Bible-A Closer Look!

[Caladan 19]

Quoting the context is often useful, and G-EG's a scholar of this. So often discussions of Islam are about one the level a discussion of Christianity would be if I flipped open Genesis to the story of the two daughters who got their dad drunk so they could have sex with him and called that an example of Christian sexual morality.

It's not only 'quoting in support' that's allowed, it's actually understanding the context of what you're reading.

[sereia 0]

well its nice to see GEG come and post something enlightening and with knowledge instead of calling someone "retarded". as always, i appreciate your posts, GEG, and am glad to read what you had said. you have always helped me in regards to islam, and i thank you for that. but why is there so much conflicting information inside the quran? and between muslim scholars? then why do all four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) agree that an apostate must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed. an example above taken from apostacy i'm just trying to understand this concept better. as i am sure most non-muslims would like to. of course in a "free" society like the US, nothing like this would happen. but i've read about this happening in places like iran and other islamic countries. i'm in no way trying to keep arguing. i wasn't even going to post all this, but many muslims have come to this post to chime in with their remarks and i wanted to explain how i've come to understand what i said in my original reply.

Sura II.217 is interpreted by no less an authority than al-Shafiââi, the founder of one of the four orthodox schools of law of Sunni Islam to mean that the death penalty should be prescribed for apostates. Sura II.217 reads: But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever , his works shall come to nothing in this world and the next, and they are the companions of the fire for ever. Al-Thalabi and al -Khazan concur. Al-Razi in his commentary on II:217 says the apostate should be killed.

IV. 89:"They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all like alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they desert you seize them and put them to death wherever you find them. Look for neither friends nor helpers among them" Baydawi, in his celebrated commentary on the Koran, interprets this passage to mean: "Whosover turns back from his belief ( irtada ), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard"[/b]

Abul Ala Mawdudi, the founder of the Jamat-i Islami, is perhaps the most influential Muslim thinker of the 20th century, being responsible for the Islamic resurgence in modern times. He called for a return to the Koran and a purified sunna as a way to revive and revitalise Islam. In his book on apostasy in Islam, Mawdudi argued that even the Koran prescribes the death penalty for all apostates. He points to sura IX for evidence:

"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist"(IX: 11,12)

In the hadith we find many traditions demanding the death penalty for apostasy. The Prophet said, "Kill him who changes his religion,or behead him."The only argument was as to the nature of the death penalty.

following saying of the Prophet:

Ikrimah said: Ali burned some people who retreated from Islam. When Ibn Abbas was informed of it he said, "If it had been I, I would not have them burned, for the apostle on Allah said: "Do not inflict Allahs punishment on anyone. But would have killed them on account of the statement of the Apostle of Allah, Kill those who change their religion."

and moody/doodle: of course i've spoken in detail with my fiance about religion and children. thank you for the advice anyway. i know i probably offended you with my previous comments about islam. like i said above, i am trying to better understand certain aspects of your religion and also hold my own opinions. you can think what you want about why i chose to marry a muslim when i have voiced certain opinions about religion on vj... but on vj you only read a very small particle about who i am, what i believe, and what i know. as i do for you. but i in no way have judged you for your choice in husbands! those kinds of opinions i believe are better left to ourselves. who is anyone on vj to judge anyone else here about their SO choices? we all chose our SO's for our own personal reasons that no one else could possibly know.

Edited July 5, 2007 by abdounjen

[ya falaha! 0]

Jen, I'm not judging your choice in husbands at all. Also, you didn't offend me with what you say about Islam. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It just seems from your posts that you have disdain for Muslims/Islam. That is the only reason why I'm a little surprised you are marrying a Muslim. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Quoting the context is often useful, and G-EG's a scholar of this. So often discussions of Islam are about one the level a discussion of Christianity would be if I flipped open Genesis to the story of the two daughters who got their dad drunk so they could have sex with him and called that an example of Christian sexual morality.

It's not only 'quoting in support' that's allowed, it's actually understanding the context of what you're reading.

Is quoting in critique allowed?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

well its nice to see GEG come and post something enlightening and with knowledge instead of calling someone "retarded". as always, i appreciate your posts, GEG, and am glad to read what you had said. you have always helped me in regards to islam, and i thank you for that. but why is there so much conflicting information inside the quran? and between muslim scholars? then why do all four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) agree that an apostate must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed. an example above taken from apostacy i'm just trying to understand this concept better. as i am sure most non-muslims would like to. of course in a "free" society like the US, nothing like this would happen. but i've read about this happening in places like iran and other islamic countries. i'm in no way trying to keep arguing. i wasn't even going to post all this, but many muslims have come to this post to chime in with their remarks and i wanted to explain how i've come to understand what i said in my original reply.

Sura II.217 is interpreted by no less an authority than al-Shafiââi, the founder of one of the four orthodox schools of law of Sunni Islam to mean that the death penalty should be prescribed for apostates. Sura II.217 reads: But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever , his works shall come to nothing in this world and the next, and they are the companions of the fire for ever. Al-Thalabi and al -Khazan concur. Al-Razi in his commentary on II:217 says the apostate should be killed.

IV. 89:"They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all like alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they desert you seize them and put them to death wherever you find them. Look for neither friends nor helpers among them" Baydawi, in his celebrated commentary on the Koran, interprets this passage to mean: "Whosover turns back from his belief ( irtada ), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard"[/b]

Abul Ala Mawdudi, the founder of the Jamat-i Islami, is perhaps the most influential Muslim thinker of the 20th century, being responsible for the Islamic resurgence in modern times. He called for a return to the Koran and a purified sunna as a way to revive and revitalise Islam. In his book on apostasy in Islam, Mawdudi argued that even the Koran prescribes the death penalty for all apostates. He points to sura IX for evidence:

"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist"(IX: 11,12)

In the hadith we find many traditions demanding the death penalty for apostasy. The Prophet said, "Kill him who changes his religion,or behead him."The only argument was as to the nature of the death penalty.

following saying of the Prophet:

Ikrimah said: Ali burned some people who retreated from Islam. When Ibn Abbas was informed of it he said, "If it had been I, I would not have them burned, for the apostle on Allah said: "Do not inflict Allahs punishment on anyone. But would have killed them on account of the statement of the Apostle of Allah, Kill those who change their religion."

and moody/doodle: of course i've spoken in detail with my fiance about religion and children. thank you for the advice anyway. i know i probably offended you with my previous comments about islam. like i said above, i am trying to better understand certain aspects of your religion and also hold my own opinions. you can think what you want about why i chose to marry a muslim when i have voiced certain opinions about religion on vj... but on vj you only read a very small particle about who i am, what i believe, and what i know. as i do for you. but i in no way have judged you for your choice in husbands! those kinds of opinions i believe are better left to ourselves. who is anyone on vj to judge anyone else here about their SO choices? we all chose our SO's for our own personal reasons that no one else could possibly know.

Your source is "Light of Life," a website which purports to "investigate Islam from a Christian point of view." I skimmed through some of this site -- it is hardly objective. It makes a lot of claims that are entirely inaccurate. (I would cut and paste some of the more egregious examples, but the website keeps freezing up.)

http://www.light-of-life.com/

[sereia 0]

the source doesn't matter. is it, or is it not the beliefs of major scholars and imams? were those quotes in the quran or not?

and only the very first sentence i highlighted was from that website, btw!

Edited July 5, 2007 by abdounjen

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

That site seems to work fine.

[Henia 11]

My question wasn't really directed at any ONE person, but rather as a question open to everyone posting here.

My experiences with Christianity may not have been the best examples to follow. It always seemed to me that church was more of a fashion show than a place of worship. Youth group was just another place for the young men and women to "hook up". Sure we sang the songs, and said prayer, but it always felt empty and meaningless. The pastor may have well been reading out of the dictionary and not the Bible, as he did not sound convicted in his beliefs. Of course, there is always the possibility that I was not open to learning about religion as I am now.

The one thing that stands out most in my memories of going to church on a regular basis, is the teaching of, "Thou shall have no other God's before Me"

My question is, isn't God always God, no matter if you call him God or Allah?

My reply maybe coming a page too late, but Allah is the God. Allah is God in Arabic. Even Christians call God Allah. And the GOD, our Creator has more then one name. And each person, in whatever language is native to him, God is God.

Are people allowed to leave Islam?

People come and go from Islam every day. I have several beloved relatives who have left Islam and are alive and doing well decades later. While there are Muslims who believe wrongly that apostates must be killed, Allah does not advocate that. The misunderstanding primarily comes from one verse, often quoted when this subject is raised:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The mistake in this translation is that the word Islam is not translated. Islam means "submission" to the Will of God. Those who Allah judges to be submissive to His Will are bound for heaven, even of they do not convert to Islam. So, the verse reads as this:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than submission to the Will of God, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The Quran has several passages about how faith is determined, who will enter heaven, and God's intent toward us all. Here are some interesting ones that will illustrate the point.

Islam is the only one of the Abrahamic faiths that states that non-adherents will enter heaven:

2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

It also says that God alone chooses the faith of each person, and that He has purposefully made us not to believe the same:

5.48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to the e. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49.13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

I have to admit my views of Christianity may be flawed, I believe in God, but I don't really follow one religion. I know that is not a good thing. I admit that I have not read the Qur'an. However, I had read about Islam online, and I am more and more inclined to think maybe this is the religion for me. I don't see the devoutness in Christianity, the closeness with God and and the respect for your fellow man, as I do in Islam. What confuses me is all the Hadiths, I am still not sure what they are for exactly. Also, do you HAVE to speak in Arabic during prayer time?

Don't worry about ahadith now. You need to take baby steps and ahadith are part of the advanced course.

None of the prophets spoke Arabic before Muhammad, and God accepted their prayers. He understands all languages. Learn the prayers in Arabic when you can so you may pray communally, but in your own place, pray in the language you understand, for it must have meaning for you.

i'm not an easily insulted person in general...but i'm insulted when people call it "reverting". muslims may believe that all people were born muslim, but no one else does!

people are not allowed to leave islam. its punishable by death! that alone is a pretty good reason not to convert to islam. good thing these people live in america and have religious freedom! good luck trying to convert from islam to another religion if you lived in a muslim country.

happy independence day!

This is disappointing, coming from you, Jen. I was under the impression that you wanted to learn about Islam to advance your relationship with your fiance. It is not helpful to be ignorant about it and even less helpful to spread that ignorance.

Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

The schools of thought and the Sunnah of Allah are not one and the same. What the scholars of fiqh produced can be challenged and rejected, and it is. God has not mandated death for apostasy, and the fact that He repeatedly says in the Quran that He is the source of all belief and that not all will believe the same is reason enough to know that their determinations are not always correct, a fact that they admitted themselves due to their fallibility. The schools are not substitutes for one's own responsibility to know the faith for yourself.

Considering that Muslims consider everyone to have been born Muslim, there are a lot of apostates running around!

Green-eyed girl: Alhamdulillah, you have given good answers. If anyone leaves Islam, he/she must not be executed. Qur'an says, "There is no compulsion in religion." (2:256). Even during Prophet's time, there are examples that people came to Islam and left. Prophet did not execute them. Of course, religion is one's personal matter. It has to come from one's heart. Forcing faith on someone won't accomplish anything. I have studied Bible extensively myself. I like many verses from the Bible. I will just quote two. John 8:32, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall free you" and another verse from John 20:17 when Jesus said to Mary Magdalene," I am returning to my FATHER, your FATHER and my GOD, your GOD."

I know some people personally who reverted to Islam from Christianity. They told me that the divinity of Christ and contect of Trinity are the main reasons they left Christianity.

I am not here to start a debate. I treat people same regardless of their faiths. Personally, I have met very good Christians, their manners and behavior are better than some Muslims. We should all love and respect people regardless of their faiths. I like this beautiful verse from the Qur'an:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (49:13).

Right on!

[Henia 11]

Honestly, Jen, I don't believe she said it just to be "rude". It's a valid point since the majority of Muslim men fully expect that their children will be raised Muslim. Now not every Muslim is devout or religious so some may not care either way. My husband, for example, is not religious but he wants his children to be Muslim. It is probably best to discuss religion in regards to children prior to having the children. That is if you do plan to have children. It's not ignorance it's just the way things are. If you (or anyone else) is gonna marry a Muslim even a non religious one please discuss how religion will play into your lives. I must say that based on many comments that you have posted here on VJ it kinda surprises me that you would marry a Muslim man. Sure you're marrying the man not the religion but for many of these men (and women) it comes hand in hand.

yes, i know - which brings me back to my point - how is it ignorant? that was the comment made.

what i think lucky meant, (correct me if i'm wrong) is that she assumed our children would be muslim because my fiance happens to be muslim. she just said it to be rude anyway. i find that quite ignorant myself actually!

Yes, they sure do. I know many non-Muslim people who have married Muslims and basically 2 things have happened: either the non-Muslim slowly gets introduced to Islam and the Muslim culture and slowly kinda blends it in their beings (and some or dare I say many convert) but while others totally refuse to hear anything to do with Islam, soon find out that their spouses will not be deleting the Muslim culture from their being. And the marriages many times endly bitterly. Not saying the Muslim spouse pushes the issue of conversion, buuuuuuut most likely wishes the children to be instilled with the same Muslim morales and culture they were.

[chri'stina 190]

The beliefs on the characteristics of God is different in different religions, such as in Christianity when we say God, we believe in a triune God, God in three equal parts(Father, Son, Holy Spirit), so our view of God is different even if the same word is used, ie Allah, in another language. Same if you say god in Hinduism, it carries a different characteristic of who god is or isn't. So the word may be the same, but holds different meaning to different beliefs. My view of God is different than a Muslim's view of God and vice versa. The same name doesn't mean the same beliefs.

[Henia 11]

Is quoting the Qur'an only allowed to support it as opposed to critiquing it?

LOL Gupt. Allowed for both.

[chri'stina 190]

Honestly, Jen, I don't believe she said it just to be "rude". It's a valid point since the majority of Muslim men fully expect that their children will be raised Muslim. Now not every Muslim is devout or religious so some may not care either way. My husband, for example, is not religious but he wants his children to be Muslim. It is probably best to discuss religion in regards to children prior to having the children. That is if you do plan to have children. It's not ignorance it's just the way things are. If you (or anyone else) is gonna marry a Muslim even a non religious one please discuss how religion will play into your lives. I must say that based on many comments that you have posted here on VJ it kinda surprises me that you would marry a Muslim man. Sure you're marrying the man not the religion but for many of these men (and women) it comes hand in hand.

yes, i know - which brings me back to my point - how is it ignorant? that was the comment made.

what i think lucky meant, (correct me if i'm wrong) is that she assumed our children would be muslim because my fiance happens to be muslim. she just said it to be rude anyway. i find that quite ignorant myself actually!

Yes, they sure do. I know many non-Muslim people who have married Muslims and basically 2 things have happened: either the non-Muslim slowly gets introduced to Islam and the Muslim culture and slowly kinda blends it in their beings (and some or dare I say many convert) but while others totally refuse to hear anything to do with Islam, soon find out that their spouses will not be deleting the Muslim culture from their being. And the marriages many times endly bitterly. Not saying the Muslim spouse pushes the issue of conversion, buuuuuuut most likely wishes the children to be instilled with the same Muslim morales and culture they were.

One thing more is that instead maybe the Muslim spouse could end up changing their beliefs to their SO's? I am one for marrying someone of the same religion because that has always been very important to me, but what if in a Christian/Muslim marriage, the Christian does not want to let go of their culture or beliefs either, why does only the non-Muslim have to conform (in the example you showed above)? I think you can have the culture of someone without having their religion, such as me partaking in Indian culture without partaking in any Hinduism.

[Henia 11]

the source doesn't matter. is it, or is it not the beliefs of major scholars and imams? were those quotes in the quran or not?

and only the very first sentence i highlighted was from that website, btw!

Hello Well actually the sources does matter. As we humans, do seem to twist and turn evidence to support our view. So as I and many others here have in the past, how about taking religion from the source, not vague, bias views of not qualified posters online or some online fatwa bank. The Qur'an does not lie. And with the same thought, reading the Bible and books of the Torah... probably much smaller way to form our opinions.

And while Google is our friend, googling some key words, then reading the first few lines (online), without actually looking them up is never a good idea. And that comment was not in any directed at you, but to all of us as a reminder. I have no intention of insulting or anyone else here. Thank you for reading my post. May the God guide you in your path. amin

[sereia 0]

Honestly, Jen, I don't believe she said it just to be "rude". It's a valid point since the majority of Muslim men fully expect that their children will be raised Muslim. Now not every Muslim is devout or religious so some may not care either way. My husband, for example, is not religious but he wants his children to be Muslim. It is probably best to discuss religion in regards to children prior to having the children. That is if you do plan to have children. It's not ignorance it's just the way things are. If you (or anyone else) is gonna marry a Muslim even a non religious one please discuss how religion will play into your lives. I must say that based on many comments that you have posted here on VJ it kinda surprises me that you would marry a Muslim man. Sure you're marrying the man not the religion but for many of these men (and women) it comes hand in hand.

yes, i know - which brings me back to my point - how is it ignorant? that was the comment made.

what i think lucky meant, (correct me if i'm wrong) is that she assumed our children would be muslim because my fiance happens to be muslim. she just said it to be rude anyway. i find that quite ignorant myself actually!

Yes, they sure do. I know many non-Muslim people who have married Muslims and basically 2 things have happened: either the non-Muslim slowly gets introduced to Islam and the Muslim culture and slowly kinda blends it in their beings (and some or dare I say many convert) but while others totally refuse to hear anything to do with Islam, soon find out that their spouses will not be deleting the Muslim culture from their being. And the marriages many times endly bitterly. Not saying the Muslim spouse pushes the issue of conversion, buuuuuuut most likely wishes the children to be instilled with the same Muslim morales and culture they were.

i have also personally known happily married interfaith couples (30+ years) who neither converted to either religion. i don't believe there is any reason to delete your own culture because you intertwine your life with another. you can share them an embrace the similarities AND differences together. i'm sure there are also plenty of couples who end up like you described. there really is no black and white in regards to this. any marriage can be blissful or fail! of course having interfaith marriages could possibly put more of a strain on it than others, but it is still possible to have a happy and healthy marriage.

and regards to the source of my quote... the FIRST SENTENCES in my very first paragraph were the only part from that source. again, i ask: does it mean that the imams and scholars don't believe that just because it was on that particular website? i agree that we shouldn't just google and use the first text that comes to the top when quoting something. i did not do that, but just used that particular sentence to be quoted from that website. the quotes from the quran are not. i read websites from pro and anti whatever to get a better view of what i'm reading.

[mybackpages 0]

i have also personally known happily married interfaith couples (30+ years) who neither converted to either religion. i don't believe there is any reason to delete your own culture because you intertwine your life with another. you can share them an embrace the similarities AND differences together. i'm sure there are also plenty of couples who end up like you described. there really is no black and white in regards to this. any marriage can be blissful or fail! of course having interfaith marriages could possibly put more of a strain on it than others, but it is still possible to have a happy and healthy marriage.

I know that these couples do exist and it is a real possibiity for many couples. Success interfaith marriages are successful because both entered into the relationship with basic core values and understandings of their own identiy. I know couples liek this, but I also know the interfaith couples where the woman gives up her own identiy to conform to the man. (lots of csame faith , same nationalties couples also experience this).

I think the biggest difference about marrying into the Muslim culture is that Islam is not just a religion, but a way of life. It has much more in common with Judaism than Christianity in this regard. Both husband and wife need to understand this and to what extent it will play a role in their lives- esp when children come along.

I've seen way to many American women jump into a relationship with a Muslim man who never bothered to look beyond the honeymoon phase and came into the relationship without a clear understanding of their husband's culture. Conflicts are normal in a bi-national marriage...i like to call them road bumps- things that disrupt the smooth road of marriage. The trick to a successful bi-national, or interfaith marriage is compromise, understanding, and core share values. You need to know expectations of this before going into the marriage.