And speaking of jealousy....

[Jenn! 918]

I'll be honest and say that I think people tend to see what they want to see. Some women really thrive off of considering themselves the object of envy.

Sorry if I am repeating anything here, but I haven't finished the thread.

If it isn't jealousy what is it then? Purhaps prejudice? The fact is that you can tell by the look in their faces if they are merely curious. But they don't try to hide a look of some sort of nastiness. Maybe it isn't jealousy, but sometimes thats all we can attribute it too in many cases when you have done nothing worse than exist.

If someone gives me a nasty look, no, I do not assume that they are jealous of me. It could be any number of things, yes, prejudice among them. I just don't see attributing it to jealousy. It reminds me of what my mother used to tell me if I happened to get made fun of in elementary school for x,y, or z thing. "They're just jealous of you." I think it's an easy answer that is more oft than not untrue, IMO.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Um, ok I did not want to reply to this thread, since it seems like it just getting out of hand. Buuuut since my name has been tossed around...i feel I should.

1, My OP was directed to the general population in MENA. Not exculsive to Algeria.

2, I agreed with Wahrania's post since it is true (for me) that many women in Algeria that *I* have met are jealous of foreigners...not only Americans... esp the attractives one with education, skills and/or money. As unforunately the man you marry is and for your whole life is your statue symbol and bread/butter. Unlike for us *foreign* gals who make it on our own. And again I stress for many not all women in MENA.

3, IN my experience, after Algerian women get to know me... they shed their pre-convinced notions that range anywhere from curiousity to jealousy...after seeing who I am. And may I add in Algeria (and many other countries) the whole process is soooo long, and tiresome...and very hard on most men. 3yr long engagements, mahr, the many wedding dresses, the walima (arosa), gold and more gold, the bedroom and home furinture, etc etc. I know in my husband's family ALL the men were engaged for years until they could everything the women wanted to be married. So yes, in a way for these men marrying a foreign women is the only way they can *AFFORD* to marry. And I find this very unfortunate...but it is tradition. And these traditions are not easily broken.

4, As Wahrania stated my marriage is real. Not fake. And everyone knows it. We have been together far too long and been throu far too many things for it to be fake. LOL No man would put up with me this long unless he really loved me. LOL

5, Many women did actually in the beginning do this and that to ruin our happiness. But elhamdullah after a time, and the blessing of Ramadan they began to know me ... and see I am not some evil foreign woman taking their man.

6, I do not consider myself a person to want to be center of attention. In US I kept few friends (very very good friend) and kept to myself. Here in Algeria, I have my friends (mostly Germans and a few Brits and the women of my husband's family) who are just lovely women... I am not a social butterfly nor do I care to be. I much prefer to spent my time with my family or doing things for my family. After years and years, finally with my husband...so why the H*e*LL would I waste any time on stupidness? My husband is much more entertaining then any forum, tea party or arosa soireé.

7, I am indeed a divorced Muslime women with a child from a previous marriage. For the most part my husband's family did not mind... but for some it seemed my husband could done much better. It hurt at the time, but now the shock of the bluntness of the words worn off... I (and my husband) could care less. WE ARE A FAMILY. Other are just extended family. He comes rushing home to me. And elhamdullah only me. We complete each other. And I thank my God daily for that, esp since I know even in my own family (and my husband's family) I see women married, who are not truly happy or in love with their spouses. Soooo I feel so very blessed and lucky for this mercy. To have walked to the right of this wonderful man. SubhanAllah I am blessed! And I pray for every other women in this world to know this feeling.

Not only can it be women, it can be male friends as well. I wish you so much luck and love Henia and I am not sure what I will do exactly in Algeria in December but I have my letter of invitation so it looks like I will at least be making my trip and as the months progress I can figure out whats up. I maybe can bring you some American stuff cause I might stop through Algiers.. just depending on what happens. Anyway... I am off to TUNIS in 4 days. Every MENA experience is going to be different based on the man. Yours sounds like a keeper and I am really happy for you. Keep your chin up and yes THE STUFF YOU WENT THROUGH WAS NOT IN YOUR IMAGINATION LIKE SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE BOARDS ARE LEADING YOU TO BELIEVE. You are just perceptive enough to pick things up because you just have that ability. I always pick up things much too late. From all the things I have seen, I would love to warn this person and that but its better to be quiet because they resent you ( kill the messenger) and they will find out soon enough. This is not marrying your neighbor or high school sweetheart. This is a whole new set of rules and culture and everything depends on you and your husband to survive external pressure. Its a hard field to plow. If the support is there for your marriage and its genuine, then you have a fighting chance. I again want to emphasise NOT MORPHING INTO THE OTHER CULTURE. I really think an American needs to keep her American ness because if things go wrong and they sometimes do, you have the support net work of people to talk to. I have seen women really just throw away all their friends for some jerk guy only using her and then she is devastated. I honestly think that women marrying mena men should try extra hard to make sure they cultivate girlfriends to help them through hard times

[morocco4ever 63]

"Greatly" reduces their chances? I kind of doubt it. There aren't that many visas per year, and if what peezey's saying is correct, these guys weren't in the most-eligible-bachelor category anyway. The nasty looks could be for any number of reasons, probably just because the guy broke a cultural norm.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I saw a link of the number of visa applications along with approval and denials per country per year. It is increasing dramatically year by year. And as I stated, if the man is a stranger then how would they know if he is "unmarriable"? So unless you have the ability to read their minds then you don't know for sure. We are all just speculating here anyway.

Also, if the nasty looks were because the guy was breaking a cultural norm then why wouldn't the nasty look be directed at the guy?

[morocco4ever 63]

I'll be honest and say that I think people tend to see what they want to see. Some women really thrive off of considering themselves the object of envy.

Sorry if I am repeating anything here, but I haven't finished the thread.

If it isn't jealousy what is it then? Purhaps prejudice? The fact is that you can tell by the look in their faces if they are merely curious. But they don't try to hide a look of some sort of nastiness. Maybe it isn't jealousy, but sometimes thats all we can attribute it too in many cases when you have done nothing worse than exist.

If someone gives me a nasty look, no, I do not assume that they are jealous of me. It could be any number of things, yes, prejudice among them. I just don't see attributing it to jealousy. It reminds me of what my mother used to tell me if I happened to get made fun of in elementary school for x,y, or z thing. "They're just jealous of you." I think it's an easy answer that is more oft than not untrue, IMO.

This reminds me of when I was fresh out of high school. I have always been raised to be kind to everyone, and I have to admit I was a bit naive. I was at the grocery store and was minding my own business when I looked up and saw 2 girls somewhere around my age. The give me a nasty scowl and looked at each other and said "what a ######". I was devistated since I had no idea why someone would say that about someone they don't even know. I have since learned that people can be cruel and unkind. No longer do I get offended, but rather amused at what would make them say something so negative about someone they don't even know. This attitude can be in any and all cultures. Some of it is jealousy, some of it is prejudice, some of it is just for show. What really makes it hard is when it is from someone in your husbands family, and you both have to deal with it. I have been blessed with some great in-laws. I have met them all with the exception of the one living in the USA (go figure). I am excited that she will be coming in less than 2 weeks, and staying with us for a week.

I feel so bad for all of you out there that don't have this kind of support from your husbands family, I think it is crucial in making the marriage work.

[Caladan 19]

I'll be honest and say that I think people tend to see what they want to see. Some women really thrive off of considering themselves the object of envy.

Sorry if I am repeating anything here, but I haven't finished the thread.

If it isn't jealousy what is it then? Purhaps prejudice? The fact is that you can tell by the look in their faces if they are merely curious. But they don't try to hide a look of some sort of nastiness. Maybe it isn't jealousy, but sometimes thats all we can attribute it too in many cases when you have done nothing worse than exist.

If someone gives me a nasty look, no, I do not assume that they are jealous of me. It could be any number of things, yes, prejudice among them. I just don't see attributing it to jealousy. It reminds me of what my mother used to tell me if I happened to get made fun of in elementary school for x,y, or z thing. "They're just jealous of you." I think it's an easy answer that is more oft than not untrue, IMO.

I think this is right. It could be jealousy but prejudice seems to be far more likely. 'They're just jealous' is an easier explanation than 'Sometimes children pick on outsiders as part of a bonding ritual intended to solidify status.'

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I'll be honest and say that I think people tend to see what they want to see. Some women really thrive off of considering themselves the object of envy.

Sorry if I am repeating anything here, but I haven't finished the thread.

If it isn't jealousy what is it then? Purhaps prejudice? The fact is that you can tell by the look in their faces if they are merely curious. But they don't try to hide a look of some sort of nastiness. Maybe it isn't jealousy, but sometimes thats all we can attribute it too in many cases when you have done nothing worse than exist.

If someone gives me a nasty look, no, I do not assume that they are jealous of me. It could be any number of things, yes, prejudice among them. I just don't see attributing it to jealousy. It reminds me of what my mother used to tell me if I happened to get made fun of in elementary school for x,y, or z thing. "They're just jealous of you." I think it's an easy answer that is more oft than not untrue, IMO.

This reminds me of when I was fresh out of high school. I have always been raised to be kind to everyone, and I have to admit I was a bit naive. I was at the grocery store and was minding my own business when I looked up and saw 2 girls somewhere around my age. The give me a nasty scowl and looked at each other and said "what a ######". I was devistated since I had no idea why someone would say that about someone they don't even know. I have since learned that people can be cruel and unkind. No longer do I get offended, but rather amused at what would make them say something so negative about someone they don't even know. This attitude can be in any and all cultures. Some of it is jealousy, some of it is prejudice, some of it is just for show. What really makes it hard is when it is from someone in your husbands family, and you both have to deal with it. I have been blessed with some great in-laws. I have met them all with the exception of the one living in the USA (go figure). I am excited that she will be coming in less than 2 weeks, and staying with us for a week.

I feel so bad for all of you out there that don't have this kind of support from your husbands family, I think it is crucial in making the marriage work.

ummm...sometimes it is just jealousy. Just jealousy because some people do not like to see other people happy.

[Ban Hammer 13,110]

ummm...sometimes it is just jealousy. Just jealousy because some people do not like to see other people happy.

hence the "misery loves company" saying

[peezey 0]

If it isn't jealousy what is it then? Purhaps prejudice? The fact is that you can tell by the look in their faces if they are merely curious. But they don't try to hide a look of some sort of nastiness. Maybe it isn't jealousy, but sometimes thats all we can attribute it too in many cases when you have done nothing worse than exist.

Maybe they are offended. Maybe the person getting the look did something distasteful, something you don't even realize is distasteful, but nonetheless was offensive or at the very least nasty-look-worthy.

We have given dozens of reasons but people continue to insist on this jealousy idea. It's really shallow and self-serving to continue this line of thinking.

[peezey 0]

ummm...sometimes it is just jealousy. Just jealousy because some people do not like to see other people happy.

ummmm....You have yet to give a single example of why someone would be jealous of you, or of any of these women. All the examples you have posted are ridiculous hyperbolic women-hating stories that could have any number of meanings, jealousy being the least reasonable one.

[doodlebug 3]

I'm still sticking with the evil eye theory. One woman in particular gave me such a dirty look I almost "felt it" if that makes sense. That's one that my husband even commented on.

Anyways I am really starting to believe in the whole evil eye dark force thing. Ever since I have been sick, ever since my husband's flat has been "possessed", etc.

Why people do this I don't know. I have to say there were just as many if not more women who did indeed smile back at me, though they tended to be the younger ones (under 50 or so).

I just downloaded a bunch of dua's to protect against evil and just saying a few of them has already put me at ease. It's really spooky when you think about all that evil stuff. His family totally believes in it and wouldn't stop talking about it just before I left for my flight. (the one I caught pneumonia on.... ).

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I believe people in the US are just as capable of giving this evil eye. It's NOT a MENA thing for sure. Maybe I was just more aware of it over there but I'm going to make a point to smile to people tomorrow in the city and see what happens just to compare.

[Jenn! 918]

I'm still sticking with the evil eye theory. One woman in particular gave me such a dirty look I almost "felt it" if that makes sense. That's one that my husband even commented on.

Anyways I am really starting to believe in the whole evil eye dark force thing. Ever since I have been sick, ever since my husband's flat has been "possessed", etc.

Why people do this I don't know. I have to say there were just as many if not more women who did indeed smile back at me, though they tended to be the younger ones (under 50 or so).

I just downloaded a bunch of dua's to protect against evil and just saying a few of them has already put me at ease. It's really spooky when you think about all that evil stuff. His family totally believes in it and wouldn't stop talking about it just before I left for my flight. (the one I caught pneumonia on.... ).

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I believe people in the US are just as capable of giving this evil eye. It's NOT a MENA thing for sure. Maybe I was just more aware of it over there but I'm going to make a point to smile to people tomorrow in the city and see what happens just to compare.

I have this really fuzzy childhood memory of my great-grandmother doing something with olive oil and water in a dish (or was it the bathtub?) to ward off the evil eye.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

ummm...sometimes it is just jealousy. Just jealousy because some people do not like to see other people happy.

ummmm....You have yet to give a single example of why someone would be jealous of you, or of any of these women. All the examples you have posted are ridiculous hyperbolic women-hating stories that could have any number of meanings, jealousy being the least reasonable one.

First

I am not the one who started the thread. And you have read example after example from other people. Any stories that I have ever posted are true ones. And Henia s experiences have been real ones. Some people men or women, do not like to see other people happy. Some women in the countries when they see an american or westerner marry one of their own feel not only jealousy but total animosity. Its just the reality.

I have one american friend whos sisters in law waged outright war against her and her children. She is married to a moroccan here in the US and has children by him. They have excluded her children from all family events and harp on him about her. They have been married 7 years and have 2 kids. What they are feeling I would sumise is JEALOUSY. This girl is as gentle as a mouse.

Henia for example ,after moving to Algeria will tell you that women would say the most incredibly hateful things to her making her feel incredibly small. She is the one that started this thread not me. Tell her that she does not know what she is talking about. You dont even live over there. How can you tell her this did not happen?

I have only had one run in and this particular person has made trouble for every single outsider that has married into my husband' family to include terrorising the wife of his uncle and telling the family she hates her children ( the aunts) and has spread rumors and lies. She actually gets along with me now but not without making my life a living hell previously.

Peezy, as much as you deem yourself to be, you are not the expert on everyone and everything and you certainly have no business jacking me. I am not woman hating or anyone hating for that manner. You just like to breeze into posts and drop intellectual mumbo jumbo into the middle of a completely different discussion and you are very condescending. You sound like a harpy. You have no idea what you are talking about and telling people that things are not happening because you say they are not doesnt cut it. Henia started this thread and substantiated what she said as well as several others.

You are not even going through the immigration process so why you lurk around on here dumping on people who are is beyond me. Henia is doing immigration papers and so am I and so are many of the others in this discussion thread. You just want to feel important , patronize and belittle. I see right through you "hyperbolic woman hating etc" and I think you just like to feel important. Why don't you find somewhere else to lurk because you certainly do not do anyone around here a bit of good. I have yet to read one single positive post. You just lurk and lurk and drop into the middle of things when you really have no life experience to back anything that you say up. Tell Henia she did not go through this stuff not me. I did not start the thread. I merely commented on it

[Henia 11]

I'm still sticking with the evil eye theory. One woman in particular gave me such a dirty look I almost "felt it" if that makes sense. That's one that my husband even commented on.

Anyways I am really starting to believe in the whole evil eye dark force thing. Ever since I have been sick, ever since my husband's flat has been "possessed", etc.

Why people do this I don't know. I have to say there were just as many if not more women who did indeed smile back at me, though they tended to be the younger ones (under 50 or so).

I just downloaded a bunch of dua's to protect against evil and just saying a few of them has already put me at ease. It's really spooky when you think about all that evil stuff. His family totally believes in it and wouldn't stop talking about it just before I left for my flight. (the one I caught pneumonia on.... ).

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I believe people in the US are just as capable of giving this evil eye. It's NOT a MENA thing for sure. Maybe I was just more aware of it over there but I'm going to make a point to smile to people tomorrow in the city and see what happens just to compare.

1: Peezy: the main reason for any person to be jealous, that you are happy. And they are not. Second, many times is the false sense that you have more then them (ei: being a American in some people's mind equals you are rich, you have cars, houses, etc) something many MENA people do not.

2: The OP was referring to the jealousy of SO's family and fellow country cos they will be leaving MENA. Not jealousy about us, as the petitioners.

3: As Doodble stated, the evil eye, black magic, curses and satan possession are real. If you want to believe it or not. And many many women practise it.

4: There is in every basket good and bad apples. I know I am NOT generalizing anyone. Merely stating *MY* first experience with my husband's family. And many here that I have spoken agree with the story I told about the makeup before the wedding. Not my imgination.

5: It is funny how a thread posted several weeks, dead and buried has been brought back to life ... just to have yet another fight. I thought the whole point of us going through immigration is to be with our SOs. ?!?!?! Every time I get on VJ, my blood pressure seems to rise for no good reason. Thank ya'll!

[jpaula 20]

ummm...sometimes it is just jealousy. Just jealousy because some people do not like to see other people happy.

ummmm....You have yet to give a single example of why someone would be jealous of you, or of any of these women. All the examples you have posted are ridiculous hyperbolic women-hating stories that could have any number of meanings, jealousy being the least reasonable one.

First

I am not the one who started the thread. And you have read example after example from other people. Any stories that I have ever posted are true ones. And Henia s experiences have been real ones. Some people men or women, do not like to see other people happy. Some women in the countries when they see an american or westerner marry one of their own feel not only jealousy but total animosity. Its just the reality.

I have one american friend whos sisters in law waged outright war against her and her children. She is married to a moroccan here in the US and has children by him. They have excluded her children from all family events and harp on him about her. They have been married 7 years and have 2 kids. What they are feeling I would sumise is JEALOUSY. This girl is as gentle as a mouse.

Henia for example ,after moving to Algeria will tell you that women would say the most incredibly hateful things to her making her feel incredibly small. She is the one that started this thread not me. Tell her that she does not know what she is talking about. You dont even live over there. How can you tell her this did not happen?

I have only had one run in and this particular person has made trouble for every single outsider that has married into my husband' family to include terrorising the wife of his uncle and telling the family she hates her children ( the aunts) and has spread rumors and lies. She actually gets along with me now but not without making my life a living hell previously.

Peezy, as much as you deem yourself to be, you are not the expert on everyone and everything and you certainly have no business jacking me. I am not woman hating or anyone hating for that manner. You just like to breeze into posts and drop intellectual mumbo jumbo into the middle of a completely different discussion and you are very condescending. You sound like a harpy. You have no idea what you are talking about and telling people that things are not happening because you say they are not doesnt cut it. Henia started this thread and substantiated what she said as well as several others.

You are not even going through the immigration process so why you lurk around on here dumping on people who are is beyond me. Henia is doing immigration papers and so am I and so are many of the others in this discussion thread. You just want to feel important , patronize and belittle. I see right through you "hyperbolic woman hating etc" and I think you just like to feel important. Why don't you find somewhere else to lurk because you certainly do not do anyone around here a bit of good. I have yet to read one single positive post. You just lurk and lurk and drop into the middle of things when you really have no life experience to back anything that you say up. Tell Henia she did not go through this stuff not me. I did not start the thread. I merely commented on it

If we are going to talk about the difficulties of navigating a bi-cultural marriage it seems that some of the most neded voices are from those members who are through the immigration process and have been wading through these waters for years. This topic is not about immigration but about marriage and culture.

And, no one is trying to minimize the difficulties involved. Quite the opposite. I can tell you many a story of how hard it was for me to live in Algeria. I was stared at, sized up, gossiped about, yelled at in the streets, hit on perpetually, lonely, you name it. I often felt silenced and trapped. I spent many a night in my kitchen drinking pastis, chain smoking and crying (not pretty). And, I would speak very frankly about this to any American woman considering living there. But, I do really take issue with the generalizations drawn about Algerian women from these experiences. We all run into mean people. I can only imagine that many women here have had some pretty bad run ins with their own family members over their choice of husband. But, if you marry into a communal culture, you are going to have to work hard to understand where this unease comes from and to have real patience. And, you have to respect the cultural context. They might just flat out not like you (I speak of the general "you" here). But, if they do not like you because you are divorced, or overwieght or, even, American, time can wear those stereotypes down. Families, included extended families, are vitally important there. Ignoring people, insisting on your "American-ness" at the expense of understanding just is not good advise to give. Anyone who lives there for a long enough period of time will have to find that balance, but I suggest that a good chunk of it go toward having some compassion and understanding for people living a very different reality than our own, particularily when those people are our husbands' families. And, I do think it can happen. It just takes time (and a good supply of pastis and cigs, or whatever gets you through the night).

But, please, please, please, can we stop perpetuating the image that crops up on this board every six months or so of Arab women as jealous, bitter and greedy? And even better, can we try to direct it to the very needed discussion of the comlexities of bi-cultural experience?

[Henia 11]

Wahrania: It is completely pointless to waste the time typing. Time and time again ... here on MENA VJ people pick and choose what they comment on; bring back age old posts; twist words and manipulate to make their point. Personally, I made a vow to read only the immigration related topics. Unforunately I did not stick to it. I guess I have to. It is not good for my imen or my morale. Thanks ya'll!