And speaking of jealousy....

[jpaula 20]

And speaking of jealousy....have you experienced any jealousy from your SO's fellow countrymen or women? LOL!

Yes I have.. a few times while in Jordan for 3 months..but nothing Ahmad and I couldn't handle..even if it pissed us off and at times blew our minds.

Here are 2 of a few experiences:

1- During a visit to my husbands friends family home.. one of the woman we both just met there kept talking across the room to my husband in arabic... then while we were watching a short video..she brought our her camera phone actiing like she was looking at..but then I hear the sound of it taking a picture..and guess who she was taking it of..yep from across the room..my husband.. My husband then looked over at her and spoke (in arabic)..If you want to take a picture you need to come here and take it of both of us. I however wanted to tell her "Eh B*tch, you wanna eat that camera phone???" ..As for what she was saying to him prior to this.. She kept asking him if he really loved me..and why does he want to go to America. Ahmad was quite irritated..referring to her an easy inheat girl dog.. and said he told her how much he loved me and would go anywhere .. even hell to be with me. I could understnd part of their talking..but he interpretted it more later. At this point my husband says that he felt that the invitation from this family was more than a hospitable one..but it had an underlying agenda. Therefore he has chosen to not accept anymore invites from this family.

2- Womens Celebration at home one week after we married.

Next door neighbor had 7 daughters.. in whom she was trying to marry them off to the last 2 available men in my husbands family (which were Ahmad and his brother).

During this festive nite of dancing and enjoying tea with family and neighboring women.. My husband Ahmad stayed with me the entire nite..but at one point the neighbor "mother of 7" took my husband on the side and told him.."If you marry one of my daughters, you will not have to do anything..I will pay for everything..you will not even have to work..(yeah right)..just marry one of them". My husband turned to her and said "Nothing you or anyone offers me would take me away from my wife..I love her more than anything.. Get away from me". I was wondering why at one point when I sat next to this family..He and his sister came to me and pulled me away from them to sit elsewhere. It was so obvious too. His mom also told this woman to not make trouble..or speak anymore..or she would have to leave. My family would have not been so cordial.. no way. This woman and her family would not be there..but in Jordan..its different.. Hospitality is prevalent and to be mostly admired.

Anyway.. I didnt enjoy this..but am thankful to see how my husband and his family handled this... As for jealousy.. Its equal for Ahmad and I..but not to the point of being rediculous... we feel pretty compliment by the other with the loving jealousy we display. Believe me i know the difference with a crazy/over protective jealousy and a loving/protective jealousy that is healthy.

thanks so much or posting. They have all been on me saying none of this stuff happens

AGAIN we never said it doesn't happen, we just dont' agree that all arab women are spiteful because it has happened to a select few. We don't agree that the only this happens in jealousy.

Or that it only happens in MENA. Or that it predominantly happens in MENA. Or that it happens in MENA predominantly to American/Western women, etc.

However difficult it may have been and loathe we are to admit it, it does seem we have reached agreement on this. Maybe we should ignore some of the earlier posts in the name of peace and agree that personal experiences are valid and even helpful but that generalizations drawn from them are unfair and to be avoided.

I do believe that part of understanding your (our) own experience is going to be understading what you can of another culture without vilifying or romanticizing it. And that the explanations for our experiences, the why of things, need not be the one most flattering to us.

[allousa 1]

My husband doesn't even fit into this "generalization". He made very good money here in the States (where we met) and his family owns a successful business and I'm sure all of the brothers have the means to provide for a wife. My husband's family have never put an emphasis on all that you have stated above. Do you know for a fact that all of the women on VJ fit into your mentioned generalization? Just say'in...if people are going to have drama over one person making a sweeping generalization, rather hypocritical to make one yourself.

I'm just sick and tired of all the freak'in drama on those posts.

You clearly don't get how MENA culture and traditions work.

Based on the fact that I don't agree with you on this particularly post, does not mean I have no concept of MENA culture. You do not know me, you do not know anything about how my family brings the MENA culture/traditions into our home...so back off. You CLEARLY don't have enough information to make that statement.

I'm trying to remain respectful to people on this board whether I agree with them or not. I have not been rude to you, I respectfully ask that you do the same.

The only statement I have made is regarding a cultural fact. If your husbands family doesn't follow traditional MENA culture then that might be the reason you feel the way you do. However most arabs DO follow traditional culture and this is cultural. The reason I said you don't get how it works is because you continue to insist I am making a generalization when infact I am not. And I am not a hypocrit as you also stated which in itself was a rude statement.

I admit I still have a lot to learn about MENA culture and I look forward to sharing that with my husband. Unfortunately, I won't be learning much of it here as you are setting a bad example. What's the point of discussing some of these questions if you're going to be insulted about it. There are a few things on this site that have been helpful, but the nastiness is beginning to outweigh the benefit.

[me_4_musa 1]

Just passing by to see whats going on.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

My husband doesn't even fit into this "generalization". He made very good money here in the States (where we met) and his family owns a successful business and I'm sure all of the brothers have the means to provide for a wife. My husband's family have never put an emphasis on all that you have stated above. Do you know for a fact that all of the women on VJ fit into your mentioned generalization? Just say'in...if people are going to have drama over one person making a sweeping generalization, rather hypocritical to make one yourself.

I'm just sick and tired of all the freak'in drama on those posts.

You clearly don't get how MENA culture and traditions work.

Based on the fact that I don't agree with you on this particularly post, does not mean I have no concept of MENA culture. You do not know me, you do not know anything about how my family brings the MENA culture/traditions into our home...so back off. You CLEARLY don't have enough information to make that statement.

I'm trying to remain respectful to people on this board whether I agree with them or not. I have not been rude to you, I respectfully ask that you do the same.

The only statement I have made is regarding a cultural fact. If your husbands family doesn't follow traditional MENA culture then that might be the reason you feel the way you do. However most arabs DO follow traditional culture and this is cultural. The reason I said you don't get how it works is because you continue to insist I am making a generalization when infact I am not. And I am not a hypocrit as you also stated which in itself was a rude statement.

I admit I still have a lot to learn about MENA culture and I look forward to sharing that with my husband. Unfortunately, I won't be learning much of it here as you are setting a bad example. What's the point of discussing some of these questions if you're going to be insulted about it. There are a few things on this site that have been helpful, but the nastiness is beginning to outweigh the benefit.

Allousa first let me help you with something so you have some perspective. First Jordanians and Palestinians are NOT experts on Moroccan culture and middle eastern arab culture is not the same as north african culture so arab or not, she cannot teach you about Morocco. Let me break it down.

The gulf has one set of culture

Palestine and Jordan have another ( with alot of palestinians living in Jordan and Lebanon......you see some of this also in the historical premis for civil war which has palgued lebanon)

Egypt has a completely OTHER set of rules and history beinng that they have had a different set of colonial influences,not being colonised per se but coptic and a whole other ancient history.

Then you have libyans who have an italian influence.

Tunisia which to this day has so many outside influences

Morocco has only been a protectorate and was bERBER not Arab to begin with. The arabic influence traveled to there

And then last of course is algeria.... a country actually that was roman,berber, celtic,phoenician,in the 6th century,large jewish population, and speaks arabic, tuareg,kabilye and chawwi,

The only thing the mid east did for algeria was after a 130 years of colonization by the French in 1962 Houari Boumedienne hired middle eastern and arabic people to come teach them arabic because NO ONE SPOKE ARAB FLUENTLY. They speak Darja ( now of course they all speak formal arabic) but in the early 60s even Ben Bella could not properly address the Egyptian congress. Several radical palestinian and egyptian teachers, some of them in exile from their own countries ( well we all know that palestine suffered immensely...other subject thank you) came i nto Algeria and imported some of their ideas and culture into algeria. Some very good. Some very very bad.. Between 1962 and the present there has been a conflict between the non arabic speaking kabilyes in the east and arabists that belittle and demean them and its only been recently that amazigh is being taught again ( other wise known as berber...do not call them arabs) They are not

Now for a jordanian to come onto your post and hold her self as an expernt on mena culture is absurd. Many people in Morocco and Algeria are NOT EVEN ARAB. Hence the amazigh culture and the berber culture. ( ask your husband to tell you the story of Kahina) I am just letting you know that being arab does not make one an expert on morocco because Morocco and algeria have a completely different story and ethnic background and frankly in 1917 to 1922 in the berber highlands of Morocco the moroccan berbers FOUGHT AGAINST ARABIZaTION. I think its presumtuous for someone to hold themseles up as arab and give you a lecture. Some people in Algeria are more closely related to the celts or basque than the arabs. And not all Algerians or Moroccans even speak arabic. So here we have some jordanian ( god bless jordan) telling you married to a Moroccan Allousa with a Moroccan daughter that you dont not MENA culture? Well you dont know JORDANIAN CULTURE ( neither o i) but there is a good chance that you are pretty familiar with Moroccan because you have a baby with one and are married to one. This is not to offend but to merely make a point...that being arab doesnt make you and expert on everyone who speaks arabic nor does being American make you and expert on the constitution. Some Americans are more knowledgable about foreign affairs and history as well as some arabs know tons about the history of the USA. Think for yourself and ignore harpies, especially ones who say they know everything. So Allousa, think for yourself girlfriend... You know tons and don't pay attention to know it alls. Your life experience is the best teacher

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

charles a little letter to allousa....

read

Allousa first let me help you with something so you have some perspective. First Jordanians and Palestinians are NOT experts on Moroccan culture and middle eastern arab culture is not the same as north african culture so arab or not, she cannot teach you about Morocco. Let me break it down.

The gulf has one set of culture

Palestine and Jordan have another ( with alot of palestinians living in Jordan and Lebanon......you see some of this also in the historical premis for civil war which has palgued lebanon)

Egypt has a completely OTHER set of rules and history beinng that they have had a different set of colonial influences,not being colonised per se but coptic and a whole other ancient history.

Then you have libyans who have an italian influence.

Tunisia which to this day has so many outside influences

Morocco has only been a protectorate and was bERBER not Arab to begin with. The arabic influence traveled to there

And then last of course is algeria.... a country actually that was roman,berber, celtic,phoenician,in the 6th century,large jewish population, and speaks arabic, tuareg,kabilye and chawwi,

The only thing the mid east did for algeria was after a 130 years of colonization by the French in 1962 Houari Boumedienne hired middle eastern and arabic people to come teach them arabic because NO ONE SPOKE ARAB FLUENTLY. They speak Darja ( now of course they all speak formal arabic) but in the early 60s even Ben Bella could not properly address the Egyptian congress. Several radical palestinian and egyptian teachers, some of them in exile from their own countries ( well we all know that palestine suffered immensely...other subject thank you) came i nto Algeria and imported some of their ideas and culture into algeria. Some very good. Some very very bad.. Between 1962 and the present there has been a conflict between the non arabic speaking kabilyes in the east and arabists that belittle and demean them and its only been recently that amazigh is being taught again ( other wise known as berber...do not call them arabs) They are not

Now for a jordanian to come onto your post and hold her self as an expernt on mena culture is absurd. Many people in Morocco and Algeria are NOT EVEN ARAB. Hence the amazigh culture and the berber culture. ( ask your husband to tell you the story of Kahina) I am just letting you know that being arab does not make one an expert on morocco because Morocco and algeria have a completely different story and ethnic background and frankly in 1917 to 1922 in the berber highlands of Morocco the moroccan berbers FOUGHT AGAINST ARABIZaTION. I think its presumtuous for someone to hold themseles up as arab and give you a lecture. Some people in Algeria are more closely related to the celts or basque than the arabs. And not all Algerians or Moroccans even speak arabic. So here we have some jordanian ( god bless jordan) telling you married to a Moroccan Allousa with a Moroccan daughter that you dont not MENA culture? Well you dont know JORDANIAN CULTURE ( neither o i) but there is a good chance that you are pretty familiar with Moroccan because you have a baby with one and are married to one. This is not to offend but to merely make a point...that being arab doesnt make you and expert on everyone who speaks arabic nor does being American make you and expert on the constitution. Some Americans are more knowledgable about foreign affairs and history as well as some arabs know tons about the history of the USA. Think for yourself and ignore harpies, especially ones who say they know everything. So Allousa, think for yourself girlfriend... You know tons and don't pay attention to know it alls. Your life experience is the best teacher

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Wahrania your arguments are going around in circles.

In your very first post in this thread (the one that set off the entire debate here) you clearly state that you're talking about "Arabs":

I have been to Algeria 3 times and been around them pretty much non stop since 2001 and from what i have seen, the best thing to do is keep your identity, do not try to pal up to them and let them learn to like you. Be a part of things with arabs but dont copy them. they are very spiteful and you just have to deal with that. You are taking their man ( even if he is just using you for papers its stilla 5 year loss) and they have issues with it. It aint really jealousy,its resentment and hate.

You go on and on with a bunch of negative stereotypes about these "Arabs," especially the women.

But now, in your latest barrage of half-baked BS, you say:

Many people in Morocco and Algeria are NOT EVEN ARAB.

So which is it ? You keep wandering all over the map with your "arguments."

Now if you can get a few members here to consider you some kind of credible "authority," well you've done far better than should be expected. But the vast majority of members here -- people with extensive experience in ME/NA, just as you claim to have -- are telling you that you simply don't know what you're talking about. You present what you have admitted to be a single isolated personal experience as representative of an entire people. And you have become enraged that everyone doesn't agree with your ridiculous stereotyping.

Of course a lot of people are knowledgeable about other places -- DUH. But *you* obviously know next to nothing about Palestinians or their culture. Don't you realize that Gaza was administered by Egypt for decades, and these two peoples have interacted for thousands of years ??? Palestinians are quite familiar with Egyptian culture. And millions of Palestinians work and live all over the Middle East and North Africa, as well as in Europe, the U.S., and more. They are a quite cosmopolitan people -- probably the most cosmopolitan of all ME/NA people (due to the conflict there, and the massive numbers driven out.) The great majority of Palestinians have far more understanding of and experience with "other places" than you want to admit.

Now for a jordanian to come onto your post and hold her self as an expernt on mena culture is absurd.

Teehee. And *you're* an American who by your own account has been to Algeria and Morocco "3 times," yet you are holding *yourself* up as an expert. Do tell.

So here we have some jordanian ( god bless jordan) telling you married to a Moroccan Allousa with a Moroccan daughter that you dont not MENA culture? Well you dont know JORDANIAN CULTURE ( neither o i) but there is a good chance that you are pretty familiar with Moroccan because you have a baby with one and are married to one.

Silly silly woman. Allousa's husband is not Moroccan, he is PALESTINIAN. Not an EXILE but a REFUGEE living in Morocco. Ask her -- she will tell you he is NOT Moroccan. Of course he is experienced in Moroccan culture, as well as that of his own homeland. And her knowledge has come through actual experience in Morocco, not through some "symbiosis" of being married.

"Culture" is not passed through marriage, nor through the father's seed or the mother's umbilical cord. Simply getting married to a foreigner or bearing his child does not impart any inherent cultural sense or understanding, neither to the spouse nor the parent nor the baby. Culture is learned, not inherited.

But please DO keep posting. We are enjoying the entertainment.

[mybackpages 0]

"Culture" is not passed through marriage, nor through the father's seed or the mother's umbilical cord. Simply getting married to a foreigner or bearing his child does not impart any inherent cultural sense or understanding, neither to the spouse nor the parent nor the baby. Culture is learned, not inherited.

But please DO keep posting. We are enjoying the entertainment.

I can;t help but be reminded of all the Italian Americans I have known. Thye definatelysee themselves as Italians linked to the mother country. Proud of their heritage, but they are simply not Italian, nor do they have any idea of what it means to be an Italian. My Italian friends are quite amused by Italian Americans claims to be Italian. The re two cultures- Italian and Italian American.

What amazes me is how so many people love to pontificate on their "expertise" and dismiss other experiences just to protect their own belief of what is right. Seems to me a little humility and openmindedness would make one a much better "expert" than spending all the engery in defending oneself.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! *runs through thread on caffeine high*

[~Jackie~ 30]

I'm so buzzed on caffiene, I am just looking at the pretty pictures.

Jackie

[ya falaha! 0]

I'm jealous of Rahma's caffeine high.

[AngelK96 0]

Wahrania your arguments are going around in circles.

In your very first post in this thread (the one that set off the entire debate here) you clearly state that you're talking about "Arabs":

I have been to Algeria 3 times and been around them pretty much non stop since 2001 and from what i have seen, the best thing to do is keep your identity, do not try to pal up to them and let them learn to like you. Be a part of things with arabs but dont copy them. they are very spiteful and you just have to deal with that. You are taking their man ( even if he is just using you for papers its stilla 5 year loss) and they have issues with it. It aint really jealousy,its resentment and hate.

You go on and on with a bunch of negative stereotypes about these "Arabs," especially the women.

But now, in your latest barrage of half-baked BS, you say:

Many people in Morocco and Algeria are NOT EVEN ARAB.

So which is it ? You keep wandering all over the map with your "arguments."

Now if you can get a few members here to consider you some kind of credible "authority," well you've done far better than should be expected. But the vast majority of members here -- people with extensive experience in ME/NA, just as you claim to have -- are telling you that you simply don't know what you're talking about. You present what you have admitted to be a single isolated personal experience as representative of an entire people. And you have become enraged that everyone doesn't agree with your ridiculous stereotyping.

Of course a lot of people are knowledgeable about other places -- DUH. But *you* obviously know next to nothing about Palestinians or their culture. Don't you realize that Gaza was administered by Egypt for decades, and these two peoples have interacted for thousands of years ??? Palestinians are quite familiar with Egyptian culture. And millions of Palestinians work and live all over the Middle East and North Africa, as well as in Europe, the U.S., and more. They are a quite cosmopolitan people -- probably the most cosmopolitan of all ME/NA people (due to the conflict there, and the massive numbers driven out.) The great majority of Palestinians have far more understanding of and experience with "other places" than you want to admit.

Now for a jordanian to come onto your post and hold her self as an expernt on mena culture is absurd.

Teehee. And *you're* an American who by your own account has been to Algeria and Morocco "3 times," yet you are holding *yourself* up as an expert. Do tell.

So here we have some jordanian ( god bless jordan) telling you married to a Moroccan Allousa with a Moroccan daughter that you dont not MENA culture? Well you dont know JORDANIAN CULTURE ( neither o i) but there is a good chance that you are pretty familiar with Moroccan because you have a baby with one and are married to one.

Silly silly woman. Allousa's husband is not Moroccan, he is PALESTINIAN. Not an EXILE but a REFUGEE living in Morocco. Ask her -- she will tell you he is NOT Moroccan. Of course he is experienced in Moroccan culture, as well as that of his own homeland. And her knowledge has come through actual experience in Morocco, not through some "symbiosis" of being married.

"Culture" is not passed through marriage, nor through the father's seed or the mother's umbilical cord. Simply getting married to a foreigner or bearing his child does not impart any inherent cultural sense or understanding, neither to the spouse nor the parent nor the baby. Culture is learned, not inherited.

But please DO keep posting. We are enjoying the entertainment.

Excellent post MK.

I am going to count myself among the lucky who only had positive experiences in the MIDDLE EAST/JORDAN. Also brings up a question I ask myself. If you had such a bad experience ie Jealousy/divorce among others dealing with middle eastern or north african men why would a person go back to marrying a ME/NA man a second time? Just thinking to myself about that question.

[doodlebug 3]

I can;t help but be reminded of all the Italian Americans I have known. Thye definatelysee themselves as Italians linked to the mother country. Proud of their heritage, but they are simply not Italian, nor do they have any idea of what it means to be an Italian. My Italian friends are quite amused by Italian Americans claims to be Italian. The re two cultures- Italian and Italian American.

What amazes me is how so many people love to pontificate on their "expertise" and dismiss other experiences just to protect their own belief of what is right. Seems to me a little humility and openmindedness would make one a much better "expert" than spending all the engery in defending oneself.

Great. Just great. Now I want a cannoli and a cappucino.

[ya falaha! 0]

This is very true. My 1/2 Arab sons are 100% American culturally speaking (esp. my older boy). They pick up things here and there while they're visiting their father's country but I notice they lose it quickly once they're back here. The only thing they don't lose is the language and IMO that's the most important thing to keep.

"Culture" is not passed through marriage, nor through the father's seed or the mother's umbilical cord. Simply getting married to a foreigner or bearing his child does not impart any inherent cultural sense or understanding, neither to the spouse nor the parent nor the baby. Culture is learned, not inherited.

[mybackpages 0]

I can;t help but be reminded of all the Italian Americans I have known. Thye definatelysee themselves as Italians linked to the mother country. Proud of their heritage, but they are simply not Italian, nor do they have any idea of what it means to be an Italian. My Italian friends are quite amused by Italian Americans claims to be Italian. The re two cultures- Italian and Italian American.

What amazes me is how so many people love to pontificate on their "expertise" and dismiss other experiences just to protect their own belief of what is right. Seems to me a little humility and openmindedness would make one a much better "expert" than spending all the engery in defending oneself.

Great. Just great. Now I want a cannoli and a cappucino.

[belinda63 3,031]

ok, major dog fight going on here.

People are people and they are a product of the culture in which they are raised whether that is middle eastern, european, or whatever. When two ppl who are in love marry they have to learn to compromise, and that means both of them give and take.

My mother is German, I was raised having access to beer from the time I can remember and with partial nudity being no big deal. Not that she ran around the house naked or anything, but seeing children nude at the pool or women topless was no big deal.

My fiancee, who is from iran, has been to sweden several times, the last time I was with him. Of course at the beach some women were topless, some children were nude. Yes he was shocked, but he dealt with it as being a part of the swedish culture. No I did not go topless, not only out of respect for him but also because well, i'm shy.

Please stop trying to portray all ppl from certain areas as the same. some are more open minded than others, some have had more strict upbringing, some have outgrown their culture. Just remember to relate things to how they were raised and understand why maybe they are shocked by some things they see or we do. It takes time to understand a new culture and time to adapt to things you have never experienced.