Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[TBoneTX 45,570]

Biden (any of them) = bribed.

[Dashinka 24,628]

How would the Russians obtain biological weapons in the Ukraine, unless they were already there?  It is interesting how Rubio followed up to create his own propaganda.  Can’t find a lot on this story in the MSM, or analysis of why Ms. Nuland was so nervous when answering except for the Rubio spin.  Who knows, but if there were biological research labs set up in the Ukraine paid for by US taxpayers, I would expect more coverage.

 

U.S. concerned Russia will obtain biological weapons in Ukraine, Nuland tells Senators
 

https://justthenews.com/government/security/us-concerned-over-possibility-russia-using-biological-weapon-ukraine

[Ban Hammer 13,417]

'Surprise move': U.S. stunned by Poland's fighter jet offer

 

The Polish government stunned Washington on Tuesday by announcing it was ready to transfer its 28 MiG-29 fighter planes to the U.S., with the understanding that they would be handed over to Ukrainian pilots fighting off the Russian invasion.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poland-transfers-mig-fighters-u-192255421.html

[millefleur 5,047]

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

How would the Russians obtain biological weapons in the Ukraine, unless they were already there?

I heard from Chinese gov't officials that there are supposedly "deadly pathogens and viruses" there, but they didn't say more. They were calling on the US to come clean and tell the world what is really in those facilities. Maybe this is scaremongering, I don't know. It certainly seems like there is something really potentially dangerous in those labs and I hope whoever gets access to them is intelligent enough to just guard it and leave it alone until we know more info.

[yuna628 9,686]

9 minutes ago, millefleur said:

I heard from Chinese gov't officials that there are supposedly "deadly pathogens and viruses" there, but they didn't say more. They were calling on the US to come clean and tell the world what is really in those facilities. Maybe this is scaremongering, I don't know. It certainly seems like there is something really potentially dangerous in those labs and I hope whoever gets access to them is intelligent enough to just guard it and leave it alone until we know more info.

This is information that has been spread on twitter, infowars, and many disreputable conspiracy-mongering places and have no basis in fact. And it is information that the Russian and Chinese government is attempting to use to justify genocide. This is the second time I've heard this nonsense this week, and it was followed up even worse, that the Putin is a wonderful person, the dead and dying are all actors, and he's only bombing biolabs and erasing child slave cabals to save the world. It's disgusting.

 

The CTRP began as a partnership between the two governments after the fall of the USSR and continued well into the Bush Jr era. https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/sections-offices/defense-threat-reduction-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/ It's goal is to help detect, eliminate, and control public health outbreaks. I'm speculating a little bit here, but I'd imagine there may be some things left around that the Soviets were tinkering with before the fall of the USSR, that should be kept secure. It's the same in every single country. This is not a new conspiracy theory either, it's been around. We provide funding and other assistance, and the facilities that exist, are run by Ukrainian scientists and under their laws. https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/02/24/us-biolabs-ukraine-russia/ And why shouldn't any free country be concerned that any facility in their sovereign territory is captured by a foreign invading force that wishes to cause harm? At this point we'll be very lucky if they don't manage to cause major nuclear meltdowns with their stupidity.

[millefleur 5,047]

5 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I'm speculating a little bit here, but I'd imagine there may be some things left around that the Soviets were tinkering with before the fall of the USSR, that should be kept secure.

And all I was doing was speculating as well, sheesh. I merely said that I heard China say something about and question what was going on (which was directly aimed at the US), I didn't say I even believed it or trusted it, and I didn't quote Infowars or any of those other insane conspiracy theories that you mentioned. I even said I thought it's probably just scaremongering.

 

10 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

 https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/02/24/us-biolabs-ukraine-russia/

The Snopes article is old and the video of Victorian Nuland is new, that's why I was merely speculating as to why she looked so concerned. I don't see that as any different from you speculating about the USSR supposedly having some leftover questionable things they were "tinkering with" in Ukraine somewhere. I don't trust any militaries or governments around the world to be telling the truth 100% about their plans and programs - hence why intelligence agencies and top secret stuff exists. Of course none of them are going to come out and just blab whatever secrets they are hiding, that would defeat the whole point of security. But just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean I believe all the crazy stuff you just mentioned (most of those conspiracy theories I've never heard of at all except just now when you mentioned them and I've never seen anyone called Putin a "wonderful person"...I don't read or follow sources like that.)

 

The point is none of us know the facts 100% about this issue because we don't hold top secret clearances nor work for the military or DoS. Thus all anyone can do is speculate. And speculate doesn't equal believes in or propagates conspiracy theories. Like you said "it's the same in every single country" - I don't trust any of them, because by definition they must keep secrets for the sake of security.

 

23 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

It's goal is to help detect, eliminate, and control public health outbreaks.

And just to point out, assuming this is that is the goal and we put speculation aside, the labs could very well still be storing infectious and deadly diseases, which does kind of prove China's point somewhat (China was just being more accusatory about the purpose, because China obviously doesn't trust the US.) It might not be for offensive purposes or even military related but if the labs do contain those pathogens (plenty of such labs keep those kinds of specimens on file for research purposes) then it should be information that we all have a right to know. I don't see what's wrong with calling that out. Regardless of what the purpose of the lab is, if there are deadly pathogens inside that could spill out into the world under the current chaotic circumstances, I think it's better for everyone to know and be aware rather than keep it a secret at this juncture.

[Dashinka 24,628]

1 hour ago, yuna628 said:

This is information that has been spread on twitter, infowars, and many disreputable conspiracy-mongering places and have no basis in fact. And it is information that the Russian and Chinese government is attempting to use to justify genocide. This is the second time I've heard this nonsense this week, and it was followed up even worse, that the Putin is a wonderful person, the dead and dying are all actors, and he's only bombing biolabs and erasing child slave cabals to save the world. It's disgusting.

 

The CTRP began as a partnership between the two governments after the fall of the USSR and continued well into the Bush Jr era. https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/sections-offices/defense-threat-reduction-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/ It's goal is to help detect, eliminate, and control public health outbreaks. I'm speculating a little bit here, but I'd imagine there may be some things left around that the Soviets were tinkering with before the fall of the USSR, that should be kept secure. It's the same in every single country. This is not a new conspiracy theory either, it's been around. We provide funding and other assistance, and the facilities that exist, are run by Ukrainian scientists and under their laws. https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/02/24/us-biolabs-ukraine-russia/ And why shouldn't any free country be concerned that any facility in their sovereign territory is captured by a foreign invading force that wishes to cause harm? At this point we'll be very lucky if they don't manage to cause major nuclear meltdowns with their stupidity.

I agree, this theory has been around, and I read the Snopes "fact check" as well.  However, Ms. Nuland was just questioned, and her demeanor and the fact that she admitted there were bio labs there they were worried about seemed to indicate something more.  All governments lie to the people, and the bureaucracy often lies to the elected leaders, so who really knows.  That being said, if there was something nefarious, it does not excuse Putin targeting civilians, there are other ways this could be brought to light.  Just look at how Israel deals with things like this.

[yuna628 9,686]

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

And all I was doing was speculating as well, sheesh. I merely said that I heard China say something about and question what was going on (which was directly aimed at the US), I didn't say I even believed it or trusted it, and I didn't quote Infowars or any of those other insane conspiracy theories that you mentioned. I even said I thought it's probably just scaremongering.

 

The Snopes article is old and the video of Victorian Nuland is new, that's why I was merely speculating as to why she looked so concerned. I don't see that as any different from you speculating about the USSR supposedly having some leftover questionable things they were "tinkering with" in Ukraine somewhere. I don't trust any militaries or governments around the world to be telling the truth 100% about their plans and programs - hence why intelligence agencies and top secret stuff exists. Of course none of them are going to come out and just blab whatever secrets they are hiding, that would defeat the whole point of security. But just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean I believe all the crazy stuff you just mentioned (most of those conspiracy theories I've never heard of at all except just now when you mentioned them and I've never seen anyone called Putin a "wonderful person"...I don't read or follow sources like that.)

 

The point is none of us know the facts 100% about this issue because we don't hold top secret clearances nor work for the military or DoS. Thus all anyone can do is speculate. And speculate doesn't equal believes in or propagates conspiracy theories. Like you said "it's the same in every single country" - I don't trust any of them, because by definition they must keep secrets for the sake of security.

 

And just to point out, assuming this is that is the goal and we put speculation aside, the labs could very well still be storing infectious and deadly diseases, which does kind of prove China's point somewhat (China was just being more accusatory about the purpose, because China obviously doesn't trust the US.) It might not be for offensive purposes or even military related but if the labs do contain those pathogens (plenty of such labs keep those kinds of specimens on file for research purposes) then it should be information that we all have a right to know. I don't see what's wrong with calling that out. Regardless of what the purpose of the lab is, if there are deadly pathogens inside that could spill out into the world under the current chaotic circumstances, I think it's better for everyone to know and be aware rather than keep it a secret at this juncture.

Whether you believe it or not or have never heard of the things I have mentioned (and I'm not saying that you do) - I'm telling you so that you are aware where the origins of these 'mentions' come from. China and Russia is spreading this out there, and it's out there *a lot* right now. They are looking for justifications for doing the horror they have created. They're trying to justify it to their own people and to those around the world that believe it. And just this week the comments from Nuland are being used in the same regard - out of context or not. We should be concerned if the Russians gain access to any secure facility for anything - but at this point I'm starting to wonder if it will matter. Nuland's concerns are valid in the same way lots of people are very concerned about the potential of nuclear war. It's quite possibly going to happen. Rubio and others in the clip are directly talking about it in the context of the same false Russian propaganda I've just mentioned before. We'd be certainly concerned if they used such facilities in a war crime, as they have no problem doing that thus far. I do not believe this will stop in Ukraine. 

[millefleur 5,047]

3 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

China and Russia is spreading this out there, and it's out there *a lot* right now. They are looking for justifications for doing the horror they have created.

Is China at war with Ukraine? Why do they deserve blame for this? This just seems unfair to start blaming China or assuming they want this war, I thought the official stance was that they are neutral? China abstained on the UN vote to condemn the invasion, same as India and many other countries. I haven't even heard the official US sources claim that this is a Russia-China alliance against Ukraine. I'm weary of going around blaming or stoking tensions with China, that's really the last thing we need right now. China has a lot more leverage over us than Russia and we should aim to keep diplomatic ties with them. I assume that's why the US hasn't banned TikTok yet or taken any other actions against China, logically so. There's also tons of misinfo coming from ordinary people right now and lots of misreported facts from sources on all sides flying due to the "fog of war", not all of it is due to malicious intent, info spreads so rapidly and people jump to conclusions. This exact scenario happened yesterday with the "hot potato" question of the MiG-29 fighter jets being sent to Ukraine. A bunch of MSM sources were claiming it was true, Poland was pushing it for it and Ukraine wanted it, so it was being circulated around as fact until the US DoD had to step in and clarify that it was "untenable" and that it would not be happening.

 

5 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

We'd be certainly concerned if they used such facilities in a war crime, as they have no problem doing that thus far. I do not believe this will stop in Ukraine. 

It won't stop at Ukraine? I haven't heard the US gov't saying anything about that, other than that they will send troops to the NATO countries (but there's nothing really new about that, it's just NATO stepping up and doing it's job for defense.) There have been official lines of communication established between Russia and the US and it's quite obvious neither side has an interest in active war with each other. There have been rumors flying around that China would invade Taiwan but nothing other than rumors on that has materialized so far. Since the US DoS got the intelligence on the Russian invasion correct, I'll wait until they make claims about who might invade who next. But so far I have not heard them claim anything of the sort, unless I missed it.

[Mike E 11,741]

1 hour ago, millefleur said:

Is China at war with Ukraine? Why do they deserve blame for this? This just seems unfair to start blaming China or assuming they want this war

It’s clear to me China wants this war.  
 

1. Russia loses.  Russia is weaker and isolated and thus becomes a client state of China like North Korea, Pakistan, and Burma.  
 

2. Russia wins the war and acquires all or part of Ukraine. This causes USA and perhaps other NATO allies to divert higher portions of their GDP to defense of Europe. And so fewer dollars competing with China economically and for the USA, fewer dollars competing with China in Asia-Pacific militarily. 
 

3. As (2) but Russia acquires territory from one or more former Soviet / Warsaw Pact countries which are now NATO countries:

 

3a. It ends a nuclear exchange, and much of Russia, Europe, and North America is in tatters. China is as ascendant as the USA was in 1945.  This is China’s dream scenario.  
 

3b. USA refuses to defend Poland, the Baltic republics, etc and NATO collapses.  The former NATO countries in Europe quickly cut non aggression   deals with Russia.  Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, NZ, and Japan then cut non aggression deals with China.  

 

Every death in Ukraine  whether a Russian, Ukrainian, or foreign legionnaire serves China’s interest.  
 

But at least we don’t have mean tweets.  

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mike E

[millefleur 5,047]

19 minutes ago, Mike E said:

It’s clear to me China wants this war.  

OK let's assume the worst about China and that they have some nefarious 5D chess reason for wanting all of this. What exactly are we, the US, supposed to do about it? (Partially rhetorical question but you're welcome to answer.)

 

20 minutes ago, Mike E said:

3a. It ends a nuclear exchange, and much of Russia, Europe, and North America is in tatters. China is as ascendant as the USA was in 1945.  This is China’s dream scenario.

Who would China trade with if the US and Europe went up in a fireball of smoke and radiation? Where would their economy go? Is their dream to build up and trade with Africa or South America? The time for the global south to rise up out of the ashes of the burnt, destroyed landscape of the north? I guess that's why India also abstained in the UN vote, they're also in on it? 🤔 Northern dominance comes to an end and the whole world order shifts, ironically, that is kind of part of what Putin wanted all along (re: his famous "multipolarity" 2005 Munich speech.)

 

22 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Every death in Ukraine  whether a Russian, Ukrainian, or foreign legionnaire serves China’s interest.  

Also I wonder why the US/Europe is encouraging Ukraine to fight and continues arming them if that's the case. You'd think that for the US as well then a neutral Ukraine where the fighting ends and the world moves on would be in their best interest. Every scenario you drew up makes it sound like the US/EU should just stay out of it and back off, broker a solution with Russia that results in a neutral Ukraine (let the fighting stop, let Russia have whatever they want landwise and put their puppet in, whatever their plans are, puppet state/annexation, etc, none of it really matters if it means stopping WW3/Chinese world dominance) and we should just back off from China and Russia in general to maintain our positions with them as trading partners, otherwise we risk either the northern hemisphere blowing up/ushering in China's inevitable take over much faster. Thus, the more we "support" and arm Ukraine, the further we just bolster China's win/win scenario in whichever the outcome may be. So, we've come full circle on the rhetorical question: the US should back down/stay out of it and help broker a deal for a neutral Ukraine, correct? What else can we do otherwise? I'm curious if there's another solution.

 

[Dashinka 24,628]

This was an interesting development yesterday.

 

Ukraine's Zelensky says he has 'cooled' on joining NATO and is open to discussions about control of Russian-backed separatist regions

 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that he had "cooled down" about Ukraine's bid to join NATO amid Russia's war with the Eastern European country.

 

"Regarding NATO, I have cooled down regarding this question long ago after we understood that NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelensky told ABC News in an exclusive interview that aired Monday night.

 

Zelensky added: "The alliance is afraid of controversial things and confrontation with Russia. I never wanted to be a country which is begging something on its knees. We are not going to be that country, and I don't want to be that president."

 

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-zelensky-says-cooled-joining-181721289.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAyqgqobkBBOr-n45NkCcxxhP8udVbBWnDdiqkzn4i5cEdxyz-n7RRctmJky5VyEX27rURopIcQKJ5L3LmfiFe_Qsz00nv_bJq0K1Y-9o1RGQ0M9Gh5Ym2zGseLeBm0WC1neiLxmhM0qLYuWVwTYQdsJIGC5NpDffuCI0s2VKkDK

[millefleur 5,047]

8 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that he had "cooled down" about Ukraine's bid to join NATO amid Russia's war with the Eastern European country.

So, if he's "cooled" on the idea, what is the end goal now? I haven't heard him say much policy-wise since this statement. 

[yuna628 9,686]

2 hours ago, millefleur said:

Is China at war with Ukraine? Why do they deserve blame for this? This just seems unfair to start blaming China or assuming they want this war, I thought the official stance was that they are neutral? China abstained on the UN vote to condemn the invasion, same as India and many other countries. I haven't even heard the official US sources claim that this is a Russia-China alliance against Ukraine. I'm weary of going around blaming or stoking tensions with China, that's really the last thing we need right now. China has a lot more leverage over us than Russia and we should aim to keep diplomatic ties with them. I assume that's why the US hasn't banned TikTok yet or taken any other actions against China, logically so. There's also tons of misinfo coming from ordinary people right now and lots of misreported facts from sources on all sides flying due to the "fog of war", not all of it is due to malicious intent, info spreads so rapidly and people jump to conclusions. This exact scenario happened yesterday with the "hot potato" question of the MiG-29 fighter jets being sent to Ukraine. A bunch of MSM sources were claiming it was true, Poland was pushing it for it and Ukraine wanted it, so it was being circulated around as fact until the US DoD had to step in and clarify that it was "untenable" and that it would not be happening.

 

It won't stop at Ukraine? I haven't heard the US gov't saying anything about that, other than that they will send troops to the NATO countries (but there's nothing really new about that, it's just NATO stepping up and doing it's job for defense.) There have been official lines of communication established between Russia and the US and it's quite obvious neither side has an interest in active war with each other. There have been rumors flying around that China would invade Taiwan but nothing other than rumors on that has materialized so far. Since the US DoS got the intelligence on the Russian invasion correct, I'll wait until they make claims about who might invade who next. But so far I have not heard them claim anything of the sort, unless I missed it.

Didn't say I blamed China, but they are certainly closely allied to Russia. Nevertheless they will utilize the same propaganda tactics Russia has and use it to their advantage. They get to sit back and watch everyone fight, and hopefully come out the victor or at the very least strengthen their efforts by allying themselves with whomever wins. And a lot of this situation seems like a win to me for them. Of course it's all a bit of a game, and they are counting on a more hopeful prospect of not a nuclear meltdown or bioweapon, or full nuclear war - but it's still all a risk that's out there and they're just going to ride this wave and see what shakes out. Countries that abstain do so for their own particular reasons - usually cowardly, but certainly out of some tactical advantage. Do they want to be on Russia's bad side or do they want to see where they can ingratiate themselves later on when the dust settles?

 

The MiG thing is an example of failure to act because of fear. It could be a giant fake out though, and perhaps the MiG's will conveniently find themselves in the capable hands of Ukrainian pilots. We'll see.

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

It’s clear to me China wants this war.  
 

1. Russia loses.  Russia is weaker and isolated and thus becomes a client state of China like North Korea, Pakistan, and Burma.  
 

2. Russia wins the war and acquires all or part of Ukraine. This causes USA and perhaps other NATO allies to divert higher portions of their GDP to defense of Europe. And so fewer dollars competing with China economically and for the USA, fewer dollars competing with China in Asia-Pacific militarily. 
 

3. As (2) but Russia acquires territory from one or more former Soviet / Warsaw Pact countries which are now NATO countries:

 

3a. It ends a nuclear exchange, and much of Russia, Europe, and North America is in tatters. China is as ascendant as the USA was in 1945.  This is China’s dream scenario.  
 

3b. USA refuses to defend Poland, the Baltic republics, etc and NATO collapses.  The former NATO countries in Europe quickly cut non aggression   deals with Russia.  Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, NZ, and Japan then cut non aggression deals with China.  

 

Every death in Ukraine  whether a Russian, Ukrainian, or foreign legionnaire serves China’s interest.  
 

But at least we don’t have mean tweets.  

I do not disagree with much of anything about this. There is even an actual textbook that spells out a bulletpoint plan of how Russia should reclaim their lost empire and reshape the world. The question is what will we end up doing about it.

25 minutes ago, millefleur said:

OK let's assume the worst about China and that they have some nefarious 5D chess reason for wanting all of this. What exactly are we, the US, supposed to do about it? (Partially rhetorical question but you're welcome to answer.)

 

Who would China trade with if the US and Europe went up in a fireball of smoke and radiation? Where would their economy go? Is their dream to build up and trade with Africa or South America? The time for the global south to rise up out of the ashes of the burnt, destroyed landscape of the north? I guess that's why India also abstained in the UN vote, they're also in on it? 🤔 Northern dominance comes to an end and the whole world order shifts, ironically, that is kind of part of what Putin wanted all along (re: his famous "multipolarity" 2005 Munich speech.)

 

Also I wonder why the US/Europe is encouraging Ukraine to fight and continues arming them if that's the case. You'd think that for the US as well then a neutral Ukraine where the fighting ends and the world moves on would be in their best interest. Every scenario you drew up makes it sound like the US/EU should just stay out of it and back off, broker a solution with Russia that results in a neutral Ukraine (let the fighting stop, let Russia have whatever they want landwise and put their puppet in, whatever their plans are, puppet state/annexation, etc, none of it really matters if it means stopping WW3/Chinese world dominance) and we should just back off from China and Russia in general to maintain our positions with them as trading partners, otherwise we risk either the northern hemisphere blowing up/ushering in China's inevitable take over much faster. Thus, the more we "support" and arm Ukraine, the further we just bolster China's win/win scenario in whichever the outcome may be. So, we've come full circle on the rhetorical question: the US should back down/stay out of it and help broker a deal for a neutral Ukraine, correct? What else can we do otherwise? I'm curious if there's another solution.

 

I think a lot of people are playing nefarious 5D chess. They always have. What can we do about it? Well that's a question I've been considering. Right now, we're not doing too much - but I fear eventually we will have no choice in the matter. Why are we encouraging them to fight? Because Ukraine is beating the pants off of Russia right now, and someone high up is leaking like a sieve. We too want to see Russia hurt big time, and we too want to sow chaos. Ukraine deserves a free and peaceful country, but I don't know how much of one they will be left with when it's over. And maybe that is the point here; what good is land if there are no people left and nothing else livable in it? Many Americans would like to see Ukraine win over Russia, as the fighting spirit right now brings back patriotic feelings we hold dear about freedom and democracy. We aren't going to do much to act though beyond what we've already done because we're scared of a world war or nuke war. And if there's a nuke war, then the time it took me to type this and the time it takes for you to reply, the time that was spent cheering on the right of a free people to exist doesn't matter. That's the more darker and disheartening feelings on my mind sometimes. My husband would say I'm cynical, but it's rather bleak. There are times he will say "but we've got to stop him.. we should have courage, we've got to help" and then I remind him that we really should sit down and watch Dr. Strangelove. When I'm in a more hopeful mood I consider that maybe there is a red line.. a point where we will actively choose to escalate and think we can get away with it without such major consequences. Don't know though. All of the things Mike points out are possible and even worse.

[Mike E 11,741]

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

OK let's assume the worst about China and that they have some nefarious 5D chess reason for wanting all of this.

I see zero virtue and goodness in the Chinese Communist Party.  An organization  that supports a regime that puts bullets in brains of pregnant women.  
 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

What exactly are we, the US, supposed to do about it? (Partially rhetorical question but you're welcome to answer.)

The right answer would have been to bring Russia into NATO in the 1990s.  Instead Clinton bombed Serbia.  
 

What the US should do about it:

* give oil companies permits to drill on every lease they have on USA territory

* uncancel Keystone XL

* re-open coal powered plants

* issue permits for new  nuclear power plants

* export energy to Europe 

* cancel regulations on CO2 emissions 

* cancel Paris agreement 

* pass laws that punish states for punishing residents that use roof top solar power 

* Inform NATO allies that the USA will leave the alliance if it continues to rely on Russia for energy, give a timeline, and stick to it.  

* give the CCP/Putinista axis a quick loss in Burma: establish a no fly zone and let the ethnic armies topple the junta. This will remind China (and India) that America can project power. 
* Stop the new Iran nuclear deal

* Make it clear to the axis that the USA will bleed Russia in Ukraine the way it bled Russia in Afghanistan. 

* freeze non military discretionary spending until budget comes into surplus 

* construct a supply chain that provides alternatives to China whether domestic or imported from an ally 

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

Who would China trade with if the US and Europe went up in a fireball of smoke and radiation?

US and Europe. Just like the USA traded with Europe and Japan after the USA destroyed Europe and Japan in WW2. 
 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

  Northern dominance comes to an end

?

 

China is in the northern Hemisphere.  Africa’s time of ascendancy is inevitable but not for another 200 years. 
 

America’s goal should be to prevent CCP from ever being ascendant.  
 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 Also I wonder why the US/Europe is encouraging Ukraine to fight and continues arming them if that's the case. You'd think that for the US as well then a neutral Ukraine where the fighting ends and the world moves on would be in their best interest.

Yes well Obama messed that up badly.  

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

Every scenario you drew up makes it sound like the US/EU should just stay out of it and back off,

The EU cannot back off because Russia will not stop at Ukraine.  The EU has already incorporated former Soviet and former Warsaw Pact countries into its Union.  In the end when backed into a corner the EU will have no choice to fight.  
 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

broker a solution with Russia that results in a neutral Ukraine (let the fighting stop, let Russia have whatever they want landwise

I doubt Ukrainians will put up with it.  It will be decades of terrorism such as we saw in Ireland and with the Basques.  Regardless it isn’t our place to force Ukrainians to cede territory.  Forcing Serbia to cede territory led directly to the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine has to win its country back.  

 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

and put their puppet in, whatever their plans are, puppet state/annexation, etc, none of it really matters if it means stopping WW3/Chinese world dominance) and we should just back off from China and Russia in general

I don’t see how backing off from China stops China.  
 

17 minutes ago, millefleur said:

 

  I'm curious if there's another solution.

 

In summary,

 

1. bring back the MAGA agenda which did keep the peace, degrade terrorism, and was degrading China, 

 

2. Energy independence for the Western bloc + Japan, ANZ, SK, Singapore, and friends 

 

3. Fiscal prudence 

 

4. Diversify supply chains among USA and allies