Bible-A Closer Look!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

the source doesn't matter. is it, or is it not the beliefs of major scholars and imams? were those quotes in the quran or not?

and only the very first sentence i highlighted was from that website, btw!

Hello Well actually the sources does matter. As we humans, do seem to twist and turn evidence to support our view. So as I and many others here have in the past, how about taking religion from the source, not vague, bias views of not qualified posters online or some online fatwa bank. The Qur'an does not lie. And with the same thought, reading the Bible and books of the Torah... probably much smaller way to form our opinions.

And while Google is our friend, googling some key words, then reading the first few lines (online), without actually looking them up is never a good idea. And that comment was not in any directed at you, but to all of us as a reminder. I have no intention of insulting or anyone else here. Thank you for reading my post. May the God guide you in your path. amin

Exactly, Henia -- the source matters a LOT.

Jen -- if you are truly interested in finding out what the Qur'an actually says, it's readily available in English (and many other languages) -- you can find it online. I suggest that you read it for yourself before you cut and paste disembodied passages from dubious sources -- especially ones that are openly hostile to the subject matter -- because when you pick single passages out, you completely lose the context. I realize that all humans have a tendency to seek out things that tell us what we want to hear, reinforcing our own perceptions, but it's important to cross-check the info if you really want to get to the truth.

Your source quotes an "authority" who states that apostates should be killed, but then inserts a "supporting" quote from Qur'an that says nothing of the sort:

Surah 2:217

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

This passage is obviously talking about times of war, and protecting their people and their religion from attack. It doesn't say *anything* about killing apostates.

Then your source cites this as further "proof":

Surah 4:89

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;

but the passage that immediately follows is completely ignored:

Surah 4:90

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

So these passages are also talking about war -- how to treat people who invade and attack you, and how to treat those who approach you in peace.

Here is what Qur'an actually says about apostates:

Surah 4:137:

Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of the truth - God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them in any way.

*Nothing* about putting them to death -- it says God will deal with them. Now if apostates should be put to death, then why does this passage talk about someone who believes, then doesn't, then does again, then doesn't again ? If apostates are supposed to be killed, how would anyone even have the chance to vacillate back and forth ? (Seems this verse should be considered a pretty solid Qur'anic argument *against* the death penalty for apostates...)

Also please remember that not all Hadith are reliable (especially ones compiled 300 years after the Prophet's death.) And every religion has its nut cases who will twist and distort their holy books, or pick and choose certain parts to "follow" while disregarding the rest, or even add their own embellishments -- Christianity and Judaism have had (and still have) their fair share of kooks.

I am at work right now so I don't have a whole lot of time to respond to everyone and everything, but again I strongly encourage you to read for yourself what Qur'an actually says before you draw conclusions based on what a particular website tells you -- especially if it's one that picks out single passages here and there without providing any context (not to mention being openly hostile to the subject.) Caladan had a great analogy on that.

[Henia 11]

Honestly, Jen, I don't believe she said it just to be "rude". It's a valid point since the majority of Muslim men fully expect that their children will be raised Muslim. Now not every Muslim is devout or religious so some may not care either way. My husband, for example, is not religious but he wants his children to be Muslim. It is probably best to discuss religion in regards to children prior to having the children. That is if you do plan to have children. It's not ignorance it's just the way things are. If you (or anyone else) is gonna marry a Muslim even a non religious one please discuss how religion will play into your lives. I must say that based on many comments that you have posted here on VJ it kinda surprises me that you would marry a Muslim man. Sure you're marrying the man not the religion but for many of these men (and women) it comes hand in hand.

yes, i know - which brings me back to my point - how is it ignorant? that was the comment made.

what i think lucky meant, (correct me if i'm wrong) is that she assumed our children would be muslim because my fiance happens to be muslim. she just said it to be rude anyway. i find that quite ignorant myself actually!

Yes, they sure do. I know many non-Muslim people who have married Muslims and basically 2 things have happened: either the non-Muslim slowly gets introduced to Islam and the Muslim culture and slowly kinda blends it in their beings (and some or dare I say many convert) but while others totally refuse to hear anything to do with Islam, soon find out that their spouses will not be deleting the Muslim culture from their being. And the marriages many times endly bitterly. Not saying the Muslim spouse pushes the issue of conversion, buuuuuuut most likely wishes the children to be instilled with the same Muslim morales and culture they were.

i have also personally known happily married interfaith couples (30+ years) who neither converted to either religion. i don't believe there is any reason to delete your own culture because you intertwine your life with another. you can share them an embrace the similarities AND differences together. i'm sure there are also plenty of couples who end up like you described. there really is no black and white in regards to this. any marriage can be blissful or fail! of course having interfaith marriages could possibly put more of a strain on it than others, but it is still possible to have a happy and healthy marriage.

and regards to the source of my quote... the FIRST SENTENCES in my very first paragraph were the only part from that source. again, i ask: does it mean that the imams and scholars don't believe that just because it was on that particular website? i agree that we shouldn't just google and use the first text that comes to the top when quoting something. i did not do that, but just used that particular sentence to be quoted from that website. the quotes from the quran are not. i read websites from pro and anti whatever to get a better view of what i'm reading.

I never said delete Jen. I said intermingle.

i have also personally known happily married interfaith couples (30+ years) who neither converted to either religion. i don't believe there is any reason to delete your own culture because you intertwine your life with another. you can share them an embrace the similarities AND differences together. i'm sure there are also plenty of couples who end up like you described. there really is no black and white in regards to this. any marriage can be blissful or fail! of course having interfaith marriages could possibly put more of a strain on it than others, but it is still possible to have a happy and healthy marriage.

I know that these couples do exist and it is a real possibiity for many couples. Success interfaith marriages are successful because both entered into the relationship with basic core values and understandings of their own identiy. I know couples liek this, but I also know the interfaith couples where the woman gives up her own identiy to conform to the man. (lots of csame faith , same nationalties couples also experience this).

I think the biggest difference about marrying into the Muslim culture is that Islam is not just a religion, but a way of life. It has much more in common with Judaism than Christianity in this regard. Both husband and wife need to understand this and to what extent it will play a role in their lives- esp when children come along.

I've seen way to many American women jump into a relationship with a Muslim man who never bothered to look beyond the honeymoon phase and came into the relationship without a clear understanding of their husband's culture. Conflicts are normal in a bi-national marriage...i like to call them road bumps- things that disrupt the smooth road of marriage. The trick to a successful bi-national, or interfaith marriage is compromise, understanding, and core share values. You need to know expectations of this before going into the marriage.

MBP you hit it on the nail. Your words more understandable then I guess mine. Saha !

[deemabrouk 0]

the source doesn't matter. is it, or is it not the beliefs of major scholars and imams? were those quotes in the quran or not?

and only the very first sentence i highlighted was from that website, btw!

the source 100% matters!!!!!!!!!! how can you feel you are properly educating your self from a bias source??

Have you ever read the quran yourself?? Honestly..

Sometimes I can read the same Sura of the computer then look in my own (highly recognised - Al Ahzar backed) Quran and it will be completely different.

I can find scholars online that think Only a womans left eye can be exposed!

Maybe you should find a better website to base your views on Islam!

[Fuzzness 2]

without having read the entire thread, the bible is bullsh!t and its only purpose is as a tool for brainwashing

[~Jackie~ 30]

Jackie

[allousa 1]

The trick to a successful bi-national, or interfaith marriage is compromise, understanding, and core share values. You need to know expectations of this before going into the marriage.

I think you really hit the nail on the head with this statement. When my husband and I started talking about getting married, we had several weeks of "discussions" specifically about Islam and how it would affect our lives and the lives of our children. While my husband is not a practicing Muslim, and by that I mean he doesn't pray everyday as he should, he does observe Ramadan and other Islamic holidays and their practices. I definitely agree with one poster that said Islam is a way of life.

I cannot stress how very important it is to truly come to and understanding and/or an agreement when it comes to how your SO observes their religion, whether it be Islam or not. Raising children will most undoubtedly bring those beliefs to the forefront.

I myself do not observe one particular religion, but I do believe in one God. My husband has said that he would be happy for me to become a Muslim, but that it's my choice to make. We are raising our son as a Muslim, which is okay with me, but not my Southern Baptist family. BUT, it is the choice of my husband and I to make.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

without having read the entire thread, the bible is bullsh!t and its only purpose is as a tool for brainwashing

And Canadian bibles' pages are stuck together with maple syrup.

[Fuzzness 2]

without having read the entire thread, the bible is bullsh!t and its only purpose is as a tool for brainwashing

And Canadian bibles' pages are stuck together with maple syrup.

It makes it easier to spread

[mybackpages 0]

without having read the entire thread, the bible is bullsh!t and its only purpose is as a tool for brainwashing

And Canadian bibles' pages are stuck together with maple syrup.

Rich- Have you ever read Thomas Jefferson's Bible?

[doodlebug 3]

the source doesn't matter. is it, or is it not the beliefs of major scholars and imams? were those quotes in the quran or not?

and only the very first sentence i highlighted was from that website, btw!

Hello Well actually the sources does matter. As we humans, do seem to twist and turn evidence to support our view. So as I and many others here have in the past, how about taking religion from the source, not vague, bias views of not qualified posters online or some online fatwa bank. The Qur'an does not lie. And with the same thought, reading the Bible and books of the Torah... probably much smaller way to form our opinions.

And while Google is our friend, googling some key words, then reading the first few lines (online), without actually looking them up is never a good idea. And that comment was not in any directed at you, but to all of us as a reminder. I have no intention of insulting or anyone else here. Thank you for reading my post. May the God guide you in your path. amin

Exactly, Henia -- the source matters a LOT.

Jen -- if you are truly interested in finding out what the Qur'an actually says, it's readily available in English (and many other languages) -- you can find it online. I suggest that you read it for yourself before you cut and paste disembodied passages from dubious sources -- especially ones that are openly hostile to the subject matter -- because when you pick single passages out, you completely lose the context. I realize that all humans have a tendency to seek out things that tell us what we want to hear, reinforcing our own perceptions, but it's important to cross-check the info if you really want to get to the truth.

Your source quotes an "authority" who states that apostates should be killed, but then inserts a "supporting" quote from Qur'an that says nothing of the sort:

Surah 2:217

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

This passage is obviously talking about times of war, and protecting their people and their religion from attack. It doesn't say *anything* about killing apostates.

Then your source cites this as further "proof":

Surah 4:89

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;

but the passage that immediately follows is completely ignored:

Surah 4:90

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

So these passages are also talking about war -- how to treat people who invade and attack you, and how to treat those who approach you in peace.

Here is what Qur'an actually says about apostates:

Surah 4:137:

Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of the truth - God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them in any way.

*Nothing* about putting them to death -- it says God will deal with them. Now if apostates should be put to death, then why does this passage talk about someone who believes, then doesn't, then does again, then doesn't again ? If apostates are supposed to be killed, how would anyone even have the chance to vacillate back and forth ? (Seems this verse should be considered a pretty solid Qur'anic argument *against* the death penalty for apostates...)

Also please remember that not all Hadith are reliable (especially ones compiled 300 years after the Prophet's death.) And every religion has its nut cases who will twist and distort their holy books, or pick and choose certain parts to "follow" while disregarding the rest, or even add their own embellishments -- Christianity and Judaism have had (and still have) their fair share of kooks.

I am at work right now so I don't have a whole lot of time to respond to everyone and everything, but again I strongly encourage you to read for yourself what Qur'an actually says before you draw conclusions based on what a particular website tells you -- especially if it's one that picks out single passages here and there without providing any context (not to mention being openly hostile to the subject.) Caladan had a great analogy on that.

ok I think I said something similar re: war time and taking it in context but you said it a LOT better with a LOT more proof.

Jen I never meant to say anything about your marriage...I just stated that you should really talk in depth about what your children will be when you have them. I would tell that to anyone and yes maybe you already knew that but sometimes saying it again emphasizes the importance.

I have to say though I'm shocked at what you have written here. I would have thought you would have gone to a lot more authoritative sources for your information. You obviously don't have to answer this but what does your fiance have to say about the subject? Does he agree with your viewpoint?

[~Jackie~ 30]

I am amazed at the amount of women that will publically state that their husband.... 'is not a practicing muslim, he doesn't pray'.....my husband would be appalled if I spoke on a forum his religious habits or lack of. A muslim is a muslim, no matter what his physical motions are.

If a christian didn't go to church every Sunday and tithe...would you call him a non-practicing christian? I'm curious, I have never seen that. I have seen 'born again', I imagine that would be a non-practicing, starting to practice again.

Great discussion thread!

Jackie

[ya falaha! 0]

My husband knows he doesn't practice Islam the way he's supposed to. I suppose it depends on the husband whether they'd be upset or not about others knowing their "religiousness". Mine could care less either way. He's not in denial about his lack of religiousness. I shouldn't have to lie for him and make everyone believe he's devout.

I am amazed at the amount of women that will publically state that their husband.... 'is not a practicing muslim, he doesn't pray'.....my husband would be appalled if I spoke on a forum his religious habits or lack of. A muslim is a muslim, no matter what his physical motions are.

If a christian didn't go to church every Sunday and tithe...would you call him a non-practicing christian? I'm curious, I have never seen that. I have seen 'born again', I imagine that would be a non-practicing, starting to practice again.

Great discussion thread!

Jackie

[doodlebug 3]

I don't think it's that uncommon. I mean when I was Catholic and did not go to church I called myself a "non-practicing Catholic".

I think that's a little different than say my saying that although my husband prays he does this, this and that that is haram, etc.

[peezey 0]

The bible tells of this same nonsense, Gupt, but just like most Christians, most muslims are familiar with the concepts of historical context and allegory.

The bible says a thief should be sold into slavery if he cannot repay what he has stolen. Why aren't we afraid of Christianity? Because everyone knows the idea is preposterous.

In Christianity, denying Jesus is damnation and hellfire, and this is different than death?

Where in the New Testament are these quotes?

I wasn't talking about the New Testament. And I'm not devout, I'm atheist. We're allowed to say retarded in my religion.

Then how are you talking about Jesus? That's New Testament, not Old Testament. You specifically referred to denying Jesus. So you must be talking about New Testament.... And I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that Atheism is a philosophy, not a religion. But if you are saying that it's "allowed" in your "religion" then basically, you're just making excuses for being rude?

Are you being dense on purpose? My reference to Christianity was not a reference to a text, it's a reference to the general consensus among majority of Christians in the world what happens to one who doesn't accept Jesus.

[peezey 0]

I am amazed at the amount of women that will publically state that their husband.... 'is not a practicing muslim, he doesn't pray'.....my husband would be appalled if I spoke on a forum his religious habits or lack of. A muslim is a muslim, no matter what his physical motions are.

If a christian didn't go to church every Sunday and tithe...would you call him a non-practicing christian? I'm curious, I have never seen that. I have seen 'born again', I imagine that would be a non-practicing, starting to practice again.

Great discussion thread!

Jackie

I think there would be more husbands appalled that the act of prayer is being referred to as physical motions.

Maybe there is a better term for someone of ANY religion who isn't actively praying, going to church/temple/mosque, but it's pretty obvious what people mean when they say non-practicing.

With that said, who cares? It's just a description of how people are in their lives. They aren't embarrassed by it, why would it matter if their wives describe their level of involvement in their religion?

Edited July 6, 2007 by peezey