Bible-A Closer Look!

[Henia 11]

My Catholic cousin married a Jewish boy. Both religions call for matrilineal inheritance of the religion. They do what any other couple does. One of the religions gets ignored. There are no squads of priests that will forcibly baptize my cousin's baby should she choose not to, and there are no squads of rabbis performing rogue circumcisions.

So if a Catholic, say, married a Muslim, I guess the couple'd have to make that decision on their own. No biggie in a free country. Probably a big deal in a non-free country, but for reasons not really having to do with religion.

I was told that I could not get married to a muslim in the Catholic church, when I was Catholic.

I am confirm this. Years back when I was going marry my first husband, my parents wanted a church wedding so to satisfy them we let them ask. Needless to say, it never happened.

[doodlebug 3]

My Catholic cousin married a Jewish boy. Both religions call for matrilineal inheritance of the religion. They do what any other couple does. One of the religions gets ignored. There are no squads of priests that will forcibly baptize my cousin's baby should she choose not to, and there are no squads of rabbis performing rogue circumcisions.

So if a Catholic, say, married a Muslim, I guess the couple'd have to make that decision on their own. No biggie in a free country. Probably a big deal in a non-free country, but for reasons not really having to do with religion.

I was told that I could not get married to a muslim in the Catholic church, when I was Catholic.

I am confirm this. Years back when I was going marry my first husband, my parents wanted a church wedding so to satisfy them we let them ask. Needless to say, it never happened.

Yup. It's not just Catholics marrying nonCatholics it is specifically Muslims that my priest had the problem with. It was a mute point since I wasn't about to get my first marriage annulled anyways but I had to ask out of curiosity.

Edited July 5, 2007 by doodlebug

[Henia 11]

My parents parish will not even marry non-Catholics. They must attend some classes, "convert", be rebapitzed I guess then join the parish, and attend for a while before the priest would even consider it. Weird huh? Back in the pre-60s... before they did a rehaul of the Church.

[monnik 0]

Monik and Doodle: It was copy-paste article written by a Christian preacher Bapitst I think. Or maybe it was Mormon not sure. Basically trying to show how Muslims are similar to Christians and we all should convert. The article had nothing to do with the title. Was not a closer look at the Bible, but invitation for MENA members to convert to Christianity or start a flaming war.

Thanks for clearing it up. Sounds like I didn't miss much.

[Henia 11]

Monik and Doodle: It was copy-paste article written by a Christian preacher Bapitst I think. Or maybe it was Mormon not sure. Basically trying to show how Muslims are similar to Christians and we all should convert. The article had nothing to do with the title. Was not a closer look at the Bible, but invitation for MENA members to convert to Christianity or start a flaming war.

Thanks for clearing it up. Sounds like I didn't miss much.

Sure didn't.

[jundp 191]

The bible tells of this same nonsense, Gupt, but just like most Christians, most muslims are familiar with the concepts of historical context and allegory.

The bible says a thief should be sold into slavery if he cannot repay what he has stolen. Why aren't we afraid of Christianity? Because everyone knows the idea is preposterous.

In Christianity, denying Jesus is damnation and hellfire, and this is different than death?

Where in the New Testament are these quotes?

I wasn't talking about the New Testament. And I'm not devout, I'm atheist. We're allowed to say retarded in my religion.

Then how are you talking about Jesus? That's New Testament, not Old Testament. You specifically referred to denying Jesus. So you must be talking about New Testament.... And I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that Atheism is a philosophy, not a religion. But if you are saying that it's "allowed" in your "religion" then basically, you're just making excuses for being rude?

No, sweet Jen, I only look for ignorant, retarded, misinformed, ill-conceived posts to respond to. It really isn't my fault that they often end up being yours.

It seems like someone who professes to be faithful and devout shouldn't be going around calling other people (or their words) "retarded," as that smacks of intolerance and judgment. Or is it ok to be judgmental and intolerant?

She doesn't profess to be faithful and devout. In fact I think she's professed to be agnostic if not atheistic in the past.

Oh, well, then in that case, how about human decency?

Right, because Jen was oh-so-polite to me when she accused me of coming to the thread to attack her. Human decency, my azz. It was uber decent of her to mis-represent Islam with the apostate murder thing, I suppose?

Yes, I went back and read that, but I don't think she was coming after you. That's just the way I viewed it. I suppose it could be seen as me coming after you now.. I don't know about her mis-representing Islam, as I am currently learning about Islam. However, I don't truly see how being rude does anything but cause more rudeness....

That's what Jim Jones said.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (sorry, not directed at Islam, just found that really funny....)

My parents parish will not even marry non-Catholics. They must attend some classes, "convert", be rebapitzed I guess then join the parish, and attend for a while before the priest would even consider it. Weird huh? Back in the pre-60s... before they did a rehaul of the Church.

Yeah, I think it does depend on the diocese. There is definitely extra paperwork involved. My fiance and I didn't even seriously consider getting married in the church, because he's not Catholic and we couldn't do the premarriage counseling (I think that's the classes that Henia is talking about). He wouldn't have been required to convert though. I don't know if this is a parish to parish thing or not. We could theoretically have the marriage blessed afterwards though by my parish priest.

In the long run of course, it only matters if it matters to the couple, I guess.

[Henia 11]

In the long run of course, it only matters if it matters to the couple, I guess.

Basically a Yeeep to everything addressed in this thread so far.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Are people allowed to leave Islam?

People come and go from Islam every day. I have several beloved relatives who have left Islam and are alive and doing well decades later. While there are Muslims who believe wrongly that apostates must be killed, Allah does not advocate that. The misunderstanding primarily comes from one verse, often quoted when this subject is raised:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The mistake in this translation is that the word Islam is not translated. Islam means "submission" to the Will of God. Those who Allah judges to be submissive to His Will are bound for heaven, even of they do not convert to Islam. So, the verse reads as this:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than submission to the Will of God, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The Quran has several passages about how faith is determined, who will enter heaven, and God's intent toward us all. Here are some interesting ones that will illustrate the point.

Islam is the only one of the Abrahamic faiths that states that non-adherents will enter heaven:

2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

It also says that God alone chooses the faith of each person, and that He has purposefully made us not to believe the same:

5.48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to the e. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49.13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

I have to admit my views of Christianity may be flawed, I believe in God, but I don't really follow one religion. I know that is not a good thing. I admit that I have not read the Qur'an. However, I had read about Islam online, and I am more and more inclined to think maybe this is the religion for me. I don't see the devoutness in Christianity, the closeness with God and and the respect for your fellow man, as I do in Islam. What confuses me is all the Hadiths, I am still not sure what they are for exactly. Also, do you HAVE to speak in Arabic during prayer time?

Don't worry about ahadith now. You need to take baby steps and ahadith are part of the advanced course.

None of the prophets spoke Arabic before Muhammad, and God accepted their prayers. He understands all languages. Learn the prayers in Arabic when you can so you may pray communally, but in your own place, pray in the language you understand, for it must have meaning for you.

i'm not an easily insulted person in general...but i'm insulted when people call it "reverting". muslims may believe that all people were born muslim, but no one else does!

people are not allowed to leave islam. its punishable by death! that alone is a pretty good reason not to convert to islam. good thing these people live in america and have religious freedom! good luck trying to convert from islam to another religion if you lived in a muslim country.

happy independence day!

This is disappointing, coming from you, Jen. I was under the impression that you wanted to learn about Islam to advance your relationship with your fiance. It is not helpful to be ignorant about it and even less helpful to spread that ignorance.

Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

The schools of thought and the Sunnah of Allah are not one and the same. What the scholars of fiqh produced can be challenged and rejected, and it is. God has not mandated death for apostasy, and the fact that He repeatedly says in the Quran that He is the source of all belief and that not all will believe the same is reason enough to know that their determinations are not always correct, a fact that they admitted themselves due to their fallibility. The schools are not substitutes for one's own responsibility to know the faith for yourself.

Considering that Muslims consider everyone to have been born Muslim, there are a lot of apostates running around!

Edited July 5, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Sofiyya 1,687]

PS- Islam does not teach that faith is passed thru the father to the children. That concept derives from pre-Islamic Arab cultural norms that hold that women and children take their status from the family's dominant male. In Islam, each person is judged by their own acts and beliefs and no one can bear the blame for or take credit for the acts and beliefs of others.

[aya*abouelnasr 0]

My question wasn't really directed at any ONE person, but rather as a question open to everyone posting here.

My experiences with Christianity may not have been the best examples to follow. It always seemed to me that church was more of a fashion show than a place of worship. Youth group was just another place for the young men and women to "hook up". Sure we sang the songs, and said prayer, but it always felt empty and meaningless. The pastor may have well been reading out of the dictionary and not the Bible, as he did not sound convicted in his beliefs. Of course, there is always the possibility that I was not open to learning about religion as I am now.

The one thing that stands out most in my memories of going to church on a regular basis, is the teaching of, "Thou shall have no other God's before Me"

My question is, isn't God always God, no matter if you call him God or Allah?

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

Nothing going on in politics so we sling some mud around religion again, eh? Sweet.

Newsflash: They arrested Al Gore's son speeding down the highway in his drug loaded Prius. Any takers?

already done

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...p;#entry1027821

and pass the popcorn

[simple_male 1]

Are people allowed to leave Islam?

People come and go from Islam every day. I have several beloved relatives who have left Islam and are alive and doing well decades later. While there are Muslims who believe wrongly that apostates must be killed, Allah does not advocate that. The misunderstanding primarily comes from one verse, often quoted when this subject is raised:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The mistake in this translation is that the word Islam is not translated. Islam means "submission" to the Will of God. Those who Allah judges to be submissive to His Will are bound for heaven, even of they do not convert to Islam. So, the verse reads as this:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than submission to the Will of God, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The Quran has several passages about how faith is determined, who will enter heaven, and God's intent toward us all. Here are some interesting ones that will illustrate the point.

Islam is the only one of the Abrahamic faiths that states that non-adherents will enter heaven:

2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

It also says that God alone chooses the faith of each person, and that He has purposefully made us not to believe the same:

5.48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to the e. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49.13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

I have to admit my views of Christianity may be flawed, I believe in God, but I don't really follow one religion. I know that is not a good thing. I admit that I have not read the Qur'an. However, I had read about Islam online, and I am more and more inclined to think maybe this is the religion for me. I don't see the devoutness in Christianity, the closeness with God and and the respect for your fellow man, as I do in Islam. What confuses me is all the Hadiths, I am still not sure what they are for exactly. Also, do you HAVE to speak in Arabic during prayer time?

Don't worry about ahadith now. You need to take baby steps and ahadith are part of the advanced course.

None of the prophets spoke Arabic before Muhammad, and God accepted their prayers. He understands all languages. Learn the prayers in Arabic when you can so you may pray communally, but in your own place, pray in the language you understand, for it must have meaning for you.

i'm not an easily insulted person in general...but i'm insulted when people call it "reverting". muslims may believe that all people were born muslim, but no one else does!

people are not allowed to leave islam. its punishable by death! that alone is a pretty good reason not to convert to islam. good thing these people live in america and have religious freedom! good luck trying to convert from islam to another religion if you lived in a muslim country.

happy independence day!

This is disappointing, coming from you, Jen. I was under the impression that you wanted to learn about Islam to advance your relationship with your fiance. It is not helpful to be ignorant about it and even less helpful to spread that ignorance.

Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

The schools of thought and the Sunnah of Allah are not one and the same. What the scholars of fiqh produced can be challenged and rejected, and it is. God has not mandated death for apostasy, and the fact that He repeatedly says in the Quran that He is the source of all belief and that not all will believe the same is reason enough to know that their determinations are not always correct, a fact that they admitted themselves due to their fallibility. The schools are not substitutes for one's own responsibility to know the faith for yourself.

Considering that Muslims consider everyone to have been born Muslim, there are a lot of apostates running around!

Green-eyed girl: Alhamdulillah, you have given good answers. If anyone leaves Islam, he/she must not be executed. Qur'an says, "There is no compulsion in religion." (2:256). Even during Prophet's time, there are examples that people came to Islam and left. Prophet did not execute them. Of course, religion is one's personal matter. It has to come from one's heart. Forcing faith on someone won't accomplish anything. I have studied Bible extensively myself. I like many verses from the Bible. I will just quote two. John 8:32, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall free you" and another verse from John 20:17 when Jesus said to Mary Magdalene," I am returning to my FATHER, your FATHER and my GOD, your GOD."

I know some people personally who reverted to Islam from Christianity. They told me that the divinity of Christ and contect of Trinity are the main reasons they left Christianity.

I am not here to start a debate. I treat people same regardless of their faiths. Personally, I have met very good Christians, their manners and behavior are better than some Muslims. We should all love and respect people regardless of their faiths. I like this beautiful verse from the Qur'an:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (49:13).

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thank you, brother. It's good to know that the Middle Way is understood and followed by a fellow traveler. It is also sobering to know that it is lost to so many others. I also learned the Bible and find much beauty in it, as I do the Quran. I do what I can to share their beauty with others, but there is so much more to be done!

[ya falaha! 0]

Honestly, Jen, I don't believe she said it just to be "rude". It's a valid point since the majority of Muslim men fully expect that their children will be raised Muslim. Now not every Muslim is devout or religious so some may not care either way. My husband, for example, is not religious but he wants his children to be Muslim. It is probably best to discuss religion in regards to children prior to having the children. That is if you do plan to have children. It's not ignorance it's just the way things are. If you (or anyone else) is gonna marry a Muslim even a non religious one please discuss how religion will play into your lives. I must say that based on many comments that you have posted here on VJ it kinda surprises me that you would marry a Muslim man. Sure you're marrying the man not the religion but for many of these men (and women) it comes hand in hand.

yes, i know - which brings me back to my point - how is it ignorant? that was the comment made.

what i think lucky meant, (correct me if i'm wrong) is that she assumed our children would be muslim because my fiance happens to be muslim. she just said it to be rude anyway. i find that quite ignorant myself actually!

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Are people allowed to leave Islam?

People come and go from Islam every day. I have several beloved relatives who have left Islam and are alive and doing well decades later. While there are Muslims who believe wrongly that apostates must be killed, Allah does not advocate that. The misunderstanding primarily comes from one verse, often quoted when this subject is raised:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The mistake in this translation is that the word Islam is not translated. Islam means "submission" to the Will of God. Those who Allah judges to be submissive to His Will are bound for heaven, even of they do not convert to Islam. So, the verse reads as this:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than submission to the Will of God, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks ofthose who have lost (All spiritual good).

The Quran has several passages about how faith is determined, who will enter heaven, and God's intent toward us all. Here are some interesting ones that will illustrate the point.

Islam is the only one of the Abrahamic faiths that states that non-adherents will enter heaven:

2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22.17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is witness of all things.

It also says that God alone chooses the faith of each person, and that He has purposefully made us not to believe the same:

5.48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to the e. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49.13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Is quoting the Qur'an only allowed to support it as opposed to critiquing it?