And speaking of jealousy....

[Ban Hammer 13,109]

If I said I think Charles is spiteful because of this, that is not generalizing. If I said I don't like my sister in law because of a specific reason, that is not generalizing. To say all arabic women are spiteful because one arabic woman pissed you off is generalizing.

it's still based on your perception of things...which may or may not be right.....no different than what that one gal was saying, isn't it? the fact remains she's the one that was there firsthand, no one else was.

Its completely different. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. The fact that she was there means squat. We were all there otherwise none of use would have been able to file. To brand all women in MENA as spiteful and jealous is wrong. I'm sure if someone was generalizing about the military or Brazilian people, you would have plenty to say about that.

nor can i help you and a few others it seems. you and others seem intent to verbally flog the poster into silence. those wahrania encounted helped her form that opinion so from her perspective it does include everyone. that's her viewpoint based on her personal experience so why berate her about it? surely this thread has increased everyone's awareness about such and perhaps they'll be more aware of things on their next trip. and yes, it's obvious that she didn't meet every woman in mena and it's apparent that such is exaggeration, but it's her opinion...is no one's opinion other than a select few around here valuable or worth reading?

the browbeating of the newbies and how their opinions/experiences are discounted so easily and in some cases, liberally attacked, when such could be handled with far greater diplomacy and tact is what drives off more than a few vj'ers from mena. i find it quiet odd that pretty much everyone in mena has quiet a bit in common yet there is always something to fight about.....why? discuss and solve amongst yourselves......

I can't believe you're having to explain the simple concept of "generalization." Geez. What grade are these people in ?

haven't you gotten carpel tunnel from patting yourself on the back too much?

[♥JP♥ 5]

If I said I think Charles is spiteful because of this, that is not generalizing. If I said I don't like my sister in law because of a specific reason, that is not generalizing. To say all arabic women are spiteful because one arabic woman pissed you off is generalizing.

it's still based on your perception of things...which may or may not be right.....no different than what that one gal was saying, isn't it? the fact remains she's the one that was there firsthand, no one else was.

Its completely different. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. The fact that she was there means squat. We were all there otherwise none of use would have been able to file. To brand all women in MENA as spiteful and jealous is wrong. I'm sure if someone was generalizing about the military or Brazilian people, you would have plenty to say about that.

nor can i help you and a few others it seems. you and others seem intent to verbally flog the poster into silence. those wahrania encounted helped her form that opinion so from her perspective it does include everyone. that's her viewpoint based on her personal experience so why berate her about it? surely this thread has increased everyone's awareness about such and perhaps they'll be more aware of things on their next trip. and yes, it's obvious that she didn't meet every woman in mena and it's apparent that such is exaggeration, but it's her opinion...is no one's opinion other than a select few around here valuable or worth reading?

the browbeating of the newbies and how their opinions/experiences are discounted so easily and in some cases, liberally attacked, when such could be handled with far greater diplomacy and tact is what drives off more than a few vj'ers from mena. i find it quiet odd that pretty much everyone in mena has quiet a bit in common yet there is always something to fight about.....why? discuss and solve amongst yourselves......

I can't believe you're having to explain the simple concept of "generalization." Geez. What grade are these people in ?

haven't you gotten carpel tunnel from patting yourself on the back too much?

Wahrania has been anything but silent. How did I berate her? If anything I feel like I am being berated since I am one for the few arabic women on this site. If you go back and read, Wahrania was the one attacking an entire group of women as it has been pointed out already. However it doesnt suprise me that it doesn't bother since we are talking about a race of people that you could care less about as you have stated several times.

If people want to post opinions that is fine, but others are also entitled to their own opinions. Are we not allowed to debate here? AND if you want us to discuss and solve among ourselves then why do you feel the need to insert yourself into every discussion?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

AND if you want us to discuss and solve among ourselves then why do you feel the need to insert yourself into every discussion?

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Wahrania your views on Arabic women are so ignorant, same as your views on Palestinian people. You live in a world where you generalize everything based our your very limited experiances. Its so pathetic to just assume that a woman is jealous of you. Yes I said assume because up until now you have not given one solid reason as to why anyone would be jealous of you.

I have never once said anyone was jealous of me. Not one time. And if someone batters and batters you and has a corrosive personality then you meet 5 or 6 more people that act identically to them ,its easy to have misconception. And I NEVER GENERALISED about all women. If you carefully read I qualify the fact that jealousy is a fact of life and pervasive. I did not state the orignal comments. I just added to them. I have a right to my opinion and if I have experienced certain things first hand watching the treatment of friends and watching what happened to them I have a right to talk about it. Read through Henias and several other peoples posts and you will see that I am supportive of the concept but have not experienced much of it first hand. I do not have blanket views on anyone. But I will call things as I see them and if I have had bad experiences and friends of mine have as well I certainly will not be bullied into silence. Or visajourney "comment bombed" into submission. I think there is nothing wrong with talking about the real life experiences of the people on the boards . Good and bad. These boards are for people going through the immigration process. So far most of the mena bullying is from people long finished. Go to the top of the screen and type in bully or bullying and mena in the vj search engine.. This board in particular has a group of people who terrorise newbies shout down everyone that does not agree with them. I am here for IMMIGRATION not for a bunch of harpies long finished who should be eating dinner with their husbands ( lucky them that their men are here) instead of lurking around the boards criticising offering their limited advice and pretty much just condescending to everyone. There are some good postings from June from some bully victims. Take a look. And I dont have a view about all people from anywhere but I certainly will not hestitate to talk about the truth.... anything from personal experiences,things I have seen happen in real life..... I will not because there are very few forums to get the low down on things. Telling these Americans that they will face roses and sunshine and then that people do bad things to them that it isnt realy happening is irresponsible. No..not all women in any group are bad but discounting the reality of what women on the boards have experienced or minimising it is just not fair to the womenl . I wish I had more forthright information on not only marriage fraud in order to help some of my friends who were victims of it ( as to what to look for) but I think anywhere where dialogue is shouted down is dangerous. There is some truth to what I am saying or it would not provoke such a reaction. If your best friend was blown apart by a suicide bomb and people laughed after it happened chances are you would have an issue with the bomber and his family huh? Same goes for personal experience. If you watched a friend terrorised by the female members of her husbands family and this girl was a saint, you would be very aware that sometimes women can be very snarky. American arab or otherwise, and yes. JEALOUS. I have not personally had this happen because I am already aware of what i am walking into ( apparently not in the microcosm of mena... I thought I could freely speak) Oh well. snark snark

[allousa 1]

Wahrania your views on Arabic women are so ignorant, same as your views on Palestinian people. You live in a world where you generalize everything based our your very limited experiances. Its so pathetic to just assume that a woman is jealous of you. Yes I said assume because up until now you have not given one solid reason as to why anyone would be jealous of you.

jp, don't all of us do that?

No.

sure you do. everyone does. i'm sure you've got quite a few generalizations about me

Saying arabic women are spiteful because of your limited experiance with a few is ignorant. The same as saying Palestinian people are bad because there are some in your town you don't like.

To say I don't like Charles because of xyz is not a generalization.

you're having your cake and eating it too with that above. if she says that about people based on their behavior towards her, how is that different than you saying you don't like me based on xyz other than the former is based on real life experiences (albeit limited) and the latter on what one types on the internet?

If I said I think Charles is spiteful because of this, that is not generalizing. If I said I don't like my sister in law because of a specific reason, that is not generalizing. To say all arabic women are spiteful because one arabic woman pissed you off is generalizing.

I'm quite surprised that many of you weren't offended by the suggestion that Western women marry the "rejects" of MENA. I thought this was way out of line to assume this. Unless the person has knowledge of everyone's situation, how can that generaization be made? I certainly don't consider my husband a reject! I find that EXTREMELY offensive that someone would say that.

That is not a generalization, that is culture. No one ever said your husband was a reject or that these men are rejects, quite the contrary. I even said they are great guys but the way the culture is, they have to be financially stable before approaching a girls family for marriage.

Keep in mind that arrangments for marriage are not just between the two people wishing to get married but the family is heavily involved. My father would not give my hand in marriage to someone that was unemployed and had no money. Thats just the way society works overthere. Its not out of line to say that at all.

My husband doesn't even fit into this "generalization". He made very good money here in the States (where we met) and his family owns a successful business and I'm sure all of the brothers have the means to provide for a wife. My husband's family have never put an emphasis on all that you have stated above. Do you know for a fact that all of the women on VJ fit into your mentioned generalization? Just say'in...if people are going to have drama over one person making a sweeping generalization, rather hypocritical to make one yourself.

I'm just sick and tired of all the freak'in drama on those posts.

[Ban Hammer 13,109]

Wahrania has been anything but silent. How did I berate her? If anything I feel like I am being berated since I am one for the few arabic women on this site. If you go back and read, Wahrania was the one attacking an entire group of women as it has been pointed out already. However it doesnt suprise me that it doesn't bother since we are talking about a race of people that you could care less about as you have stated several times.

If people want to post opinions that is fine, but others are also entitled to their own opinions. Are we not allowed to debate here? AND if you want us to discuss and solve among ourselves then why do you feel the need to insert yourself into every discussion?

for now she's not silent, but that could change given the hostilities directed at her. yes, i've read what she posted. yes i've read what you've posted. whether i stated it's about a race i could care less about or not is a diversionary tactic to deflect from what you and others are doing - verbally beating wahrania over the head time and again.

so if "others are also entitled to their own opinions" why are you so up in arms about what she said? can't people have a different opinion than yours?

i was also not aware that anyone had to pass a test or have a membership card to post here either

[sarah and hicham 3]

Wahrania your views on Arabic women are so ignorant, same as your views on Palestinian people. You live in a world where you generalize everything based our your very limited experiances. Its so pathetic to just assume that a woman is jealous of you. Yes I said assume because up until now you have not given one solid reason as to why anyone would be jealous of you.

I have never once said anyone was jealous of me. Not one time. And if someone batters and batters you and has a corrosive personality then you meet 5 or 6 more people that act identically to them ,its easy to have misconception. And I NEVER GENERALISED about all women. If you carefully read I qualify the fact that jealousy is a fact of life and pervasive. I did not state the orignal comments. I just added to them. I have a right to my opinion and if I have experienced certain things first hand watching the treatment of friends and watching what happened to them I have a right to talk about it. Read through Henias and several other peoples posts and you will see that I am supportive of the concept but have not experienced much of it first hand. I do not have blanket views on anyone. But I will call things as I see them and if I have had bad experiences and friends of mine have as well I certainly will not be bullied into silence. Or visajourney "comment bombed" into submission. I think there is nothing wrong with talking about the real life experiences of the people on the boards . Good and bad. These boards are for people going through the immigration process. So far most of the mena bullying is from people long finished. Go to the top of the screen and type in bully or bullying and mena in the vj search engine.. This board in particular has a group of people who terrorise newbies shout down everyone that does not agree with them. I am here for IMMIGRATION not for a bunch of harpies long finished who should be eating dinner with their husbands ( lucky them that their men are here) instead of lurking around the boards criticising offering their limited advice and pretty much just condescending to everyone. There are some good postings from June from some bully victims. Take a look. And I dont have a view about all people from anywhere but I certainly will not hestitate to talk about the truth.... anything from personal experiences,things I have seen happen in real life..... I will not because there are very few forums to get the low down on things. Telling these Americans that they will face roses and sunshine and then that people do bad things to them that it isnt realy happening is irresponsible. No..not all women in any group are bad but discounting the reality of what women on the boards have experienced or minimising it is just not fair to the womenl . I wish I had more forthright information on not only marriage fraud in order to help some of my friends who were victims of it ( as to what to look for) but I think anywhere where dialogue is shouted down is dangerous. There is some truth to what I am saying or it would not provoke such a reaction. If your best friend was blown apart by a suicide bomb and people laughed after it happened chances are you would have an issue with the bomber and his family huh? Same goes for personal experience. If you watched a friend terrorised by the female members of her husbands family and this girl was a saint, you would be very aware that sometimes women can be very snarky. American arab or otherwise, and yes. JEALOUS. I have not personally had this happen because I am already aware of what i am walking into ( apparently not in the microcosm of mena... I thought I could freely speak) Oh well. snark snark

You have almost left me completely speechless with your posts.

Fortunately, I still have it in me to say that you are mental and you scare me.

[mybackpages 0]

[♥JP♥ 5]

My husband doesn't even fit into this "generalization". He made very good money here in the States (where we met) and his family owns a successful business and I'm sure all of the brothers have the means to provide for a wife. My husband's family have never put an emphasis on all that you have stated above. Do you know for a fact that all of the women on VJ fit into your mentioned generalization? Just say'in...if people are going to have drama over one person making a sweeping generalization, rather hypocritical to make one yourself.

I'm just sick and tired of all the freak'in drama on those posts.

The fact that you met your husband here clearly means this doesn't apply to you. If his family owns a successful business and all his brothers have means for providing for their wives, again tell me how what I said applies to you?

Secondly I never said that this applies to all the women in VJ. If you wish to call it a generalization to make yourself feel better thats on you but the fact remains this is cultural. The other thing is I never spoke in absolutes, I NEVER said all. What I did say that is that *most* of these men do not have the means financially to get married to a girl within their communties at the current time. I never said they were rejects. I never judged them for that. If you want to take what I said out of context, then go for it. Several members have already posted that they agree with what I said, and it was not an insult.

You clearly don't get how MENA culture and traditions work.

Wahrania has been anything but silent. How did I berate her? If anything I feel like I am being berated since I am one for the few arabic women on this site. If you go back and read, Wahrania was the one attacking an entire group of women as it has been pointed out already. However it doesnt suprise me that it doesn't bother since we are talking about a race of people that you could care less about as you have stated several times.

If people want to post opinions that is fine, but others are also entitled to their own opinions. Are we not allowed to debate here? AND if you want us to discuss and solve among ourselves then why do you feel the need to insert yourself into every discussion?

for now she's not silent, but that could change given the hostilities directed at her. yes, i've read what she posted. yes i've read what you've posted. whether i stated it's about a race i could care less about or not is a diversionary tactic to deflect from what you and others are doing - verbally beating wahrania over the head time and again.

so if "others are also entitled to their own opinions" why are you so up in arms about what she said? can't people have a different opinion than yours?

i was also not aware that anyone had to pass a test or have a membership card to post here either

I never said people couldnt have an opinion other than mine, but as they are free to post their opinions, so am I. Did I say anyone needed a membership card or that they couldnt post? NO. You are creating a bunch of BS that has absolutly nothing to do wiht the topic at hand. I can clearly see that nothing has changed since I left and you are still here to jump in and create madness without adding anything significant to the forum.

What you clearly can't see is that Wahrania is responding to the posts and as people respond to her posts. Why do you feel the need to get so involved in something that doesn't involve you? Wahrania has made several insulting comments and posts throughout this entire thread yet you are defending her for the sheer joy you get out of tormenting certain members like myself.

[♥JP♥ 5]

Wahrania, you have said several times that you didn't make any of those statements but here they are as MK already pointed out. Why don't you explain to everyone what you meant? Should we not take this at face value?

Be a part of things with arabs but dont copy them. they are very spiteful and you just have to deal with that. You are taking their man ( even if he is just using you for papers its stilla 5 year loss) and they have issues with it.

Jealousy and man stealing and all this nonsense like SEHOUR and magic is very common in North Africa due to the powerless these women feel. To minimise the fact that they are very spiteful is to leave an American who marries into this very vulernable.

If you have never faced it, then something is very wrong. Most white marriages called MARRIAGE BLANCHE do not face bouts of jealousy because there is an understanding between the people that know the arab and his family that this is for a set period time. Everyone plays the game and henna parties and all that #######.

...

If the marriage is a real one, the likliness of cattiness by women both in the family and neighbors increases because the American or western woman is not just being used for papers . she is taking their man.

...

Its real and it happens and like I told you, if the marriage is just a greencard, many will not threaten your marriage. When there is real marriage and babies involved, all kinds of things hit the fan.

This last time in Egypt I got a TON of really hateful looks in Alex.

I'm starting to really believe about that "evil eye" thing.

Thats cause your marriage is a REAL ONE. the more real the marriage the more the jealousy.

You are not going to see a whole lot of animosity if the husband is telling everyone you are a 5 year gig.

Every MENA experience is going to be different based on the man.

My general objection was that several people on the boards said that JEALOUSY was not something that happened.

It aint really jealousy,its resentment and hate.

I for one never said anyone was jealous of me. I don't know who exactly stated that, you would have to clip and paste from posts to see who said that exactly. I have just been posting my opinions. I have only had one bad experience.

Edited August 9, 2007 by amira_ordonia

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

My husband doesn't even fit into this "generalization". He made very good money here in the States (where we met) and his family owns a successful business and I'm sure all of the brothers have the means to provide for a wife. My husband's family have never put an emphasis on all that you have stated above. Do you know for a fact that all of the women on VJ fit into your mentioned generalization? Just say'in...if people are going to have drama over one person making a sweeping generalization, rather hypocritical to make one yourself.

I'm just sick and tired of all the freak'in drama on those posts.

The fact that you met your husband here clearly means this doesn't apply to you. If his family owns a successful business and all his brothers have means for providing for their wives, again tell me how what I said applies to you?

Secondly I never said that this applies to all the women in VJ. If you wish to call it a generalization to make yourself feel better thats on you but the fact remains this is cultural. The other thing is I never spoke in absolutes, I NEVER said all. What I did say that is that *most* of these men do not have the means financially to get married to a girl within their communties at the current time. I never said they were rejects. I never judged them for that. If you want to take what I said out of context, then go for it. Several members have already posted that they agree with what I said, and it was not an insult.

You clearly don't get how MENA culture and traditions work.

Wahrania has been anything but silent. How did I berate her? If anything I feel like I am being berated since I am one for the few arabic women on this site. If you go back and read, Wahrania was the one attacking an entire group of women as it has been pointed out already. However it doesnt suprise me that it doesn't bother since we are talking about a race of people that you could care less about as you have stated several times.

If people want to post opinions that is fine, but others are also entitled to their own opinions. Are we not allowed to debate here? AND if you want us to discuss and solve among ourselves then why do you feel the need to insert yourself into every discussion?

for now she's not silent, but that could change given the hostilities directed at her. yes, i've read what she posted. yes i've read what you've posted. whether i stated it's about a race i could care less about or not is a diversionary tactic to deflect from what you and others are doing - verbally beating wahrania over the head time and again.

so if "others are also entitled to their own opinions" why are you so up in arms about what she said? can't people have a different opinion than yours?

i was also not aware that anyone had to pass a test or have a membership card to post here either

I never said people couldnt have an opinion other than mine, but as they are free to post their opinions, so am I. Did I say anyone needed a membership card or that they couldnt post? NO. You are creating a bunch of BS that has absolutly nothing to do wiht the topic at hand. I can clearly see that nothing has changed since I left and you are still here to jump in and create madness without adding anything significant to the forum.

What you clearly can't see is that Wahrania is responding to the posts and as people respond to her posts. Why do you feel the need to get so involved in something that doesn't involve you? Wahrania has made several insulting comments and posts throughout this entire thread yet you are defending her for the sheer joy you get out of tormenting certain members like myself.

I think you need to go re read through all of the posts and then see the progression. Not all arab women are bad.. not all american women are bad... but there are people on these boards who have had run ins with family members and others who have pretty much terrorised them. Wahrania as you say is just a human being and I at least am responding unlike the dozen women who have left mena after a tussle or 2 with the know it alls. Telling these american women the junk you are telling them is generalising too. I dont think I have said much worse than alot of other people and I certainly have never said all arab women are bad. Thats a load of #######. Telling me I need to listen to a couple of women harping on and on that are not even in the process is ####### too. I am in the middle of this and VJ is for people that are presently going through this stuff... not so people who have nothing better to do can lurk and stalk people on the boards belittling them.

Dont believe me? google mena and bullying in the vj search bar and go back into the springs postings and especially june just to get a really good idea of just how many these harpies have run off the boards... People who probably needed to be here. I read the posts and I think its time the bullying end.

[LaL 418]

you guys will need to display a bit more tact or this thread will be closed.

[mybackpages 0]

you guys will need to display a bit more tact or this thread will be closed.

Please do it. Please. Tell me what I have to post to get it to stop?

[♥JP♥ 5]

[

I think you need to go re read through all of the posts and then see the progression. Not all arab women are bad.. not all american women are bad... but there are people on these boards who have had run ins with family members and others who have pretty much terrorised them. Wahrania as you say is just a human being and I at least am responding unlike the dozen women who have left mena after a tussle or 2 with the know it alls. Telling these american women the junk you are telling them is generalising too. I dont think I have said much worse than alot of other people and I certainly have never said all arab women are bad. Thats a load of #######. Telling me I need to listen to a couple of women harping on and on that are not even in the process is ####### too. I am in the middle of this and VJ is for people that are presently going through this stuff... not so people who have nothing better to do can lurk and stalk people on the boards belittling them.

Dont believe me? google mena and bullying in the vj search bar and go back into the springs postings and especially june just to get a really good idea of just how many these harpies have run off the boards... People who probably needed to be here. I read the posts and I think its time the bullying end.

What exactly is the junk I am telling american women? That it is uncommon that a man would apprach a womans family without the financial means to marry? Thats not junk honey, thats a cultural fact.

Are you trying to say that I am not going through the immigration process? You are not in the middle of this process, you are at the very beginning. I am in the middle, just because he got his visa and came here doesn't mean we are done with immigration.

You talk ####### and you don't back it up. I just re-posted the post that MK put together with all the things you have said. Why don't you address that instead of dragging this on? You keep saying you didnt say any of it, but its all there in black and white.

[mybackpages 0]

Dont believe me? google mena and bullying in the vj search bar and go back into the springs postings and especially june just to get a really good idea of just how many these harpies have run off the boards... People who probably needed to be here. I read the posts and I think its time the bullying end.

you really don't realize just how insane your accusations are do you? Last time you dropped in this exactly thing happened. all someone needs to google is your name..it all starts to make sense. If you are sincere about wanting a community to discuss this process with, then why don;t you listen and learn a little before passing judgements left and right?