The Return of Al Qaeda

[GaryC 7]

So, what do we do now?

Take the advice that an expert panel has given the blockheads at 1600 Penn Ave over half a year ago and start developing the immediate and mid-term steps along that advice. Force this idiot President of ours out of the fcuking disaster he has gotten this country into with his stubborn ignorance. Iraq is lost. It has been lost for the past 4 years. Time we face that reality: When you're in the hole trying to get out, the most important thing is to stop digging.

Iraq is only lost when we give up.

No, George, it was lost the minute you went in not knowing what you're doing.

Remember the first order of the day: Stop digging.

No Mertha, we loose when we give up. We are not digging, we are winning. You just don't want to admit that. Wars are not won on a timetable. It's to bad you don't have the stomach for it. I am glad we have people of courage that are willing to do what it takes and ignore the cowards of this country.

Too bad the "gung-ho" cowboys of this country aren't interested or equipped for a real debate as to what we're actually doing. I don't know about you - but I've had enough of bloody slogans that get people killed.

Judging by the attempted attacks in the UK last week - claims of 'victory' would seem to be rather premature.

I didn't say victory I said winning. It's far from over. This will take decades. The only other choice is to do like ET or Dan want to do and tuck tail, run back home and bend over for the terrorists.

I like the way you try to turn our arguments into "slogans. The slogans don't kill people, the terrorists do. Fighting them isn't a slogan, it's the only way to survive. You can hide under your bed if you like, or you can deny that there is even a problem. That will solve nothing. Fighting and winning is the only thing that will work.

[Dan J 277]

Don't give people a reason to support or join one of those groups. Which means to stop meddling in the middle east as well as forcing Israel to make peace with its neighbors. There are other things we can do as well to counteract the resentment many people have to the US. But it will take years and well, doesn't make our friends at Haliburton and Blackwater much money. Press releases and propaganda don't work, but improving the lives of many people in the middle east will. Improving their lives, doesn't mean leaving their country in a state of perpetual violence.

Al Queda won't automatically disappear, but it will fade as its popular support fades. Without a supply of recruits and money, it wont be able to continue its goals.

How is Israel to make peace with people that want them wiped off the map? And how do we improve the lives of people in the Middle East when they are bent on slaughtering or oppressing one another?

Your grouping all the people in the middle east as one people and one ideology. Not surprisingly, thats how some people in the middle east see us. But we arent that way. We are a nation of many people and many ideas, while some support the war in Iraq and are poor polices in the middle east, not all of us do.

Not everyone is bent on the destruction of Israel, but we would go a long way to making many people happy if they returned the land taken in the 1967 war. No matter what we do, there will still be people bent on the destruction of Israel, just like with us, there will be people who will be unhappy until the middle east becomes a US state (or at least a puppet). But we can the majority of the people against extremism.

Israel doesn't have to make peace with everybody, just the majority. Just like we have liberals and conservatives in the US, The Palestinians have Hamas and Fatah. While a majority of support has been in the past for Fatah, Hamas has gained more power due to the actions of the west. With the Palestinians and the US, there are those who see violence as a solution and others who see diplomacy as a solution. Everybody else in the middle is stuck choosing sides. But just like how support for the Iraq war has turned in the US, support for violence among Palestinians can also be turned. But only with the right actions.

[GaryC 7]

Don't give people a reason to support or join one of those groups. Which means to stop meddling in the middle east as well as forcing Israel to make peace with its neighbors. There are other things we can do as well to counteract the resentment many people have to the US. But it will take years and well, doesn't make our friends at Haliburton and Blackwater much money. Press releases and propaganda don't work, but improving the lives of many people in the middle east will. Improving their lives, doesn't mean leaving their country in a state of perpetual violence.

Al Queda won't automatically disappear, but it will fade as its popular support fades. Without a supply of recruits and money, it wont be able to continue its goals.

How is Israel to make peace with people that want them wiped off the map? And how do we improve the lives of people in the Middle East when they are bent on slaughtering or oppressing one another?

Your grouping all the people in the middle east as one people and one ideology. Not surprisingly, thats how some people in the middle east see us. But we arent that way. We are a nation of many people and many ideas, while some support the war in Iraq and are poor polices in the middle east, not all of us do.

Not everyone is bent on the destruction of Israel, but we would go a long way to making many people happy if they returned the land taken in the 1967 war. No matter what we do, there will still be people bent on the destruction of Israel, just like with us, there will be people who will be unhappy until the middle east becomes a US state (or at least a puppet). But we can the majority of the people against extremism.

Israel doesn't have to make peace with everybody, just the majority. Just like we have liberals and conservatives in the US, The Palestinians have Hamas and Fatah. While a majority of support has been in the past for Fatah, Hamas has gained more power due to the actions of the west. With the Palestinians and the US, there are those who see violence as a solution and others who see diplomacy as a solution. Everybody else in the middle is stuck choosing sides. But just like how support for the Iraq war has turned in the US, support for violence among Palestinians can also be turned. But only with the right actions.

More pie in the sky. Name me 2 Arab countries that don't want Israel destroyed. They are surrounded on all sides with countries that want them gone. Your solution is to give up. Sorry, that isn't an answer.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

the islamic extremist are waging jihad. the biggest problem is this really boils down to a religious war, being fought globally. and faith is the 1 thing noone can question, and most people are the most passionate about. the islamic extremist hate anyone who isn't islamic, and somehow twist the islamic religion into a justification to kill anyone who doesn't have the same belief as them. i don't understand it anyway.

i don't think we can ever leave iraq: we break it we own it. Colin Powell i'm sure you've all seen this- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17722026

the world is is in a bad way & i think its going to get worse. i don't think admitting defeat & coming home is in anyone's best intrest. if we're not going to fight this war over seas, we're going to fight it in the US. i don't think anyone wants to see that. this war has been going on for centuries on 9/11 it finally reached US shores.

Every religion and every group has a certain number of people who could be considered extreme. Most of time, they have no power. As they don't have much support from other than the tiny fraction of people who support their cause. This isn't simply an Islamic thing. There have been Christians who have selectively used parts of the bible to support their extreme causes, in some cases resorting to terrorism or other violence in the name of God.

But what makes the situation of Islamic terrorism different in modern times, is the wide spread public support that its gotten. Much of it is due to the policies of the west in the middle east. Go to Islamic countries outside of the middle east and you will find Islamic extremism has very little support and those countries are also democratic (albeit a bit corrupt but thats another issue).

I just love the way you blame us for everything. The facts are that the terrorists do not have wide spread support. They are a small but well funded bunch of lunatics that are supported by power hungry and corrupt governments that see this as a way to gain and hold power. Your world view is so slanted against the US I am surprised that you would even call yourself an American.

Bin Laden's lot are - but thats against a backdrop of more general fundamentalist violence that is related to tribal / cultural disputes. That's what has popular support - but it gets lumped under the umbrella of Al Qaeda because for sake of appearances (i.e. to us) they are more or less the same. Suggesting that Al Qaeda is some sort of evil "Robin Hood and his Merry Men" is a little simplistic. They may not have popular support - but we're not talking about a single coherent organization here - but rather a splintered mess of rival factions, some of whom are affiliated to Al Qaeda; others are not.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Name me 2 Arab countries that don't want Israel destroyed.

Egypt, Jordan and Qatar have full diplomatic ties with Israel.

[Marc and Olga 0]

So, what do we do now?

Take the advice that an expert panel has given the blockheads at 1600 Penn Ave over half a year ago and start developing the immediate and mid-term steps along that advice. Force this idiot President of ours out of the fcuking disaster he has gotten this country into with his stubborn ignorance. Iraq is lost. It has been lost for the past 4 years. Time we face that reality: When you're in the hole trying to get out, the most important thing is to stop digging.

Iraq is only lost when we give up.

No, George, it was lost the minute you went in not knowing what you're doing.

Remember the first order of the day: Stop digging.

No Mertha, we loose when we give up. We are not digging, we are winning. You just don't want to admit that. Wars are not won on a timetable. It's to bad you don't have the stomach for it. I am glad we have people of courage that are willing to do what it takes and ignore the cowards of this country.

Too bad the "gung-ho" cowboys of this country aren't interested or equipped for a real debate as to what we're actually doing. I don't know about you - but I've had enough of bloody slogans that get people killed.

Judging by the attempted attacks in the UK last week - claims of 'victory' would seem to be rather premature.

I didn't say victory I said winning. It's far from over. This will take decades. The only other choice is to do like ET or Dan want to do and tuck tail, run back home and bend over for the terrorists.

I like the way you try to turn our arguments into "slogans. The slogans don't kill people, the terrorists do. Fighting them isn't a slogan, it's the only way to survive. You can hide under your bed if you like, or you can deny that there is even a problem. That will solve nothing. Fighting and winning is the only thing that will work.

Ah, I so missed these discussions, the other day I read a comic that fits certain people here well...

and here it is...

[Dan J 277]

the islamic extremist are waging jihad. the biggest problem is this really boils down to a religious war, being fought globally. and faith is the 1 thing noone can question, and most people are the most passionate about. the islamic extremist hate anyone who isn't islamic, and somehow twist the islamic religion into a justification to kill anyone who doesn't have the same belief as them. i don't understand it anyway.

i don't think we can ever leave iraq: we break it we own it. Colin Powell i'm sure you've all seen this- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17722026

the world is is in a bad way & i think its going to get worse. i don't think admitting defeat & coming home is in anyone's best intrest. if we're not going to fight this war over seas, we're going to fight it in the US. i don't think anyone wants to see that. this war has been going on for centuries on 9/11 it finally reached US shores.

Every religion and every group has a certain number of people who could be considered extreme. Most of time, they have no power. As they don't have much support from other than the tiny fraction of people who support their cause. This isn't simply an Islamic thing. There have been Christians who have selectively used parts of the bible to support their extreme causes, in some cases resorting to terrorism or other violence in the name of God.

But what makes the situation of Islamic terrorism different in modern times, is the wide spread public support that its gotten. Much of it is due to the policies of the west in the middle east. Go to Islamic countries outside of the middle east and you will find Islamic extremism has very little support and those countries are also democratic (albeit a bit corrupt but thats another issue).

I just love the way you blame us for everything. The facts are that the terrorists do not have wide spread support. They are a small but well funded bunch of lunatics that are supported by power hungry and corrupt governments that see this as a way to gain and hold power. Your world view is so slanted against the US I am surprised that you would even call yourself an American.

Our leaders our always right, they require our devotion and worship.

Gary, what you are describing is not democracy, its fascism. A blind devotion to the state. But guess what our leaders are human too, and they make mistakes. And they have made many mistakes leading up to what we have now. And there is nothing more American than to dissent when we think our leaders are making a mistake whether intentionally or not. I guess if you don't care for dissent, God save the Queen?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I didn't say victory I said winning. It's far from over. This will take decades. The only other choice is to do like ET or Dan want to do and tuck tail, run back home and bend over for the terrorists.

I like the way you try to turn our arguments into "slogans. The slogans don't kill people, the terrorists do. Fighting them isn't a slogan, it's the only way to survive. You can hide under your bed if you like, or you can deny that there is even a problem. That will solve nothing. Fighting and winning is the only thing that will work.

Slogans get people to join the armed forces, get people to encourage others to do so, and get unequivocal enthusiastic support for trite statements about "victory", and poorly planned, badly thought out government policies.

I pointed out this to you several times before - but let me ask you again. What threat exactly does Al Qaeda realistically pose to the long term survival of the United States?

Read carefully before you answer... Don't stop at "What threat", but at "long term survival of the United States".

If we're talking threats - the War of Independence and the US Civil War posed a far greater threat to the values of this country than I think Al Qaeda et al can or ever will.

[GaryC 7]

I just love the way you blame us for everything. The facts are that the terrorists do not have wide spread support. They are a small but well funded bunch of lunatics that are supported by power hungry and corrupt governments that see this as a way to gain and hold power. Your world view is so slanted against the US I am surprised that you would even call yourself an American.

Bin Laden's lot are - but thats against a backdrop of more general fundamentalist violence that is related to tribal / cultural disputes. That's what has popular support - but it gets lumped under the umbrella of Al Qaeda because for sake of appearances (i.e. to us) they are more or less the same. Suggesting that Al Qaeda is some sort of evil "Robin Hood and his Merry Men" is a little simplistic. They may not have popular support - but we're not talking about a single coherent organization here - but rather a splintered mess of rival factions, some of whom are affiliated to Al Qaeda; others are not.

That is why it is so hard to fight them. It is also why it will take a long time to win. But it is a fight that we must take on and we must see it through to the end. I don't care if they are all card carrying Al Qaeda or some other group. If they set off IED's in markets, strap on bomb vests or plan attacks in the west then they need to be taken out. The idea that we can somehow placate these nut cases is dangerous. They are fighting us because of our way of life, our love for freedom and our diversity. The only way they will stop is if we give those things up. We could pull all troops out of the ME, stop all contact with Israel and pull back to our borders and it will not stop them.

[Dan J 277]

Name me 2 Arab countries that don't want Israel destroyed.

Egypt, Jordan and Qatar have full diplomatic ties with Israel.

While they may or many not have diplomatic ties, Indonesia and Malaysia certainly are not bend on destroying Israel. Even fatah is trying to work for peace. But you don't see that do you Gary? You just see Mulsim and get out your gun.

[GaryC 7]

So, what do we do now?

Take the advice that an expert panel has given the blockheads at 1600 Penn Ave over half a year ago and start developing the immediate and mid-term steps along that advice. Force this idiot President of ours out of the fcuking disaster he has gotten this country into with his stubborn ignorance. Iraq is lost. It has been lost for the past 4 years. Time we face that reality: When you're in the hole trying to get out, the most important thing is to stop digging.

Iraq is only lost when we give up.

No, George, it was lost the minute you went in not knowing what you're doing.

Remember the first order of the day: Stop digging.

No Mertha, we loose when we give up. We are not digging, we are winning. You just don't want to admit that. Wars are not won on a timetable. It's to bad you don't have the stomach for it. I am glad we have people of courage that are willing to do what it takes and ignore the cowards of this country.

Too bad the "gung-ho" cowboys of this country aren't interested or equipped for a real debate as to what we're actually doing. I don't know about you - but I've had enough of bloody slogans that get people killed.

Judging by the attempted attacks in the UK last week - claims of 'victory' would seem to be rather premature.

I didn't say victory I said winning. It's far from over. This will take decades. The only other choice is to do like ET or Dan want to do and tuck tail, run back home and bend over for the terrorists.

I like the way you try to turn our arguments into "slogans. The slogans don't kill people, the terrorists do. Fighting them isn't a slogan, it's the only way to survive. You can hide under your bed if you like, or you can deny that there is even a problem. That will solve nothing. Fighting and winning is the only thing that will work.

Ah, I so missed these discussions, the other day I read a comic that fits certain people here well...

and here it is...

Ted Rall is a traitor. Anything he says has the same weight as Micheal Moore.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I just love the way you blame us for everything. The facts are that the terrorists do not have wide spread support. They are a small but well funded bunch of lunatics that are supported by power hungry and corrupt governments that see this as a way to gain and hold power. Your world view is so slanted against the US I am surprised that you would even call yourself an American.

Bin Laden's lot are - but thats against a backdrop of more general fundamentalist violence that is related to tribal / cultural disputes. That's what has popular support - but it gets lumped under the umbrella of Al Qaeda because for sake of appearances (i.e. to us) they are more or less the same. Suggesting that Al Qaeda is some sort of evil "Robin Hood and his Merry Men" is a little simplistic. They may not have popular support - but we're not talking about a single coherent organization here - but rather a splintered mess of rival factions, some of whom are affiliated to Al Qaeda; others are not.

That is why it is so hard to fight them. It is also why it will take a long time to win. But it is a fight that we must take on and we must see it through to the end. I don't care if they are all card carrying Al Qaeda or some other group. If they set off IED's in markets, strap on bomb vests or plan attacks in the west then they need to be taken out. The idea that we can somehow placate these nut cases is dangerous. They are fighting us because of our way of life, our love for freedom and our diversity. The only way they will stop is if we give those things up. We could pull all troops out of the ME, stop all contact with Israel and pull back to our borders and it will not stop them.

What long term changes do you think constantly fighting these people will actually bring about? Do you really think that what I described can be defeated by conventional military means?

[GaryC 7]

Our leaders our always right, they require our devotion and worship.

Gary, what you are describing is not democracy, its fascism. A blind devotion to the state. But guess what our leaders are human too, and they make mistakes. And they have made many mistakes leading up to what we have now. And there is nothing more American than to dissent when we think our leaders are making a mistake whether intentionally or not. I guess if you don't care for dissent, God save the Queen?

Ahh, the old "if you are for the war and support what we are doing I am a fascist" line. Spare me. That is just as valid as if I would say "anyone that opposes the war is a coward". That also isn't true. I just happen to agree with fighting back. That does not make me a fascist. You can bend over and take it in the azz from the terrorists if you want, I for one will always want to fight back.

[Jamie76 0]

I just love the way you blame us for everything. The facts are that the terrorists do not have wide spread support. They are a small but well funded bunch of lunatics that are supported by power hungry and corrupt governments that see this as a way to gain and hold power. Your world view is so slanted against the US I am surprised that you would even call yourself an American.

Bin Laden's lot are - but thats against a backdrop of more general fundamentalist violence that is related to tribal / cultural disputes. That's what has popular support - but it gets lumped under the umbrella of Al Qaeda because for sake of appearances (i.e. to us) they are more or less the same. Suggesting that Al Qaeda is some sort of evil "Robin Hood and his Merry Men" is a little simplistic. They may not have popular support - but we're not talking about a single coherent organization here - but rather a splintered mess of rival factions, some of whom are affiliated to Al Qaeda; others are not.

That is why it is so hard to fight them. It is also why it will take a long time to win. But it is a fight that we must take on and we must see it through to the end. I don't care if they are all card carrying Al Qaeda or some other group. If they set off IED's in markets, strap on bomb vests or plan attacks in the west then they need to be taken out. The idea that we can somehow placate these nut cases is dangerous. They are fighting us because of our way of life, our love for freedom and our diversity. The only way they will stop is if we give those things up. We could pull all troops out of the ME, stop all contact with Israel and pull back to our borders and it will not stop them.

Gary, I trust that you have signed up for the war on terror? Right? I love arm chair quarterbacks.

[Dan J 277]

So, what do we do now?

Take the advice that an expert panel has given the blockheads at 1600 Penn Ave over half a year ago and start developing the immediate and mid-term steps along that advice. Force this idiot President of ours out of the fcuking disaster he has gotten this country into with his stubborn ignorance. Iraq is lost. It has been lost for the past 4 years. Time we face that reality: When you're in the hole trying to get out, the most important thing is to stop digging.

Iraq is only lost when we give up.

No, George, it was lost the minute you went in not knowing what you're doing.

Remember the first order of the day: Stop digging.

No Mertha, we loose when we give up. We are not digging, we are winning. You just don't want to admit that. Wars are not won on a timetable. It's to bad you don't have the stomach for it. I am glad we have people of courage that are willing to do what it takes and ignore the cowards of this country.

Too bad the "gung-ho" cowboys of this country aren't interested or equipped for a real debate as to what we're actually doing. I don't know about you - but I've had enough of bloody slogans that get people killed.

Judging by the attempted attacks in the UK last week - claims of 'victory' would seem to be rather premature.

I didn't say victory I said winning. It's far from over. This will take decades. The only other choice is to do like ET or Dan want to do and tuck tail, run back home and bend over for the terrorists.

I like the way you try to turn our arguments into "slogans. The slogans don't kill people, the terrorists do. Fighting them isn't a slogan, it's the only way to survive. You can hide under your bed if you like, or you can deny that there is even a problem. That will solve nothing. Fighting and winning is the only thing that will work.

Ah, I so missed these discussions, the other day I read a comic that fits certain people here well...

and here it is...

Ted Rall is a traitor. Anything he says has the same weight as Micheal Moore.

Wow, do you know what that word means? to use it so lightly? So anyone who criticizes you or your cause is a traitor. Well, I think you will do well as a dictator, they they agree with you, they are a traitor. If you really believe in democracy and America and not fascism, you wouldn't use that word so lightly.