The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

The sheer ignorance in this thread is astounding.  Too much hyperbole to even quote.

 

If you want fair taxation, then let's change to a flat-rate tax on goods purchased.  No income tax.  Just pay taxes on what you consume.  Vote it into existence, or shut up about how you pay too much because you're not as smart as those who are making billions.  After all, this is the "land of opportunity".  It is within your grasp, if only you want it badly enough.  Some did, and they have it.

[yuna628 9,671]

19 hours ago, laylalex said:

No one is talking about class warfare. At least no one serious is. What is and should be up for debate is why it is "good" that we have such a lopsided system that punishes the poor and favors the rich at every hurdle.

 

I know where I fit in this structure, and I am one of the "winners." I don't "deserve" my wealth -- I happened to marry someone who is rich, and when we divorced I was compensated as we had agreed. I didn't set out to get divorced when I married him, and I would have married him if he'd just been middle class. I lucked into what I have. I could do just as well with less. I'm lucky to be in a position where I can give meaningful amounts to institutions I believe in. I think many people would look at me and say I'm well off. I don't mean that as a brag, it is what it is. But I'm not affected by the proposed wealth tax plans. The pool of people this will affect is very, very small. But the revenue that could be raised is very, very large. 

 

It's sort of missing the point to mention the former marginal tax rate of 91% without mentioning what it covered -- only that slice of income above $200,000 (about $2m today). Elizabeth Warren's proposal on instituting a wealth tax starts slicing 2% off every dollar in wealth (not income only) above $50 million, with 3% off every dollar above $1 billion. This is, if anything, a far more small-c conservative plan than what was in place in the 1950s.

I don't know why we look at the money someone has in the terms of whether they 'deserve' it or not. You are wealthy, simply put. There are a million more wealthier than you and a million more poorer than you. Who honestly cares? We all have taxes to pay (the old adage of ''nothing certain but death and taxes" comes to mind), and most of us pay them. No matter what financial state we are in, we will hate paying it. Most of us will indeed utilize whatever loopholes or offerings to us to reduce that tax burden no matter if we are rich or poor. Most of us will obtain the essentials we need for survival, and then after that everything we buy is merely wants. I haven't a right to tell you what it is you want, and you haven't a right to tell me what I want. Our financial means are the only restraining construct to obtaining it. I'd rather people like Bezos actually do something helpful for his workers or contribute his money to some greater cause than dumping it into taxes that the government will only waste.

[moxy 1,051]

Just now, yuna628 said:

I don't know why we look at the money someone has in the terms of whether they 'deserve' it or not. You are wealthy, simply put. There are a million more wealthier than you and a million more poorer than you. Who honestly cares? We all have taxes to pay (the old adage of ''nothing certain but death and taxes" comes to mind), and most of us pay them. No matter what financial state we are in, we will hate paying it. Most of us will indeed utilize whatever loopholes or offerings to us to reduce that tax burden no matter if we are rich or poor. Most of us will obtain the essentials we need for survival, and then after that everything we buy is merely wants. I haven't a right to tell you what it is you want, and you haven't a right to tell me what I want. Our financial means are the only restraining construct to obtaining it. I'd rather people like Bezos actually do something helpful for his workers or contribute his money to some greater cause than dumping it into taxes that the government will only waste.

• Nobody is saying that Jeff Bezos' wealth should be confiscated.
• The call is for the ultra-rich to pay their fair share of taxes. The ultra-rich have been writing the tax code for decades, and how about that, it just so happens to highly benefit them.
• Hey, remember the 2017 Trump tax cut? Huge tax cuts for the rich. And hey, tax cuts for the middle class too, cool! Oh... except that starting in 2021, tax cuts for the lower and middle class will be slowly phased out. And by 2027, those tax cuts you were so happy Trump got for you will be completely gone. But not for the rich; they get to keep their tax cuts. The phase-out is just for us chumps.

[Crazy Cat 41,837]

4 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

If you want fair taxation, then let's change to a flat-rate tax on goods purchased.  No income tax.  Just pay taxes on what you consume. 

Actually, that is something I would probably support, provided it completely replaces the income tax AND EVERYONE was subject to this consumption tax .  It puts the individual in more control of his/her own taxes. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Lucky Cat

[moxy 1,051]

8 minutes ago, Lucky Cat said:

Actually, that is something I would probably support, provided it completely replaces the income tax AND EVERYONE was subject to this consumption tax .  It puts the individual in more control of his/her own taxes.

I'm not in favor of a flat tax (start a new topic if you want to discuss, I don't want to hijack this topic), but it does sound like we agree that the ultra-rich should be paying their fair share of tax, no matter the tax structure. Progress!

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

6 hours ago, moxy said:

• Nobody is saying that Jeff Bezos' wealth should be confiscated.
• The call is for the ultra-rich to pay their fair share of taxes. The ultra-rich have been writing the tax code for decades, and how about that, it just so happens to highly benefit them.
• Hey, remember the 2017 Trump tax cut? Huge tax cuts for the rich. And hey, tax cuts for the middle class too, cool! Oh... except that starting in 2021, tax cuts for the lower and middle class will be slowly phased out. And by 2027, those tax cuts you were so happy Trump got for you will be completely gone. But not for the rich; they get to keep their tax cuts. The phase-out is just for us chumps.

The top 10% pay over 70% of all taxes collected. I would say thats their unfair share 

[moxy 1,051]

33 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

The top 10% pay over 70% of all taxes collected. I would say thats their unfair share 

At first glance, it would seem as if the rich are paying more than their fair share. So let's do the math.

 

Imagine you're having dinner at a nice restaurant with 99 of the richest people in the country. Everyone orders the same meal, same beverage.

 

The check arrives. The total bill is $7000. Everyone's fair share is $70. You pay in $70. The rich guys put in $2 each and then walk out.

 

Collectively, all the rich guys at the table payed $198, while you only paid $70. The rich people paid roughly 70% of the money collected, you only paid 30% of the money collected. And yet this does not impress the restaurant staff at all.

 

Do you see the problem here?

[Ban Hammer 13,333]

12 minutes ago, moxy said:

At first glance, it would seem as if the rich are paying more than their fair share. So let's do the math.

 

Imagine you're having dinner at a nice restaurant with 99 of the richest people in the country. Everyone orders the same meal, same beverage.

 

The check arrives. The total bill is $7000. Everyone's fair share is $70. You pay in $70. The rich guys put in $2 each and then walk out.

 

Collectively, all the rich guys at the table payed $198, while you only paid $70. The rich people paid roughly 70% of the money collected, you only paid 30% of the money collected. And yet this does not impress the restaurant staff at all.

 

Do you see the problem here?

yes, i see the problem.  the math is way off on this.  the bill being 7k, and a total of $268 was collected.

[moxy 1,051]

3 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

yes, i see the problem.  the math is way off on this.  the bill being 7k, and a total of $268 was collected.

You are THIS close.

 

Of the $268 collected, the rich guests put in $198.

 

Quote

The top 10% pay over 70% of all taxes collected.

 

[Dashinka 24,489]

13 minutes ago, moxy said:

You are THIS close.

 

Of the $268 collected, the rich guests put in $198.

 

 

So more money needs to be be confiscated?

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

16 hours ago, moxy said:

At first glance, it would seem as if the rich are paying more than their fair share. So let's do the math.

 

Imagine you're having dinner at a nice restaurant with 99 of the richest people in the country. Everyone orders the same meal, same beverage.

 

The check arrives. The total bill is $7000. Everyone's fair share is $70. You pay in $70. The rich guys put in $2 each and then walk out.

 

Collectively, all the rich guys at the table payed $198, while you only paid $70. The rich people paid roughly 70% of the money collected, you only paid 30% of the money collected. And yet this does not impress the restaurant staff at all.

 

Do you see the problem here?

Yes your math

[moxy 1,051]

44 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Yes your math

The math is correct.

[laylalex 7,284]

3 minutes ago, moxy said:

The math is correct.

But the cake is a lie?  

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,370]

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

 

 

The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing;
The fifth would pay $1:
the sixth would pay $3;
the seventh $7;
the eighth $12;
The ninth $18. >
The tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20. "So dinner for the ten only cost $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fairshare?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being paid to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing,
the sixth pitched in $2,
the seventh paid $5,
the eighth paid $9,
the ninth paid $12,
leaving the tenth Man with a of $52 instead of his earlier $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They're $52 short! And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

[moxy 1,051]

 

3 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws.

 

Cool.

 

My reply was in response to this post:

 

On 6/11/2021 at 3:29 PM, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

The top 10% pay over 70% of all taxes collected. I would say thats their unfair share 

You told me I got the math wrong. I didn't get the math wrong. And now you're completely changing the scenario.

 

You guys complain that this place turns into an echo chamber. If you're not going to discuss in good faith, eventually people are just going to get tired of trying to have a discussion while the goal posts are constantly moved.