And speaking of jealousy....

[♥JP♥ 5]

There is no reason for anyone to turn this thread into drama so before anyone else posts the pre-drama smiley let me just clarify again. The culture in MENA is different than here and the man is expected to provide for his wife and family from day one. Because so many men are either unemployed or hardly make enough to support themselves that makes them unmarriable in the respect that they can't support a wife or family. Some men are also obligated to support their own families which leaves them little money to support a wife or family of their own.

A man will not approach a girls family to ask for her hand if he is broke or unable to meet the standards that society has set for him. Also its not just that the man will approach a girls family alone, he will need support. In Jordan this is called Jaha and its a group of the older wiser men in the family that will approach the girls family to ask for her hand. A man that is not working or has little money will not be able to get the support of his elders to ask for a girls hand in marriage.

[Ban Hammer 13,276]

unmarriable --puts a different perspective on things, doesn't it ?

Jackie

yes it does. pass the please

[JelloShotGirl 0]

I get a lot of attention from everyone cuz I have white skin, i guess cuz i look different, and ususally in Philippines u see white guy with filipina , not the other way around. I only see i white woman there and I have been there 2 times. when I went up north i get some attitude problems with some girls in the market, my husb said because they are ignorant.maybe cuz my hubby is good looking. I got a lot of special treatment cause of my color,i think that is weird.... now my husband realizes now we are in the US we are just white trash ! LOL! so our butts dont get kissed here anymore!

[hollyw 0]

I, too, lived in Algeria for a year and a half and am quite shocked at the way Algerian women are being portrayed here.

There are many parts of the culture with which I was uncomfortable. It was hard for me as an American, Jewish woman to live in Algeria. I won't minimize that. But, the women I met there, be it through family or work, were nothing but kind and supportive, if a little baffled by my life (the feeling is mutual). The gossip and staring by strangers are a bit much and we are easy targets because we are different in a country that sees very few, if any, foreigners. I am sure tongues wagged after I left family affairs sometimes. But, this is not malicious, only hard to take for someone who is very private by nature. We come from an individualist culture and enter a communal one where what you do and how you behave is important beyond just yourself. I agree that to live there, to remain sane, sometimes you just have to ignore it, but I also understand why ignoring what Algerian women think of me can be seen as hostile and can provoke an equally disrespectful reaction. It took time, but the women in my husband's family and the ones who became my friends did eventually accept my differences, learn that I did not like weddings, know that I needed to go read a book by myself, stop trying to take me to the hairdresser, etc. I know they thought it all strange, but we found a balance with some time. I also met some women like me in this regard and they were as frutsrated as me by how strange this was to others. I am very grateful to the women I met. Now, the men, that is another story...(joking there).

As an afterthought, of the discomfort I did feel, I would attribute none of it to jealousy of me regarding my husband. Time and again, women seemed proud that an American woman would marry an Algerian man when she could marry an American instead. "Then you like Algerian men!" My reply was always,"well, I like ONE Algerian man."

I agree, I never experienced any kind of jealousy in Algeria. A lot of curiousity, but not jealousy.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I think it has alot to do with the class of people you are dealing with. It also has to do with who you hang around. I found that people very familiar with westerners seem to like them a great deal and just dont give them a hard time. It depends on who you are around. And it also depends on why the person married you and what they are telling people. You are not going to see a whole lot of animosity if the husband is telling everyone you are a 5 year gig. And there are just not alot of Algerians marrying Americans. You see this much more with France And UK. ITs so prevalant there is a name for it, its called marriage blanche or white marriage. If you are close in age and especially if you have reverted to islam, they are very proud of you. If you are far apart in age and maybe fat or have other issues, things become honor driven as people perhaps make fun of the guy for marrying you. You see case after case of UK women doing the 5 year gig. Henia actually living there you are going to see a completely different side than some of these women who have just gone there had fun and left. I have been involved with Algerians for 6 years intensively and Moroccans for 5 and I think the marriage blanche is something that is just tolerated but if there is a real threat that it becomes a permanent gig and you are not what they want in their family or are somehow unfit ( divorced ,kids, unattractive) some of the women in the family will wage an outright war against you.How other neighbors and people perceive the marriage is incredibly important. This becomes much less important as the person immigrates but during the waiting period if you are not with your spouse, it can become over whelming to the man to have to constantly hear women in his family drone on and on.

Listen its common knowledge that FRENCH MOROCCANS AND ALGERIANS are used as stepping stones to get out. These women are not acceptable to some backwards people. Who s to say that hairsprayed loud mouth Americans are much more acceptable? Thats why I say keep your friends and your identity because if you try to morph into one of them not only will you fail, if you do end up dumped after he gets his papers or other issues arrive, you have nothing to fall back on. Henia, you got to have seen this with the Algerians marrying brits. Its common knowledge that the guys go home in the last part of the marriage before they get their papers and start getting engaged to a "good Algerian girl" It takes a really strong and confidant man to deal with our American culture and the ####### they get from certain people engrained in the culture for marrying us. Do not think that passport in some cases is not a deciding factor. Henia any comments or opinions? I will be flying to TUNIS and be in TUNIS this time next week being the American capitalist pig that I am...I am flying air france hahahha... I hope I get to meet you Henia in December when I am in Algeria... It would be really fun. Maybe we can plan it

[jpaula 20]

I think it has alot to do with the class of people you are dealing with. It also has to do with who you hang around. I found that people very familiar with westerners seem to like them a great deal and just dont give them a hard time. It depends on who you are around. And it also depends on why the person married you and what they are telling people. You are not going to see a whole lot of animosity if the husband is telling everyone you are a 5 year gig. And there are just not alot of Algerians marrying Americans. You see this much more with France And UK. ITs so prevalant there is a name for it, its called marriage blanche or white marriage. If you are close in age and especially if you have reverted to islam, they are very proud of you. If you are far apart in age and maybe fat or have other issues, things become honor driven as people perhaps make fun of the guy for marrying you. You see case after case of UK women doing the 5 year gig. Henia actually living there you are going to see a completely different side than some of these women who have just gone there had fun and left. I have been involved with Algerians for 6 years intensively and Moroccans for 5 and I think the marriage blanche is something that is just tolerated but if there is a real threat that it becomes a permanent gig and you are not what they want in their family or are somehow unfit ( divorced ,kids, unattractive) some of the women in the family will wage an outright war against you.How other neighbors and people perceive the marriage is incredibly important. This becomes much less important as the person immigrates but during the waiting period if you are not with your spouse, it can become over whelming to the man to have to constantly hear women in his family drone on and on.

Listen its common knowledge that FRENCH MOROCCANS AND ALGERIANS are used as stepping stones to get out. These women are not acceptable to some backwards people. Who s to say that hairsprayed loud mouth Americans are much more acceptable? Thats why I say keep your friends and your identity because if you try to morph into one of them not only will you fail, if you do end up dumped after he gets his papers or other issues arrive, you have nothing to fall back on. Henia, you got to have seen this with the Algerians marrying brits. Its common knowledge that the guys go home in the last part of the marriage before they get their papers and start getting engaged to a "good Algerian girl" It takes a really strong and confidant man to deal with our American culture and the ####### they get from certain people engrained in the culture for marrying us. Do not think that passport in some cases is not a deciding factor. Henia any comments or opinions? I will be flying to TUNIS and be in TUNIS this time next week being the American capitalist pig that I am...I am flying air france hahahha... I hope I get to meet you Henia in December when I am in Algeria... It would be really fun. Maybe we can plan it

You are confusing two issues: 1) marrying an American and 2) marrying someone seen as unacceptable.

For "hairsprayed loud mouth Americans" I would guess that American is not the unacceptable factor. Loud mouth in someone else's culture is not going to go over well. Period. In Algerian culture families have alot of say in who adult children marry. Divorced women, in general, American or no, are going to be less acceptable. Same goes for overweight or age differences. Someone who they do not think is going to raise children in their culture is going to be hard to accept. The fact that I am not Muslim was certainly an issue for me. This is not jealousy, it is the baggage that comes with choosing to marry into a different culture. And, a pretty homogeneous culture at that. I am going to guess that we are more of a curiosity in Algeria than in most MENA countries simply because there are so few foreigners there, no tourist industry, civil war and all. If anything, I think you get away with more as an American than you can as an Algerian woman as they often just shrug it off as you not knowing. People can be mean, but to use this as evidence of jealousy or to back large generalizations about the women of a country would be silly were it not so harmful.

I married the only son of a poor family who had no experience with Americans. I doubt I am what my MIL would have picked for her only son. But, I went into it trying to understand where she was coming from and I did my best to respect the culture they live in, even when I disagreed with it and could not fit into it. It drove me mad at times. But, if you accept that when marrying a MENA man the family is part of the deal, you work at it. This does not mean giving up your own identity, it means being culturally sensitive.

I think most people here are disagreeing with the use of the word jealousy. People may not approve of you and it can certainly be a critical, gossipy environment, but this is not jealousy and it is no less criticism than Algerian women have to put up with themselves.

I write this now when I usually keep my mouth shut on this board (and probably should have kept it that way) because I am often frustrated by the way culture is written off in these discussions. These generalizations are dangerous and looking at behavior without understanding the cultural context, evaluating it with American expectations, does nothing to help. It only fuels easy stereotypes on both sides.

[♥JP♥ 5]

I think it has alot to do with the class of people you are dealing with. It also has to do with who you hang around. I found that people very familiar with westerners seem to like them a great deal and just dont give them a hard time. It depends on who you are around. And it also depends on why the person married you and what they are telling people. You are not going to see a whole lot of animosity if the husband is telling everyone you are a 5 year gig. And there are just not alot of Algerians marrying Americans. You see this much more with France And UK. ITs so prevalant there is a name for it, its called marriage blanche or white marriage. If you are close in age and especially if you have reverted to islam, they are very proud of you. If you are far apart in age and maybe fat or have other issues, things become honor driven as people perhaps make fun of the guy for marrying you. You see case after case of UK women doing the 5 year gig. Henia actually living there you are going to see a completely different side than some of these women who have just gone there had fun and left. I have been involved with Algerians for 6 years intensively and Moroccans for 5 and I think the marriage blanche is something that is just tolerated but if there is a real threat that it becomes a permanent gig and you are not what they want in their family or are somehow unfit ( divorced ,kids, unattractive) some of the women in the family will wage an outright war against you.How other neighbors and people perceive the marriage is incredibly important. This becomes much less important as the person immigrates but during the waiting period if you are not with your spouse, it can become over whelming to the man to have to constantly hear women in his family drone on and on.

Listen its common knowledge that FRENCH MOROCCANS AND ALGERIANS are used as stepping stones to get out. These women are not acceptable to some backwards people. Who s to say that hairsprayed loud mouth Americans are much more acceptable? Thats why I say keep your friends and your identity because if you try to morph into one of them not only will you fail, if you do end up dumped after he gets his papers or other issues arrive, you have nothing to fall back on. Henia, you got to have seen this with the Algerians marrying brits. Its common knowledge that the guys go home in the last part of the marriage before they get their papers and start getting engaged to a "good Algerian girl" It takes a really strong and confidant man to deal with our American culture and the ####### they get from certain people engrained in the culture for marrying us. Do not think that passport in some cases is not a deciding factor. Henia any comments or opinions? I will be flying to TUNIS and be in TUNIS this time next week being the American capitalist pig that I am...I am flying air france hahahha... I hope I get to meet you Henia in December when I am in Algeria... It would be really fun. Maybe we can plan it

You are confusing two issues: 1) marrying an American and 2) marrying someone seen as unacceptable.

For "hairsprayed loud mouth Americans" I would guess that American is not the unacceptable factor. Loud mouth in someone else's culture is not going to go over well. Period. In Algerian culture families have alot of say in who adult children marry. Divorced women, in general, American or no, are going to be less acceptable. Same goes for overweight or age differences. Someone who they do not think is going to raise children in their culture is going to be hard to accept. The fact that I am not Muslim was certainly an issue for me. This is not jealousy, it is the baggage that comes with choosing to marry into a different culture. And, a pretty homogeneous culture at that. I am going to guess that we are more of a curiosity in Algeria than in most MENA countries simply because there are so few foreigners there, no tourist industry, civil war and all. If anything, I think you get away with more as an American than you can as an Algerian woman as they often just shrug it off as you not knowing. People can be mean, but to use this as evidence of jealousy or to back large generalizations about the women of a country would be silly were it not so harmful.

I married the only son of a poor family who had no experience with Americans. I doubt I am what my MIL would have picked for her only son. But, I went into it trying to understand where she was coming from and I did my best to respect the culture they live in, even when I disagreed with it and could not fit into it. It drove me mad at times. But, if you accept that when marrying a MENA man the family is part of the deal, you work at it. This does not mean giving up your own identity, it means being culturally sensitive.

I think most people here are disagreeing with the use of the word jealousy. People may not approve of you and it can certainly be a critical, gossipy environment, but this is not jealousy and it is no less criticism than Algerian women have to put up with themselves.

I write this now when I usually keep my mouth shut on this board (and probably should have kept it that way) because I am often frustrated by the way culture is written off in these discussions. These generalizations are dangerous and looking at behavior without understanding the cultural context, evaluating it with American expectations, does nothing to help. It only fuels easy stereotypes on both sides.

This is a very good post.

[peezey 0]

Henia goes back and forth to Algera. So what? Many of us have lived in our SO's countries for extended periods of time and are simply not agreeing with your assessment, because it's untrue and harmful (as jpaula said).

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I think it has EVERYTHING to do with the family, financial background and the general way people get married there. If you have a family where there has been alot of outside marriages or travel, the chances of things working out can be much higher. I disagree with Americans being an oddity. As the years progress, with the advent of the internet, fiancee visas are sky rocketing with people going to meet in Tunisia as there is no requirement for a visa. It also depends on the part of Algeria they are from. Algiers has one set of customs. Oran appears to be open minded but in many ways it is not. Then Kabiilya has a whole other set of rules due to tremendous intermixing in Europe as many Kabilyes are all over Europe. I will give you an example. In Oran, if you have slept with a man before marriage and you are Orani, you can pretty much hang up your chances of getting married. The cabarets and bars are populated with women plying their trades as prostitutes, albeit not willingly because they had sex and now are marked as " bad girls", girls you sleep with that you do not marry. For westerners to not completely grasp this culture issue is a disservice to a woman considering marriage because you not only marry the guy, how ever eager. You marry his culture. The fact your husband was an only child and also poor leads me to believe that there was not alot of family pressure not to marry you. You perhaps were the best thing that ever happened to him. This is not always the case. Often these guys can have alot of sisters and female relatives who are not real thrilled with the marriage. This again is sometimes eleviated with the belief that its not a real marriage anyway and some day the guy will return and get a real wife. This is no slap in the face of the western woman but you cannot just say that every western woman is NOT going to face very real threats to their relationships. That is just not realistic or fair. And as far as fitting in, if the American does not watch out, they lose touch with their own value systems trying very hard to accomodate other peoples value systems. There are true problems with intermarriages and In my opinion, they are lessened when you are far away from the family but familial pressure to marry the "right person" can be very huge. Keep in mind that I have experienced very little of this but I have seen time and time again and talked to very good friends of mine married to MENA men about some of the things they have been put through and its heartbreaking but very real and the best advice I could ever give someone marrying someone from a foreign country is to "be yourself" completely and do not lose touch with the fact you are American and have different values. Some things that are done over there to women are just not fair and an American woman can reinvent herself.. if she has problems she can move, she can start over. That culture does not allow it and the worst thing you can call a girl is a kahba.... there is no hope for her after this.

This perhaps would shed some light as to why perhaps things are not said or seen, you have to see the nuances to understand what is going on around you and a quick visit will not reveal it. You see this by looking at multiple situations and being realistic. Love is important but societal pressures and family can be the death of even really good relationships. Take care to protect your own self esteem and identity as well as appeasing the MENA people. Keep your friends, interests and hobbies

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

[♥JP♥ 5]

Wahrania - You keep talking about MENA but keep the focus on Algerians. Not all MENA cultures are the same and you POV is very narrow. You went off about several things in chat one day that were simply BS. You seem to think only in stereotypes and absolutes. Judging from your posts and your chats, you would be the LAST person I would take advice from. You are clearly still upset about your ex and filtering that anger towards arab culture.

[peezey 0]

And the LAST person to be lecturing on "nuance" and westerners learning "cultural sensitivity."

No MENA woman is supposed to have sex before she is married. What does this have to do with whether or not you believe women are jealous of you?

[♥JP♥ 5]

Sometimes I wonder how much of what is said here the woman's POV or what is fed to her by her S.O.? There is a huge difference in behavior in each area in MENA. Even within the same country you will find different standards among different areas.

I don't think MENA women are jealous of anyone on this forum, if you think so, then you need to stop being so vain about yourself. Jealous women exist in every coutnry but how can you just pin point one out by looking at her? What if she is just admiring your sense of style? Maybe she thinks you are pretty. Maybe she is looking at you the same way people look at a woman in Target when she is wearing full niqab?

[sara535 15]

and again, stereotypes are just that. There are plenty of stereotypes out there about american women and frankly I dont think I fit any of them. My husband is younger than me, I am divorced with a child, and not the thinnest gal around but I absolutely do NOT think my husbands family has ever said anything ugly or discouraging to him about me. They were all thrilled when I became pregnant (bringing 'permanence' to the relatonship)....

As for being stared at in Morocco, sure some people were checking me out, probably for a variety of reasons. Certainly in the smaller towns when we were with family at decidedly UNtouristy destinations I think most people were just surprised to see me there. I never felt it was jealousy or hostility, just curiousity.

[mybackpages 0]

I write this now when I usually keep my mouth shut on this board (and probably should have kept it that way) because I am often frustrated by the way culture is written off in these discussions. These generalizations are dangerous and looking at behavior without understanding the cultural context, evaluating it with American expectations, does nothing to help. It only fuels easy stereotypes on both sides.

Thank you