Canadian Health Care after activating US Visa (split)

[From_CAN_2_US 1,106]

7 hours ago, DS5535 said:

Can I just keep my mouth closed? How would Alberta Health know? Also for some reason my embassy was montreal (Quebec) not Alberta.

 

Cross from Different Province?

Claiming Health benefits (using your provincial healthcare) after you have crossed the border and become an LPR of US, is healthcare fraud (at least in Ontario, but likely also in Alberta). Hence here on VJ we advise you against doing that.

 

Whether the province can find out or not, is, in my opinion immaterial, unless you are looking to get away with healthcare fraud. To that end, there was news about Canada intending on tracking Entry/ Exit data, although I do not know how far they have implemented that. 

[TripleCity 20]

Typically you have to be out of the country or province for some months before they deem you no longer eligible for health coverage. For example, in Ontario if you are out of the country for 7 months then you technically don’t have coverage. But it doesn’t mean that it will be identified. Many senior citizens stay out of the country for months and come back without having any gap in coverage. Also might depend on the expiry on your health card. The Ontario government was waiving the waiting period of 3 months of residency in the province in order to reinstate coverage  - due to Covid. Because some people couldn’t return due to travel restrictions etc. Long story short check your provincial health website it should state what the eligibility rules are and requirements for reinstatement. If you call, ask a general, hypothetical question do not share your health card, they could flag you or cancel your card if you passed the allowable time frame. If you will not use it while abroad, then it’s all the same in my opinion, can leave it active less paperwork if you return and or if making trips back occasionally during the transition year. If they want to suspend your coverage they can through their own process for identifying ppl. However, They would consider it fraud if you used or try to claim benefits but actually was ineligible. 

[ice-qube 649]

1 minute ago, From_CAN_2_US said:

Claiming Health benefits (using your provincial healthcare) after you have crossed the border and become an LPR of US, is healthcare fraud (at least in Ontario, but likely also in Alberta). Hence here on VJ we advise you against doing that.

 

Whether the province can find out or not, is, in my opinion immaterial, unless you are looking to get away with healthcare fraud. To that end, there was news about Canada intending on tracking Entry/ Exit data, although I do not know how far they have implemented that. 

Canada and the US both track entry and exit data, and no doubt can share with each other when required, and anyone counselling any fraudulent behaviour should probably be booted off here immediately. I think there is a legitimate legal question, though in a scenario such as: someone has crossed at POE to immigrate because of time constraints (i.e., medical is expiring soon), but still needs to come back to Canada for a few months to finish up winding down their affairs here. It is fair to wonder what is the lawful status of their provincial health care is during this time when, for all intents and purposes, they are still resident in Canada. Does anyone have any statute or case law that they can point to that deals with this?

[ice-qube 649]

7 minutes ago, TripleCity said:

Typically you have to be out of the country or province for some months before they deem you no longer eligible for health coverage. For example, in Ontario if you are out of the country for 7 months then you technically don’t have coverage. But it doesn’t mean that it will be identified. Many senior citizens stay out of the country for months and come back without having any gap in coverage. Also might depend on the expiry on your health card. The Ontario government was waiving the waiting period of 3 months of residency in the province in order to reinstate coverage  - due to Covid. Because some people couldn’t return due to travel restrictions etc. Long story short check your provincial health website it should state what the eligibility rules are and requirements for reinstatement. If you call, ask a general, hypothetical question do not share your health card, they could flag you or cancel your card if you passed the allowable time frame. If you will not use it while abroad, then it’s all the same in my opinion, can leave it active less paperwork if you return and or if making trips back occasionally during the transition year. If they want to suspend your coverage they can through their own process for identifying ppl. However, They would consider it fraud if you used or try to claim benefits but actually was ineligible. 

I think there is a legitimate question about all this. I just thought of another scenario: snowbirds. Snowbirds live in both countries, and some actually have permanent residence in the US. If crossing the border and claiming their residence in the US means they lose their health benefits, how then do they get them back? 

[TripleCity 20]

9 minutes ago, ice-qube said:

I think there is a legitimate question about all this. I just thought of another scenario: snowbirds. Snowbirds live in both countries, and some actually have permanent residence in the US. If crossing the border and claiming their residence in the US means they lose their health benefits, how then do they get them back? 

B2 visa allows Canadians to stay in the US for 6 months. Although Canadians don’t have to apply for a B2 visa. It’s automatic but it is still a B2 if you look at the I-94 arrival / departure record form on CBP website that’s the type of visitor visa. Most snowbirds only stay for 6 months. The allowable time to be out of the province/ country and still maintain coverage is about 7 months. So if they stay 6 months their Ontario health coverage through OHIP is maintained. I don’t know about the other provinces though. Just offering for comparison. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by TripleCity

[ice-qube 649]

Just now, TripleCity said:

B2 visa allows Canadians to stay in the US for 6 months. Most snowbirds only stay for 6 months. The allowable time to be out of the province/ country and still maintain coverage is about 7 months. So if they stay 6 months their Ontario health coverage through OHIP is maintained. I don’t know about the other provinces though. Just offering for comparison. 

Yes, that indeed is what it says on OHIP website. The question here relates to the claim that you automatically lose your benefits once you cross the POE and declare immigration. If that is true, how did a Canadian citizen/ US permanent resident snowbird not lose it as soon as they crossed when they went into the US to claim their PR for the first time? Or did they, and they got it back somehow? Do you understand what I am getting at here?

[NykahDeah 71]

7 minutes ago, ice-qube said:

Yes, that indeed is what it says on OHIP website. The question here relates to the claim that you automatically lose your benefits once you cross the POE and declare immigration. If that is true, how did a Canadian citizen/ US permanent resident snowbird not lose it as soon as they crossed when they went into the US to claim their PR for the first time? Or did they, and they got it back somehow? Do you understand what I am getting at here?

Crossing on a visitor visa and activating an immigration visa are two different things. A snowbird never immigrates, they are visitors, their place of residence remains Canada even if they are physically in another country for 6 months. With an immigration visa you are declaring you are no longer a resident of Canada, you can not be a resident of two countries at the same time, at least not in Canada's eyes. Everything in Canada is based on Residency.

[ice-qube 649]

3 minutes ago, NykahDeah said:

Crossing on a visitor visa and activating an immigration visa are two different things. A snowbird never immigrates, they are visitors, their place of residence remains Canada even if they are physically in another country for 6 months. With an immigration visa you are declaring you are no longer a resident of Canada, you can not be a resident of two countries at the same time, at least not in Canada's eyes. Everything in Canada is based on Residency.

You are not exactly correct. Snowbirds can be residents, or not. Permanent residence status is not the same thing as "place of residence", which comes into play in various ways. You are conflating two different things.

[ice-qube 649]

12 minutes ago, NykahDeah said:

Crossing on a visitor visa and activating an immigration visa are two different things. A snowbird never immigrates, they are visitors, their place of residence remains Canada even if they are physically in another country for 6 months. With an immigration visa you are declaring you are no longer a resident of Canada, you can not be a resident of two countries at the same time, at least not in Canada's eyes. Everything in Canada is based on Residency.

A snowbird, many and perhaps most, may cross on a visitor visa. However, *some* snowbirds also have a US Green Card. Therefore, such a person does not cross on a visitor visa. Some of them maintain their "primary" residence (tax purposes) in Canada while also keeping their Green Card status, spending time in the United States each year at a "temporary" residence. In some cases, they may even have to pay taxes in both places. Thus the question. How does a snowbird in such a scenario keep their health benefits, because they certainly do have them, if the claim is correct that merely going to a POE and declaring residence of the US makes you lose the benefits automatically? This is not consistent.

[Danii 312]

13 minutes ago, ice-qube said:

You are not exactly correct. Snowbirds can be residents, or not. Permanent residence status is not the same thing as "place of residence", which comes into play in various ways. You are conflating two different things.

Not sure about other provinces, but to keep OHIP, the website says this:

 

If you plan to be outside Canada for more than seven months in any 12-month period you can keep your OHIP coverage for up to two years if you:

 

-have a valid health card

-make Ontario your primary home

-will be in Ontario for at least 153 days a year in each of the two years immediately before you leave the country

 

Do snowbirds still make Ontario their primary home? Maybe that's why they are still eligible. (Just saw your comment above, I'll keep digging for info)

Edited January 11, 2022 by Danii

[ice-qube 649]

Just now, Danii said:

Not sure about other provinces, but to keep OHIP, the website says this:

 

If you plan to be outside Canada for more than seven months in any 12-month period you can keep your OHIP coverage for up to two years if you:

 

-have a valid health card

-make Ontario your primary home

-will be in Ontario for at least 153 days a year in each of the two years immediately before you leave the country

 

Do snowbirds still make Ontario their primary home? Maybe that's why they are still eligible. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, a snowbird could well make Ontario their primary residence but still have a US permanent residence status. That is why I think the claim that merely going to the POE and declaring you are there to claim permanent residence in the US *automatically* nullifies your provincial health benefits is suspect.

[NykahDeah 71]

5 minutes ago, ice-qube said:

A snowbird, many and perhaps most, may cross on a visitor visa. However, *some* snowbirds also have a US Green Card. Therefore, such a person does not cross on a visitor visa. Some of them maintain their "primary" residence (tax purposes) in Canada while also keeping their Green Card status, spending time in the United States each year at a "temporary" residence. In some cases, they may even have to pay taxes in both places. Thus the question. How does a snowbird in such a scenario keep their health benefits, because they certainly do have them, if the claim is correct that merely going to a POE and declaring residence of the US makes you lose the benefits automatically? This is not consistent.

Tax residency and health care eligibility have different times in residency. It's also a provincial vs federal thing...

 

For QC it's 183 days in a calendar year or less to still be eligible for healthcare but for taxation in the US it could be an accumulated 183 days over multiple years or a continuous 31 days, and the green card requirements are interesting too.. so really from a tax perspective you could be a non-resident of Canada but still be resident for health, some people play this game really well, I'm personally not interested in trying to fudge any system, I just want my visa so I can reunite with the hubby XD.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by NykahDeah

[ice-qube 649]

Just now, NykahDeah said:

Tax residency and health care eligibility have different times in residency.

 

For QC it's 183 days in a calendar year or less to still be eligible for healthcare but for taxation in the US it could be an accumulated 183 days over multiple years or a continuous 31 days, and the green card requirements are interesting too.. so really from a tax perspective you could be a non-resident of Canada but still be resident for health, some people play this game really well, I'm personally not interested in trying to fudge any system, I just want my visa so I can reunite with the hubby XD.

 

 

Obviously, and nothing of what I am saying here in the interest of gaming the system, either--I am merely trying to investigate the actual *legitimate* rules surrounding provincial health care benefits status. A statement was made that you just automatically lose them upon entering POE. I am arguing that it is not clear that this is automatically the case.

[Danii 312]

@ice-qube @NykahDeah (not sure who else was interested in knowing) but I just called service Ontario/OHIP to clarify. My call got transferred a few time so I guess even their general team isn't sure. Eventually someone asked their supervisor, and they said that as soon as I cross and intend to live in the US permanently/for the foreseeable future, I'm considered a non resident and no longer eligible for coverage, even if I travel back to Canada the same day. I think the key word here was permanently, as that may imply that my Ontario address would no longer be my primary one? I'm not sure, I should've clarified 😂

Edited January 11, 2022 by Danii

[ice-qube 649]

1 minute ago, Danii said:

@ice-qube @NykahDeah (not sure who else was interested in knowing) but I just called service Ontario/OHIP to clarify. My call got transferred a few time so I guess even their general team isn't sure. Eventually someone asked their supervisor, and they said that as soon as I cross and intend to live in the US permanently/for the foreseeable future, I'm considered a non resident and no longer eligible for coverage, even if I travel back to Canada the same day. I think the key word here was permanently, as that may imply that my Ontario address would no longer be my primary one? I'm not sure, I should've clarified 😂

Ya, and these are petty functionaries in the system, but not the ones who actually know what cases that are complex are. I bet you anything that they would be very confused as soon as a complex case comes up, and they will be unable to actually answer a more complex question.