Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[TBoneTX 45,571]

Who knows what's happening with our stuff, exactly?

[Ban Hammer 13,419]

9 minutes ago, Mike E said:

So US cast off kit is better than made in Russia kit? Does Russia have spin doctors that can sell that story? 

sure do - the democrats call it "free"

[OriZ 3,157]

11 hours ago, MarJhi said:

To be honest, I haven't seen anyone really "support Russia". I know much of the media likes to make the argument that if you aren't 100% behind Zelinsky then you are pro Putin. Putin is a bad guy but Zelinsky is no saint either. Unfortunately the average citizens of both countries are having their lives destroyed. 

Putin isn't a "bad guy", he's a mass murderer.

[TBoneTX 45,571]

Another (good, I think) military/political analysis.  Comments?

Quote

Can We Have Some Real Talk About Ukraine?

Kurt Schlichter  |  Posted: Mar 14, 2022 12:01 AM

 

https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2022/03/14/can-we-have-some-real-talk-about-ukraine-n2604477  

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by TBoneTX

[Mike E 11,741]

1 hour ago, TBoneTX said:

Another (good, I think) military/political analysis.  Comments?

Seems like the author believes Ukraine is going to kick Russia’s rear end too hard and the author thinks that’s bad for America.  
 

The author sounds like another neocon to me.  He thinks we should manipulate the situation in Ukraine so that Ukraine doesn’t get its  country back, and instead Russia gets to park an army on the Ukraine / Polish border.  
 

The blowback from this approach is going to harm the USA for decades. Just as USA manipulation in pre-Shah Iran, and in Latin America has harmed the USA.  
 

Let the people of Ukraine decide their fate.  Let Europe solve this problem.  Let Russia bleed if it wants.  Russia has a choice.  Russia has options.  

 

 

[Dashinka 24,628]

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

Seems like the author believes Ukraine is going to kick Russia’s rear end too hard and the author thinks that’s bad for America.  
 

The author sounds like another neocon to me.  He thinks we should manipulate the situation in Ukraine so that Ukraine doesn’t get its  country back, and instead Russia gets to park an army on the Ukraine / Polish border.  
 

The blowback from this approach is going to harm the USA for decades. Just as USA manipulation in pre-Shah Iran, and in Latin America has harmed the USA.  
 

Let the people of Ukraine decide their fate.  Let Europe solve this problem.  Let Russia bleed if it wants.  Russia has a choice.  Russia has options.  

 

 

Doesn't Russia already have a shared border with the Baltics and Poland either through Belarus, Kaliningrad, and the Russian frontier?  Personally, I would not rely on the EU to solve anything.  The EU is still dependent on Russia for so much (do you think Germany is going to completely dismantle Nord Stream 2), so I expect they will push for some level of capitulation as well.  It seems interesting to me that the leaders that went to Ukraine were from Poland, Slovenia, and the Czech Republic, and not from Germany, the UK, or France.  It is also interesting that Turkey is the one trying to facilitate the peace discussion.

 

This piece did not really touch on the back story to this, but it was still a little closer to the mark as this is really a regional ethnic conflict between two neighboring states.  

[millefleur 5,047]

4 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

It is also interesting that Turkey is the one trying to facilitate the peace discussion.

I always found that one odd given how Turkey still actively occupies half of Cyprus, which they achieved through unauthorized military invasion. And Turkey ended up getting away with it and still does, more or less.

[MarJhi 963]

7 hours ago, OriTbd said:

Putin isn't a "bad guy", he's a mass murderer.

Which makes him a bad guy.

[Mike E 11,741]

1 hour ago, Dashinka said:

Doesn't Russia already have a shared border with the Baltics and Poland either through Belarus, Kaliningrad, and the Russian frontier?

As we saw with invasion of Ukraine, expanding the front via Belarus made Ukraine  harder to defend.  It will be harder to defend Poland once Russia can invade through Ukraine 

 

Quote

 

Personally, I would not rely on the EU to solve anything

Europe keeps running to America to aolve its problems. WW1, WW2, Berlin airlift, Yugoslavia, Libya; and now Ukraine.  In the last 3, Europe has shown no willingness to sacrifice anything. while America does the heavy lifting. Enough.  
 

Our adventure in Yugoslavia was the seed for the Ukraine invasion.  Our betrayal of the agreement we had with Khaddaffi to not attack him caused North Korea and Iran to seek nuclear weapons. Libya is a cluster now thanks to America doing European bidding.   New generations of terrorists are being bred.  
 

If we follow the neocon author’s advice and manipulate Ukraine to serve the needs of the CIA and the State department, the people of Ukraine will hate us forever as do the people of Iran and people of much of Latin America. We should either help Ukraine or we should not help at all.  
 

Quote

The EU is still dependent on Russia for so much (do you think Germany is going to completely dismantle Nord Stream 2), so I expect they will push for some level of capitulation as well.

We can’t force Germany to defend itself.  
 

Quote

It seems interesting to me that the leaders that went to Ukraine were from Poland, Slovenia, and the Czech Republic, and not from Germany, the UK, or France.  It is also interesting that Turkey is the one trying to facilitate the peace discussion.

I’ve lost track.  First it was going to be India, next it was Israel, and now it is Turkey.  Surely Afghanistan will have a turn as mediator.  

Quote

 

This piece did not really touch on the back story to this, but it was still a little closer to the mark as this is really a regional ethnic conflict between two neighboring states.  

No it is a Chinese proxy war, which China is using to try to bleed America and make America’s defense of the pacific theater harder.  American interests are Guam, CNMI, and Hawaii.  We depend on our allies in the pacific to protect our interests and we in turn protect our allies there.  Once we lose South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan, we will lose Guam and CNMI.  Once lose those we lose Hawaii. Once we lose Hawaii, we lose the coasts of California, Oregon, and Washington.  
 

Australia knows once Hawaii falls, Australia will fall.  So Australia is a reliable partner for us, and that’s why they are buying our submarines.  
 

We need to take care of our business. Which means taking care of our Pacific allies and cultivating a relationship with India to keep China from getting a foothold in the Indian Ocean.  
 

Germany, France, and the UK have the economic might to handle Russia in the long run.  We won the Cold War for them.  We’ve done enough.  We should not let ourselves get sucked into China’s game here.  

[Dashinka 24,628]

22 minutes ago, Mike E said:

As we saw with invasion of Ukraine, expanding the front via Belarus made Ukraine  harder to defend.  It will be harder to defend Poland once Russia can invade through Ukraine 

 

Europe keeps running to America to aolve its problems. WW1, WW2, Berlin airlift, Yugoslavia, Libya; and now Ukraine.  In the last 3, Europe has shown no willingness to sacrifice anything. while America does the heavy lifting. Enough.  
 

Our adventure in Yugoslavia was the seed for the Ukraine invasion.  Our betrayal of the agreement we had with Khaddaffi to not attack him caused North Korea and Iran to seek nuclear weapons. Libya is a cluster now thanks to America doing European bidding.   New generations of terrorists are being bred.  
 

If we follow the neocon author’s advice and manipulate Ukraine to serve the needs of the CIA and the State department, the people of Ukraine will hate us forever as do the people of Iran and people of much of Latin America. We should either help Ukraine or we should not help at all.  
 

We can’t force Germany to defend itself.  
 

I’ve lost track.  First it was going to be India, next it was Israel, and now it is Turkey.  Surely Afghanistan will have a turn as mediator.  

No it is a Chinese proxy war, which China is using to try to bleed America and make America’s defense of the pacific theater harder.  American interests are Guam, CNMI, and Hawaii.  We depend on our allies in the pacific to protect our interests and we in turn protect our allies there.  Once we lose South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan, we will lose Guam and CNMI.  Once lose those we lose Hawaii. Once we lose Hawaii, we lose the coasts of California, Oregon, and Washington.  
 

Australia knows once Hawaii falls, Australia will fall.  So Australia is a reliable partner for us, and that’s why they are buying our submarines.  
 

We need to take care of our business. Which means taking care of our Pacific allies and cultivating a relationship with India to keep China from getting a foothold in the Indian Ocean.  
 

Germany, France, and the UK have the economic might to handle Russia in the long run.  We won the Cold War for them.  We’ve done enough.  We should not let ourselves get sucked into China’s game here.  

I would add the US/European orchestrated coup in the Ukraine added a whole lot more fuel to the fire.

[Mike E 11,741]

12 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I would add the US/European orchestrated coup in the Ukraine added a whole lot more fuel to the fire.

Completely agree.  We might yet convert Ukraine into a Central European Switzerland, which would allow the USA to finally exit NATO.  But it won’t happen until Russia is defeated in Ukraine.  

[millefleur 5,047]

11 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Germany, France, and the UK have the economic might to handle Russia in the long run.  We won the Cold War for them.  We’ve done enough.  We should not let ourselves get sucked into China’s game here.  

Europe has structured their economy and internal affairs based around reliance on the US. It's something they need to fix but it won't happen overnight. They don't have an immediate plan B to just exit out of a US-reliant foreign policy. I don't seem them voluntarily voting to give up NATO. The US would probably have to be the ones to call the shots on that....and I don't know if that'll happen either. The US government seems to have this weird fixation on NATO even when most Americans personally don't seem to. It's just another one of those huge dissonances between what average Americans cares about versus what Washington, DC cares about.

 

Basically unless we force Europe to care more about handling their own foreign affairs, they won't do it on their own. But Washington, DC does not seem interested in such a policy.

 

4 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I would add the US/European orchestrated coup in the Ukraine added a whole lot more fuel to the fire.

I'm going to put more blame here on the US, as per the famous Victoria Nuland "#### the EU" audio that got leaked because she was more in support of violent revolution/Leninist actions in Ukraine compared to the EU's more slow "watch and wait" approach. I won't link the audio here since it's a TOS violation, but here's Wikipedia even referencing it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland#Leaked_private_phone_conversation

[Dashinka 24,628]

13 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Completely agree.  We might yet convert Ukraine into a Central European Switzerland, which would allow the USA to finally exit NATO.  But it won’t happen until Russia is defeated in Ukraine.  

Honestly, I think that ship has sailed with the 2014 coup.  I think Yanukovych had a better plan to remain neutral between the EU and Russia but the West did not like that plan.

[Dashinka 24,628]

18 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

 

I'm going to put more blame here on the US, as per the famous Victoria Nuland "#### the EU" audio that got leaked because she was more in support of violent revolution/Leninist actions in Ukraine compared to the EU's more slow "watch and wait" approach. I won't link the audio here since it's a TOS violation, but here's Wikipedia even referencing it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland#Leaked_private_phone_conversation

I had forgotten about that.  Hillary's comments were also interesting.  I love how Old Joe simply went back to the Obama back benchers for his government.

 

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who had left the State Department by the time of the leak, argued in 2017 that the incident "didn't have lasting diplomatic repercussions". 

[Mike E 11,741]

15 minutes ago, millefleur said:

Europe has structured their economy and internal affairs based around reliance on the US. It's something they need to fix but it won't happen overnight. They don't have an immediate plan B to just exit out of a US-reliant foreign policy. I don't seem them voluntarily voting to give up NATO.

I’ve never suggested they give up NATO.  
 

When (not if) Russia invades the Baltics and/or Poland, I don’t see the USA putting boots on the ground there.  Plan B will be forced on Europe.  
 

15 minutes ago, millefleur said:

The US would probably have to be the ones to call the shots on that....and I don't know if that'll happen either.

I’m expecting the next president to make it happen.  
 

Our economy can’t afford NATO any more. We have to focus on the Pacific Ocean.  
 

15 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

The US government seems to have this weird fixation on NATO even when most Americans personally don't seem to. It's just another one of those huge dissonances between what average Americans cares about versus what Washington, DC cares about.

Agreed.  

15 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

Basically unless we force Europe to care more about handling their own foreign affairs, they won't do it on their own. But Washington, DC does not seem interested in such a policy.

Yes the CIA and State department are not interested.  I on the other hand am interest in sending  mass termination notices to members of both agencies.  
 

15 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

I'm going to put more blame here on the US, as per the famous Victoria Nuland "#### the EU" audio that got leaked because she was more in support of violent revolution/Leninist actions in Ukraine compared to the EU's more slow "watch and wait" approach. I won't link the audio here since it's a TOS violation, but here's Wikipedia even referencing it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland#Leaked_private_phone_conversation

yes I agree.