Sicko

[homesick_american 1]

quote" I've been a fan since the TV Nation days but I won't be going to see Sicko. Basically, the bits about the NHS are lies...pure lies...and sincerely doubt that the rest of the movie would be lie or exaggeration-free."

So, if you haven't seen the movie how are you in a position to know what he says about NHS, let alone that they are lies? It is easy to dismiss something when you don't know what you are talking about. The solution is to become informed - see the movie, then state that the bits about NHS are lies. Your position will have a lot more credibility.

I've read about those segments in the press and have seen various clips, so don't assume that I'm speaking from a position of complete ignorance. I just love it when people make incorrect assumptions. Maybe you should become informed about what *I* have read and seen before calling me ignorant.

I'm so irritated by the outright lies about the NHS that I refuse to spend my own money to see this film. If someone wants to buy me a ticket, I'll gladly watch it. However, Mr Moore already has enough of my money as I own every book he's ever written and every film/TV show he's done up to this point. He won't be getting any more of my money but feel free to give him YOURS. That's my solution for you.

So are you saying you HAVE seen the movie? It sure sounds like you have to be making such comments about it.

I've seen clips and read articles about how the film regards the NHS and having lived in the UK for six years, I know Moore's claims about the NHS are propaganda at best. I don't pay good money to watch propaganda but like I said, if someone were to give me a free ticket to see 'Sicko' I might go. I don't think US healthcare is perfect, but there's a lot of half-truths floating around and a film like this obscures the truth rather than exposing it. I would never EVER support an NHS system in the USA, but that does not mean that I wouldn't support universal healthcare. However, the NHS sucks. It sucks rocks. Since you're Canadian I assume you have no experience with the NHS and are not in a position to speak either way about Moore's treatment of it in the film, n'est-ce pas?

Essentially, the people going to see 'Sicko' are people who already agree with what Moore has to say. This isn't going to do a thing to address the healthcare crisis in the United States and IMHO it will do more to STIFLE debate rather than to encourage it. Mention you've seen 'Sicko' to a Republican and that's pretty much the end of the convo.

[Fuzzness 2]

quote" I've been a fan since the TV Nation days but I won't be going to see Sicko. Basically, the bits about the NHS are lies...pure lies...and sincerely doubt that the rest of the movie would be lie or exaggeration-free."

So, if you haven't seen the movie how are you in a position to know what he says about NHS, let alone that they are lies? It is easy to dismiss something when you don't know what you are talking about. The solution is to become informed - see the movie, then state that the bits about NHS are lies. Your position will have a lot more credibility.

I've read about those segments in the press and have seen various clips, so don't assume that I'm speaking from a position of complete ignorance. I just love it when people make incorrect assumptions. Maybe you should become informed about what *I* have read and seen before calling me ignorant.

I'm so irritated by the outright lies about the NHS that I refuse to spend my own money to see this film. If someone wants to buy me a ticket, I'll gladly watch it. However, Mr Moore already has enough of my money as I own every book he's ever written and every film/TV show he's done up to this point. He won't be getting any more of my money but feel free to give him YOURS. That's my solution for you.

So are you saying you HAVE seen the movie? It sure sounds like you have to be making such comments about it.

I've seen clips and read articles about how the film regards the NHS and having lived in the UK for six years, I know Moore's claims about the NHS are propaganda at best. I don't pay good money to watch propaganda but like I said, if someone were to give me a free ticket to see 'Sicko' I might go. I don't think US healthcare is perfect, but there's a lot of half-truths floating around and a film like this obscures the truth rather than exposing it. I would never EVER support an NHS system in the USA, but that does not mean that I wouldn't support universal healthcare. However, the NHS sucks. It sucks rocks. Since you're Canadian I assume you have no experience with the NHS and are not in a position to speak either way about Moore's treatment of it in the film, n'est-ce pas?

Essentially, the people going to see 'Sicko' are people who already agree with what Moore has to say. This isn't going to do a thing to address the healthcare crisis in the United States and IMHO it will do more to STIFLE debate rather than to encourage it. Mention you've seen 'Sicko' to a Republican and that's pretty much the end of the convo.

I've not made any comments about the movie, I've not seen it. What I am saying is that you seem to be speaking like you are an authority on this movie and have not even seen it. What is your agenda?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Within the G7 (G8 sans Russia), the UK and US take the second to last and last spot in life expectancy and both take back seats also in regards to infant mortality where the US manages to even fall behind Cuba. That says something about the health care systems in both the UK and US. I don't know the former but I do know the latter and it utterly sucks.

Edited July 9, 2007 by ET-US2004

[SqdnGuns 21]

Within the G7 (G8 sans Russia), the UK and US take the second to last and last spot in life expectancy and both take back seats also in regards to infant mortality where the US manages to even fall behind Cuba. That says something about the health care systems in both the UK and US. I don't know the former but I do know the latter and it utterly sucks.

Think preemies................

The more preemies that are brought into the world, odds are many of them will not survive. Look at what fertility drugs do, woman gets preggers with 6 kids and 3 survive after birth...............that's 50% right there.

I reckon those numbers are for live births, right? So a preemie is a live birth.............

Edited July 9, 2007 by SqdnGuns

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Within the G7 (G8 sans Russia), the UK and US take the second to last and last spot in life expectancy and both take back seats also in regards to infant mortality where the US manages to even fall behind Cuba. That says something about the health care systems in both the UK and US. I don't know the former but I do know the latter and it utterly sucks.

Think preemies................

The more preemies that are brought into the world, odds are many of them will not survive. Look at what fertility drugs do, woman gets preggers with 6 kids and 3 survive after birth...............that's 50% right there.

I reckon those numbers are for live births, right? So a preemie is a live birth.............

The low life expectancy. Preemies, too?

Rather, think bad excuse for a health care system....

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Rather, think bad excuse for a health care system....

for which the US spends the same amount of PUBLIC MONEY (as a percentage of GDP) as Britain, Switzerland, Canada and Japan and these countries have universal healthcare. (France and Germany spend only marginally more)

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Also, with regards to the NHS - I have experienced it (and I've seen Sicko). I also had private healthcare in hte UK provided by my employer through BUPA. I never once used BUPA. I also have a chronic eye condition. When I returned to the US, the HMO I initially joined (through my employer) refused to pay for all of the treatment I needed I have since changed providers and my treatment is paid for but the co-pays can be pretty steep. I paid nothing on the NHS, yet my insurance costs quite a bit more than what I paid on National Insurance. I'm lucky to have a choice of insurer through my employer - most other Americans are not.

[Griffon76 0]

I was just reading most of this thread and I have to say it left me crying...My father passed away one month ago because of the negligence of the veterans hospital he was in. He had to have a trach because his esophagus was swollen and he couldn't swallow and had breathing difficulties. He was getting great care until they decided to close down the critical care unit and make them into offices. He was moved to the private ward in a room by himself. My mother went crying to the head nurse that he needed 24/7 supervision (stated on his chart) due to mucous build up that could block the trach. Well that night a mucous plug lodged in it and no one checked on him for over 40 minutes! He suffocated!! They brought him back but he had 100% brain damage and seizures. He died not long after that. My mother does anesthesia in that hospital (for 29 years) and said "I gave 110% to care for the veterans under my care. Why couldn't they take good care of mine!!?" It's heartbreaking and I cry every time I think of my father. I am so glad he got to meet my husband and place my hand in his at our wedding! He loved my husband in the short time they had together. He called him 'son'....The heartbreaking part of THAT is...my husband's parents passed away about 9 years ago and he was looking forward to being close to my dad. I'm so sorry I ranted here but I needed to share. I can't help but think as I'm crying here, that my mother feels it 10x worse. Here is a pic of them....

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/gri...JerryJoanne.jpg

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Rather, think bad excuse for a health care system....

for which the US spends the same amount of PUBLIC MONEY (as a percentage of GDP) as Britain, Switzerland, Canada and Japan and these countries have universal healthcare. (France and Germany spend only marginally more)

Add to that the private money that goes into healthcare here in the US and you have the most expensive system anywhere. As a whole, the population benefits less from that system, though, than the populations of any other industrialized nation benefit from theirs. Hands down, the most bureaucratic system with the most red-tape and wasteful overhead is that run by private firms in the US. The governments, even this one, are much more efficient in this sector.

Edited July 10, 2007 by ET-US2004

[SqdnGuns 21]

I was just reading most of this thread and I have to say it left me crying...My father passed away one month ago because of the negligence of the veterans hospital he was in. He had to have a trach because his esophagus was swollen and he couldn't swallow and had breathing difficulties. He was getting great care until they decided to close down the critical care unit and make them into offices. He was moved to the private ward in a room by himself. My mother went crying to the head nurse that he needed 24/7 supervision (stated on his chart) due to mucous build up that could block the trach. Well that night a mucous plug lodged in it and no one checked on him for over 40 minutes! He suffocated!! They brought him back but he had 100% brain damage and seizures. He died not long after that. My mother does anesthesia in that hospital (for 29 years) and said "I gave 110% to care for the veterans under my care. Why couldn't they take good care of mine!!?" It's heartbreaking and I cry every time I think of my father. I am so glad he got to meet my husband and place my hand in his at our wedding! He loved my husband in the short time they had together. He called him 'son'....The heartbreaking part of THAT is...my husband's parents passed away about 9 years ago and he was looking forward to being close to my dad. I'm so sorry I ranted here but I needed to share. I can't help but think as I'm crying here, that my mother feels it 10x worse. Here is a pic of them....

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/gri...JerryJoanne.jpg

Sorry for your loss, it always saddens me when another Vet hears Taps.

[~Nini~ 2]

Bee just showed me this rather provocative and volatile interview between Michael Moore and Wolf Blitzer on CNN:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/

I admit that Moore does come across quite aggressively here, but he relevantly speaks about the topic between his "I told you so"s.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Nini & Bee

[Emancipation 2]

Bee just showed me this rather provocative and volatile interview between Michael Moore and Wolf Blitzer on CNN:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/

I admit that Moore does come across quite aggressively here, but he relevantly speaks about the topic between his "I told you so"s.

Thanks for that clip!! I've just finished watching it and I have to admit that It makes me sad. How do you get the other side to give you a hearing? How do you present a case in a way that gets the maximum viewership? I agree.. the cold hard facts need to be looked at - but IMHO presenting the facts for what they are and allowing the people of America to then determine their own responses and conclusions, may be a more "palatable" way of approaching the other side. I understand Mr. Moore is cheezed off, and I can appreciate how tired he is of whistle blowing without results. But that in itself would cause me to look at my approach. One can be saying truth, but sometimes it's in the WAY we say things more than what we say.

Also, I haven't seen the movie yet, so i'm not sure what he's claiming but comparing Cuba to the US in health care isn't really apples to apples is it? I have a friend who visited Cuba for vacation and had to have a medical done by a Cuban Dr. for Scuba Diving, and he was charged 10$ USD for it (he said he was there almost an hr). He said he felt like a JERK because that was all the Dr. could accept by law, and he knew very well he deserved a HECK of a lot more for his services.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Emancipation

[Carlawarla 1]

I started this post, and haven't posted anything since as I'm still processing...haha

Whether you agree with Michael Moore or not, a movie that can be a catayst for change is always a good thing in my mind. What stirs the passions can lead to proactive participation for change.

My basic premise was not to compare the different health systems really. I'm sorry so many people here in the US have to pay so much for their health insurance. I guess my belief is that no one should pay anything, and the costs incurred through medical expenses should come from the tax base.

Another aspect I guess which leads me to so much dispair, is the disrespect that is given to those that don't have any health insurance. At one time, the people in the USA, cared for their "neighbours". There was a sense of "community". I find in many places, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. People are so caught up in what "they" have, vs. what "everyone" can have. Like....I have to look out for "me", damn the rest.

There is definitely something wrong with the health care system when people are "delighted" and "estatic", about their premiums being reduced and/or subsidized from $1000.00 a month to just $700.00 a month, as I read in an article of a family of five in the North East sometime last week.

Hopefully their will be some changes in the health care system with a new government in the ensuing years. This current government is in "bed" with the pharmaceutical industry and big business HMO's.

There has been some wonderful comments and debate on this thread. Thanks so much for contributing to help me in my processing!

Carla

[neiks 19]

I find in many places, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. People are so caught up in what "they" have, vs. what "everyone" can have. Like....I have to look out for "me", damn the rest.

I couldn't agree more with this. I am often questioned about our medical system and how I like paying higher taxes to pay for others needs, ie social programs, medicare, etc. This is how I see it: I have a federal job, make decent money and pay a good chunck of taxes. Less than 8 years ago I worked in the administative field and before that the service/hospitality field. My income was basically peanuts and I was single then. I worked with people that made the same amount of money as I did(minimum wage or slightly better) and had families to support. Some worked 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet - hard working people. Those people did not have to worry about trying to pay health insurance on top of just paying the mortgage. I sleep well at night knowing that their children will get their medical needs met without their family losing their home. Big deal if I pay 10% more tax (or what ever the difference is). Sure there is flaws and abuse of the system .... there is flaws and abuse of every system but does that mean that it doesn't work in principal?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I find in many places, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. People are so caught up in what "they" have, vs. what "everyone" can have. Like....I have to look out for "me", damn the rest.

I couldn't agree more with this. I am often questioned about our medical system and how I like paying higher taxes to pay for others needs, ie social programs, medicare, etc. This is how I see it: I have a federal job, make decent money and pay a good chunck of taxes. Less than 8 years ago I worked in the administative field and before that the service/hospitality field. My income was basically peanuts and I was single then. I worked with people that made the same amount of money as I did(minimum wage or slightly better) and had families to support. Some worked 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet - hard working people. Those people did not have to worry about trying to pay health insurance on top of just paying the mortgage. I sleep well at night knowing that their children will get their medical needs met without their family losing their home. Big deal if I pay 10% more tax (or what ever the difference is). Sure there is flaws and abuse of the system .... there is flaws and abuse of every system but does that mean that it doesn't work in principal?

The thing is, you don't even pay more there to get everyone covered than people pay here to cover some. So, it's a win-win. The only one's on the losing end would be the insurance companies and HMO's. I couldn't care less.

Edited July 11, 2007 by ET-US2004