When to schedule DS-160 for ASC appointment?

[Jack70 0]

Hello Good People,

Greetings to you in fall and spring (if in the southern hemisphere).

 

Situation: Am in process of declaring my son a US citizen. All paperwork has been filed (DNA, birth cert, etc.). Son lives in Thailand with his mom. He is 16. Will want to come to college here by 18 and start a new life here. Mom will remain in Thailand. Filled out form N-600K and have paid the fee. (Note all passages in quotes are exactly as seen on the form.)

Questions: On the date of Nov 19, 2021, his mother and he (living in Thailand) received the form I-797C, indicating that the USCIS will be taking action on our case shortly. The form says we should prepare to be scheduled for an appointment at a "USCIS Application Support Center (ASC)."

 

1) Are all ASC's located in the USA? I live in the Los Angeles, California area. Ideally, we hope there is an ASC in Thailand for him to provide the needed "fingerprints, photograph and/or signature." In my searches, it does not appear to be so, as there is now no official USCIS in Thailand.

 

2) Given that the USCIS as yet to schedule an appointment for us, we want to be proactive. a) So, does this mean that I have to fill out a DS-160 form for him to prepare for his visit to the USA to deal with this appt.? b) Or does the USCIS give him a visa to come here for the scheduled appointment? This is where we are lost...for whenever I call the 1-800-375-5283 number, they always tell me they will disconnect me when I ask to speak to a representative. Thus, I am disconnected each time I have called. Most lawyers have shut down operations in the US to prepare for thanksgiving holiday. I am more than happy, however to pay for legal counsel to get these questions asked.

 

Any tips and info would be greatly appreciated. Many thank yous from here in Los Angeles.

 

I am more than happy to answer questions for the community about the N-600K process for any of you.

Sincerely,

 

Jack

[arken 4,197]

You child needs to be in the US for any biometrics (at ASCs) and subsequent interview for N600K. Uscis will not help him in any way to come to the US for such appointment. It's up to you to bring him in the US for those appointments. 
 

N600K is an application for citizenship. If you are already declaring him as a us citizen and you have evidences, he can apply for a US passport through his mother at the Us embassy in thailand.

Edited November 19, 2021 by arken

[Mike E 11,742]

38 minutes ago, arken said:

N600K is an application for citizenship. If you are already declaring him as a us citizen and you have evidences, he can apply for a US passport through his mother at the Us embassy in thailand.

If he is already a U.S. citizen then I expect the N-600K to be denied.  
 

@Jack70 I would have him apply for a B1/B2 visa in May 2022.  

Edited November 19, 2021 by Mike E

[Jack70 0]

Thank you for your information Arken and Mike E. I am the one petitioning for my son, not his mom--but all the offical translated DNA tests, birth certificate that names me as his biological dad, well, all these have been submitted. This morning I received a letter denying him citizenship already; the email was posted on November 8 on my USCIS online page, but they never emailed me. So, I found out through snail mail today, meaning that I have about 20 days left to file an appeal. It is a sad day. At this time, am appealing via form I-290B. The response they gave was contradictory in language, and I wonder if my Chinese last name has something to do with hidden discrimination against my heritage. Since the pandemic, those with Chinese heritage in the US (or even if you look Asian) means that there is an exceptionally high probability that you are hated, and there is such a phenomenon as name discrimination, even if one has never traveled to China. As a professor her in the US, I have done nothing but good, but I am prettys sure that I am being discriminated, and this outcome would have been different were I to have an Anglo or non-Asian surname.

 

I had uploaded all my payment records to him/his mom since his birth, and carefully vetted my passport to demonstrate that every year I have been traveling back to Thailand to be with him.

 

Am gathering paperwork and photographs to prove that I have legal and physical custody, items that I already had uploaded to the USCIS website portal when I filled out the form N-600K in early October. So let's hope the additional 675$ that I will spend will not go down the drain. Thanks for your responses.

 

A quick note: halfway through the process, the USCIS noted that they tried to contact one of us. They addressed it to my son, but sent me the email as his petitioner. They never told me which number they tried to call. They did say they will call back, but never did. So if you're all reading this, ensure that you specify which number you want them to contact you at. I had to list the different numbers because in different areas they asked for those different numbers. 

 

Jack

[arken 4,197]

 

 

4 minutes ago, Jack70 said:

I wonder if my Chinese last name has something to do with hidden discrimination against my heritage.

 

4 minutes ago, Jack70 said:

As a professor her in the US, I have done nothing but good,

As a professor, i'd assume you know one has to go by the evidences not random assumptions. As said, if your son is already a US citizen by birth through your citizenship, N600k will be denied since a citizen can't apply for the same citizenship.

 

So try to figure out if he is already a citizen. 

[Jack70 0]

Evidence? Can you prove with evidence there is or there isn't a deity? Ghosts? Morality? Evidence that we can all agree on? Intuition is also as important. Yes, one can't prove anything with intuition, but that's why the world has such a thing as perfect crime, or cases that go cold--these never yield evidence. Assumptions are not random, but based on observing patterns--you live in California right? The FBI released reports that hate crimes against us are up 76% for 2020--is that evidence? You don't think some paper pushers can engage in sabotage?

 

He is only a citizen when the paperwork says so. But I can't get the paperwork approved with this N-600K flop. The point I am making is that I have all the evidence to prove it, but the USCIS will not accept it and have argued that "you have not established eligibility for approval of your Form N-600K."

Edited November 20, 2021 by Jack70

[arken 4,197]

7 minutes ago, Jack70 said:

Evidence? Can you prove with evidence there is or there isn't a deity? Ghosts? Morality? Evidence that we can all agree on? Intuition is also as important. Yes, one can't prove anything with intuition, but that's why the world has such a thing as perfect crime, or cases that go cold--these never yield evidence. Assumptions are not random, but based on observing patterns--you live in California right? The FBI released reports that hate crimes against us are up 76% for 2020--is that evidence? You don't think some paper pushers can engage in sabotage?

We are talking uscis not general people, I still don't see a single evidence of uscis discriminating by country's origin in your above statement. 

See even your assumption on where i live is incorrect.

 

7 minutes ago, Jack70 said:

I am making is that I have all the evidence to prove it, but the USCIS will not accept it

Well, if you list what evidences they are, you can get good guidance on what to do. What you think may not be enough otherwise why do we need uscis or visa processing. Everyone thinks their evidences are enough. This forum is exactly to figure out such issues. So i'd say list what evidences you included in your filing for any proper guidance.

Edited November 20, 2021 by arken

[jan22 3,056]

13 hours ago, Jack70 said:

. . .

He is only a citizen when the paperwork says so. But I can't get the paperwork approved with this N-600K flop. The point I am making is that I have all the evidence to prove it, but the USCIS will not accept it and have argued that "you have not established eligibility for approval of your Form N-600K."

The first sentence quoted here is incorrect.  If you meet the requirements to transmit your US citizenship to your son, then he was a citizen from birth, whether it has been documented on paper or not.  See https://fam.state.gov/fam/09FAM/09FAM030204.html#M302_4_3.

 

So, a couple of questions for you. Were you a US citizen at the time of your son's birth?  If so, at the the time of his birth had you been physically present in the United States for at least 5 years, two of which were after you reached the age of 14?  (NOTE:  The physical presence requirement is the same as required for the N-600k).  If the answer is yes to both of those questions, your son is a US citizen whether he has the documentation at this point to prove it or not.

 

As your son is under the age of 18, the proper procedure to document his citizenship is an application for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA) at the US Embassy in Bangkok.  You will need to fill in a DS-2029 and a DS-5507 and send it to his mother in Thailand (unless you plan to go there yourself for the application process), along with documentation of your physical presense in the US before his birth -- school records, employment records, leases, etc..-- and the other documentation you collected, such as the support paymments.  Where it says you need to sign in front of a consular officer on the forms, if you are not going to Thailand yourself you will need to sign them in front of a US notary.   Once his mother has all of this information from you, she will need to make an appointment at the US Embassy to submit a CRBA application.  Aa your son is 16, he no longer needs parental signatures on a US passport application, so he should also complete a DS-11 and apply for a US passport at the same time as the CRBA appointment.

 

I'm a bit confused by one of part of your information, but suspect it is the reason that your N-600k was denied.  You are, I am assuming, living in the United States. But, you also say that your son in Thailand is in your legal and physical custody. Those two statements are contradictory. If your son is living in Thailand and you are living in the United States, he cannot be in your physical custody.  The N-600k is for US citizen parents who "regularly reside outside the US" (USCIS language) to document their child(ren) who reside with them to apply for naturalization of the child(ren) when the intent is for child and parent to continue to reside outside the US.

 

If you do not meet the physical presence requirement to transmit your citizenship to your son, but want him to be able to live and study in the United States in a couple of years, you should file an I-130 petition, the first step for an IR-2 immigrant visa for your son.  That process can take a year or two.  But, once he gets the immigrant visa, if he uses it to enter the US into your legal and physical custody before he turns 18, he will become a US citizen automatically under the Child Citizenship Act.

Edited November 20, 2021 by jan22

[SteveInBostonI130 3,482]

16 hours ago, Jack70 said:

Thank you for your information Arken and Mike E. I am the one petitioning for my son, not his mom--but all the offical translated DNA tests, birth certificate that names me as his biological dad, well, all these have been submitted. This morning I received a letter denying him citizenship already; the email was posted on November 8 on my USCIS online page, but they never emailed me. So, I found out through snail mail today, meaning that I have about 20 days left to file an appeal. It is a sad day. At this time, am appealing via form I-290B. The response they gave was contradictory in language, and I wonder if my Chinese last name has something to do with hidden discrimination against my heritage. Since the pandemic, those with Chinese heritage in the US (or even if you look Asian) means that there is an exceptionally high probability that you are hated, and there is such a phenomenon as name discrimination, even if one has never traveled to China. As a professor her in the US, I have done nothing but good, but I am prettys sure that I am being discriminated, and this outcome would have been different were I to have an Anglo or non-Asian surname.

 

This entire section is, well, wrong.  

 

1.  USCIS is denying the N-600K.  Most probably because, by the evidence you submitted, he is a citizen already.   Or you do not meet the legal custody requirement.  The proper way is to go through the Consular Report of Birth Abroad, CRBA, if you were a citizen and you were in the US for 5 years prior to his birth.  Please note, the 5 years in the US does not mean you were a citizen for 5 years - just that you physically was residing in the US for 5 years.

 

2.  Many with Asian heritage and names are processed via USCIS.  They only care that you file properly.  Proper form, proper payment, proper evidence.  Any small discrepancy can lead to RFE or denial, because USCIS tend to follow the immigration laws and guidelines very strictly.  Please do not toss out the "discrimination" victim card casually.   I am not saying there is no discrimination out there, but I have not seen evidence of it at USCIS.  They deal mainly with immigration and are therefore exposed to a wide variety of foreign nationals.  They are one of the most diverse government agencies, in terms of public interaction.

 

3.  His mom would need to help apply for the CRBA, unless you will be there in Thailand to submit the documents to the US Embassy and attend the interview.

 

4.  An appeal will work if USCIS made an error.  If you are submitting the same information and it goes against the requirements of the N-600K, then the appeal will be denied.

 

 

[Jack70 0]

Hello Jan and Steve,

 

Thank you for your inputs. I am super grateful. There was a lot of good info from both of you and I will try to clarify, as you both clarified from me. I will try to hopscotch back and forth in a manner that ties both your points together into a response that is coherent. 

 

I was naturalized as 1977, so I was not born in the USA. Was born in 1970 in Laos, moved to Thailand after and grew up there. Came to the US and have remained here since, sans my annual return every year to Thailand for a period of 10 days to a month per year. This pattern continued after my son was born. I do not know if these 10 days to one month trips per year before and since his birth in Thailand disqualifies me from the claim that I have been in the US "5 years before his birth" (are they meaning I literally had to stay put in the US without any kind of international travel?). I have been living here, work here, have a spouse here, but take trips abroad back to Thailand every year given I have kin and his side of the family there.

 

Interestingly, I had the DS 2209 and DS 5507 completed thoroughly and had already uploaded to the 600K form that was submitted online (meaning that the forms still remain on the USCIS online application; the consular reps had access to these).

 

That said, the two forms were not signed, however, as it was my understanding that a USCIS rep from a local California branch would contact me, not my son or his mom (the latter two of which are in Thailand). I thus thought that after they contacted me, I would then go to a USCIS branch in the USA and only here would I be signing in front of the consular rep/s. I assummed (obviously erroneously) that I would be the one contacted because I thought the person petitioning must be a US citizen and thus must be the person submitting and signing the forms. On the forms, but especially DS 5507, I even used a thorough continuation sheet that listed all the times I was back in Thailand (I used the dates from the passports in my inventory, expired and current ones).

 

From what you've noted, let me try to summarize your points: a) he is already a citizen; b) I need to make an appt. with the US embassy in Thailand and hand the forms DS2209 and DS5507 to them while in Thailand (and not as supplementary documents via the online application of the 600K form which is what I did). c) Before going to Thailand, I should fill out the DS11 and have it ready to submit concomitantly with forms 2209 and 5507 when abroad (likely the summer of '22). d) I should probably avoid the 290B appeal at this time and just make an appointment with the US embassy this summer and throw my lot with the 2209 and 5507 paperwork.

 

Where I remain confused is this: are not my yearly payments (verified by paperwork that shows monthly payments being sent) and my actual visits listed on the continuation sheet of DS5507 enough for me to prove that I have legal and phyiscal custody, respectively? It was mentioned I contradicted myself, but I do not believe so because at the time my understanding was that by sending monies monthly, and by going back annually and being with him would qualify me as one who "regularly reside outside the US"--and that this would be enough for me to establish physical custody. I believe this is where I got confused with the legal language.

 

The wording on the denial letter said, as one of you alluded: "However, your child is currently residing outside the United States, and is not in the legal and physical custody of the US citizen parent, as you currently reside in the United States." Where I am confused is how else could I prove physical custody, for I have a job here and can't reside with him more than what summer or winter trips offer, yet these trips I made and continue to make regularly.

 

His mom and I were not married, but have an amicable relationship that didn't require us to ever go to courts in a contentious manner to establish on paper who gets legal and physical custody of our boy. It was a smooth arrangment, for lack of a better word, between both of us. That said, I did explicitly identify in both the DS 2209 and 5507 forms that my son was born out of wedlock. 

 

I know this might be Thanksgiving break for some of you. Thank you for taking time out to read this. It's wordy, I know, but am trying to be clear on what happened, what I should do, and the steps I believe I need to take next. Sending you all good vibes and a nice break.

[jan22 3,056]

Ah!  Thanks for the clarification.  Believe it or not, this makes your situation completely clear and you have an easy pathway to documenting your son's US citizenship.  I will try to address your concerns and confusion to sort things out for you.  If I am not successful, and you still have questions, let me know!   While both processes ultimately achieve the same result, your biggest issue is that you have mixed the forms, processes, and requirements of two different agencies, only one of which applies to your situation. I'll hit the important points first and then answer your concerns and explain why this is what you need to do.  This will be rather long, but I encourage you to read it thoroughly, as the details really matter!

 

First -- do NOT file an appeal of the N-600k denial.  It was correctly denied for a couple of reasons; therefore you will waste time and money, as you will lose the appeal.  The correct process for you lies with the US Embassy in Thailand and  has nothing to do with USCIS or any office in the US.  The DS-2029 is never submitted to or adjudicated by USCIS, as the CRBA process occurs completely outside the US and is adjudicated by the Department of State.  The fact that you are in the US does not matter; the important thing is where you son lives and was born.

 

Second -- yes, your son is already a US citizen.  You just need to properly document it.  You have a great start, having completed the two required forms to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA), the DS-2029 and DS-5507.  (I assume the "DS-2209" you referred to is a typo and you meant DS-2029).  And, it sounds like you have a complete listing of your times in and out of the US, which is usually one of the harder things to put together.  Sounds like you have copies of the passport stamps to document your US presence; other documentation to support it would also be useful (lease, employment records, school transcripts, etc.).

 

Third -- You need to follow the procedures outlined on the US Embassy Bangkok website for applying for a CRBA.  (The requirements and forms are the same worldwide, but the process to submit them for adjudication is dependent on the local Embassy.)  Check out U.S. Citizen Services - U.S. Embassy & Consulate in Thailand (usembassy.gov) for general information and Child and Family Matters - U.S. Embassy & Consulate in Thailand (usembassy.gov) "Report the Overseas Birth of a U.S. Citizen Child".  The Embassy has a really complete description of their process and requirements -- beginning with a mail-in application requirement to ensure you have all of the required documentation prior to being scheduled for an interview.   There are some requirements that seem to perhaps need documentation from the mother (I assume she is okay with your doing this, since you referenced your amicable relationship -- good for you guys!) and your son.  You can either send your portion to her and have her add her material and then send it to the Embassy or you can ask them to send their pieces to you and you send it.  NOTE:  You should only mail copies of your original documentation, not the originals.  You will take the originals to the interview with you (or send it to the mother to take with her if you are not going to be in Thailand at that time.]  I also recommend that you make a complete copy of what you send, just to be sure.

 

Now, on to some of your concerns/confusion:

• Uploading the DS-2029 and 5507 forms to the N-600K application served no purpose.  As I indicated earlier, USCIS has no authority to adjudicate those forms.  There are no "consular reps" at USCIS, as consular services is a Department of State function.  The majority of consular work is done overseas (the exception is the US Passport Agencies that are in the US).  No consular official has access to anything you uploaded to USCIS, so you will need to file them with the US Embassy in Bangkok, as directed by their processes.
• Physical Presence Requirement:  The requirement is a cumulative total of at least five years of physical presence prior to the birth of your son (not just residence -- it's all the time you body was in the US at any time, in any status).  It includes time you vacationed in the US, studied, or anything else, whether in legal status or undocumented.  Since you naturalized in 1977, you must have clearly been in the US since at least 1974, maybe sooner.  So, all of the days you have been in the US between 1974-ish and 2005-ish (when your son was born) count -- at least approximately 21 years by my calculation.  You most certainly have the five years total physical presence, with two of them after you were over 14 (appears most likely all were after you were 14, which is fine)
• Legal and Physical Custody:  I don't know if you have legal custody of your son, as I don't know the custody laws of Thailand and whether it would require a court document.  If you are on the birth certificate, you clearly have parental rights as establish by the country's laws; I just don't know what they are.  You do not, however, have physical custody -- that would require more than annual visits.  It would mean that your son lives with you, which he clearly does not.  The good news, however, is that is not a requirement for a CRBA.  (That's one of the instances where you mixed up the N-600K requirements with the CRBA requirements).  The CRBA process requires you to submit an acknowledgement of parentage and agreement for financial support until the child is 18 years old.  That requirement is met when you complete Section B, Page 3 on the DS-2029.
• Signing the two CRBA application forms:  IF you are going to attend the CRBA interview, you should not sign the forms before mailing them to the Embassy.  If you are not going to be in Thailand for the interview, you should sign both of the in front of a US notary before submitting them.  (I believe this is mentioned in the US Embassy Bangkok instructions).
• DS-11:  Just a picky point -- while you can fill in the passport application for, as your son is 16,  he will be the one signing it, not you and his mother.  His passport application does not require parental signatures, just his.  You will include it, unsigned, in the material you mail in as part of the CRBA application.  He will then sign it in front of the consular officer once his CRBA has been approved.  [NOTE:  When submitting the CRBA application materials to the Embassy, do not include the passport application fee.  The passport application will only be accepted (and the fee required) once the CRBA is approved -- that is, once it is officially determined that he is a US citizen.  He (or you and/or his mother) should be sure to have the required fee with them on the day of the interview.
• One final point:  The CRBA process needs to be done before your son is 18, which you should be able to accomplish (unless COVID messes things up even more!).  If it cannot be done in that time frame, however, it does not mean that your son has lost his US citizenship; rather, is just has not yet been documented, just like right now.  There is a process for "Adult Derivative Citizenship Claim" that can be done after he is 18.  I recommend however, if at all possible, that you do it before he turns 18.  You would need to basically submit all of the same information, along with a US passport application, but you would not end up with the CRBA, so the only permanent proof of US citizenship your son would ever have is a US passport. 

If you've made it this far into my response and haven't gotten completely confused or fallen asleep -- congratulations!  I think I have covered everything that has caused you confusion.  If I have not, as I said before, feel free to ask for clarification.  Meanwhile -- Good luck!

[Jack70 0]

Thank you Jan,

I have sent you a PM with a more detailed expression of my gratitude for your help!

 

Sincerely,

 

Jack