'I love those barrettes in your hair.. she looks like she's 19 years old.. with her legs crossed.'

[moxy 1,051]

55 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

We need more parties instead of trying to rely on two to cater to everyone's political leanings.  Any other voting system would be gamed.

I'd love to see more parties, but the way our electoral system was setup, whether purposely or that they just didn't anticipate it, makes even a third party almost impossible. The electoral college makes a two party system inevitable.

[moxy 1,051]

47 minutes ago, LIBrty4all said:

On this, we can agree.  I, too, fall left of center, but IMO I think the majority of America falls within 10% of center, maybe even less.  It's the fringe on both sides that is so disgusting, and the 10-80% people that seem to have the most power (no science here, just my opinion). 

Unfortunately it's the fringe that's become mainstream in the modern Republican party, and it only took one election cycle.

 

Quote

I love how people try to smear Trump with the alleged cases of sexual misconduct.  Remember Stormy Daniels?  She lost, and had to pay Trump.  Yet my liberal friends love to bring her up.  Or the story about a hooker in a hotel room and some yellow water.  Did it happen?  IDK. But if it was between consenting adults, who cares?  It only upsets me when 1) The girls are underage, or 2) It's not consensual.  And there are many, MANY videos available online showing Biden doing non-consensual touching that makes the girls uncomfortable, yet no one seems to care.  If it were MY daughter, he would be on the floor regardless of his status at the time.  His current sub-par mental status aside, he has been doing it for years, and I find it disturbing at best.

Stormy Daniels sued Trump to get out of the non-disclosure agreement. So yeah, anyone painting her as a victim of sexual assault got it very wrong. On the other hand, the party of conservative values was completely unconcerned that Trump cheated on his wife and then paid Daniels off. (and when I say the Republican party has gotten much worse than their counterparts, this is just one example. Even 8 years ago, a Republican candidate who cheated on his wife and then payed her off would have never been nominated by the GOP. Not to mention a candidate who was caught on an open mic saying "grab her by the..." or who mocked a war hero. Or... on and on. Dems might be a very flawed party, but Republicans have completely lost their way.)

 

The story about Trump paying to have Russian prostitutes urinate on him (or the bed, or whatever) never quite had the ring of truth to me. But people love sensational trash. And yes, if it was consenting adults, then who cares right? (housekeeping might care a bit. Oh, and his wife.) Although perhaps the party of conservative values should have cared enough to at least look into it.

 

Yes, Biden's proclivity towards touching is weird. I don't believe there's anything sexual or deviant about it, but who knows. Old white men do weird stuff. But the same pearl-clutchers who see this as pedophilia certainly don't think Trump's relationship with Epstein was problematic. And I know this could be construed as what-aboutism, but my point here is that the inconsistency is problematic. If pedophilia is problematic for your party values, then it should be problematic across the board, Republican or Democrat.

 

The silliness about his mental status is complete FUD, born out of the extreme right's desire to mock his stutter, but know it's not politically expedient to actually mock his stutter. The same people calling Biden's mental health into question are the same people who say Trump won the election, and who are fomenting Qanon conspiracy theories and pushing for an August coup. You don't want to be in that company.

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

8 minutes ago, moxy said:

Unfortunately it's the fringe that's become mainstream in the modern Republican party, and it only took one election cycle.

Unfortunately it's the fringe that's become mainstream in BOTH parties.

 

Doesn't matter how long it has taken, that is where we are today.  Really makes me ashamed. 

[moxy 1,051]

Just now, LIBrty4all said:

Unfortunately it's the fringe that's become mainstream in BOTH parties.

 

Doesn't matter how long it has taken, that is where we are today.  Really makes me ashamed. 

Here's a good litmus test to see how far each party has swung:

 

Last four Democratic Presidents: Obama, Clinton, Carter, Johnson. Of these, which of them would still win a Democratic Party nomination today? I would argue all of them.

 

Last four Republican Presidents: Trump, Bush Jr, Bush, Reagan. Of these, which of them would still win a Republican Party nomination today? I would argue only Trump.

 

Yes, both parties change. Over time they move a little further one way or the other. But they never abandon their core values. Those values may become a little more or less nuanced, but they don't change in huge, tectonic ways. As one example, historically if a Republican were to ever mock anyone's military service, their career is over. That is a standing-next-to-your-crying-wife-and-kids-in-front-of-the-press moment. But that very core value is out the window now. Trump did it. Cruz did it. And not only did the GOP and their base not care, but they actively defended them. And now a retired Army General and ex-Trump staffer has even given vocal support to dragging our military into a Myanmar-style coup.

 

Both parties suck, and I agree with you that we should all be ashamed that we are complicit in how bad these parties are. But at the moment, only one of them is an existential threat to the future of this democracy. (and as much as I disliked Bush Jr, I would have never said that about even him)

[moxy 1,051]

3 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Democratic lawmakers who called for Cuomo's resignation now praise him at pressers

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democrats-andrew-cuomo-resignation

Idiots.

[LIBrty4all 3,754]

10 hours ago, moxy said:

Yes, both parties change. Over time they move a little further one way or the other. But they never abandon their core values. Those values may become a little more or less nuanced, but they don't change in huge, tectonic ways. As one example, historically if a Republican were to ever mock anyone's military service, their career is over. That is a standing-next-to-your-crying-wife-and-kids-in-front-of-the-press moment. But that very core value is out the window now. Trump did it. 

 

Both parties suck, and I agree with you that we should all be ashamed that we are complicit in how bad these parties are. But at the moment, only one of them is an existential threat to the future of this democracy. (and as much as I disliked Bush Jr, I would have never said that about even him)

False statement.  Debunked several times.

But you have to look no further back than a few days to see where a sitting VP tells folks to "enjoy a nice long weekend".  (Not that it really matters, as she is nearly as clueless as AOC when it comes to most things.)

[moxy 1,051]

8 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

False statement.  Debunked several times.

• "He’s not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.: - Trump, on John McCain being captured and tortured by the North Vietnamese for 5 1/2 years
• "You know who he is? He's a failed general. He was the general fighting ISIS. I would say he hasn't done so wll, right?" - Trump on four-star General John Allen
• Instead of honoring Captain Humayun Khan, an American soldier killed in Iraq, he attacked Khan's parents
• Forgot the name of Sgt. La David Johnson, who was killed in Niger, when he was on the phone speaking with Johnson's parents, and then told his parents "he knew what he signed up for."
• Asked about his thoughts on Admiral William McRaven, a former Navy SEAL who helped coordinate the mission that killed Osama Bin Laden: "Excuse me. Hillary Clinton fan."
• Required the USS John McCain (named after Senator McCain's father) to cover its name while he was visiting Japan. Many sailors who wanted to attend that speech were turned away because their uniforms bore the "USS John McCain" designation

I'm a veteran, and many here are veterans. If these remarks don't completely disgust you, then it just reinforces what I've been saying: Republicans have kicked many of their core values to the wayside.

 

Quote

But you have to look no further back than a few days to see where a sitting VP tells folks to "enjoy a nice long weekend".  (Not that it really matters, as she is nearly as clueless as AOC when it comes to most things.)

 

I agree that it was a tone deaf tweet. But were you similarly outraged when, on Memorial Day 2015, Trump tweeted "happy Memorial Day to all the haters and losers"? Or in 2018 when, on foreign soil, he said "Why should I go to that cemetery? It's filled with losers."? Why must Kamala Harris toe a line that you don't expect toed by your guy?

[Dashinka 24,731]

21 hours ago, moxy said:

Here's a good litmus test to see how far each party has swung:

 

Last four Democratic Presidents: Obama, Clinton, Carter, Johnson. Of these, which of them would still win a Democratic Party nomination today? I would argue all of them.

 

Last four Republican Presidents: Trump, Bush Jr, Bush, Reagan. Of these, which of them would still win a Republican Party nomination today? I would argue only Trump.

 

Yes, both parties change. Over time they move a little further one way or the other. But they never abandon their core values. Those values may become a little more or less nuanced, but they don't change in huge, tectonic ways. As one example, historically if a Republican were to ever mock anyone's military service, their career is over. That is a standing-next-to-your-crying-wife-and-kids-in-front-of-the-press moment. But that very core value is out the window now. Trump did it. Cruz did it. And not only did the GOP and their base not care, but they actively defended them. And now a retired Army General and ex-Trump staffer has even given vocal support to dragging our military into a Myanmar-style coup.

 

Both parties suck, and I agree with you that we should all be ashamed that we are complicit in how bad these parties are. But at the moment, only one of them is an existential threat to the future of this democracy. (and as much as I disliked Bush Jr, I would have never said that about even him)

You do realize the reason Trump won is that the GOP base is sick of the DC insiders controlling everything.  You could say this was also the case with Reagan.  That being said, I am not sure any of the Democrats you listed would win a primary today.  That Party has shifted way Left even from Obama and Johnson.

 

I do agree though that parties only change slightly over time.  The Dems are still close to their roots from the segregated South.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Dashinka

[moxy 1,051]

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

You do realize the reason Trump won is that the GOP base is sick of the DC insiders controlling everything.  You could say this was also the case with Reagan.  That being said, I am not sure any of the Democrats you listed would win a primary today.  That Party has shifted way Left even from Obama and Johnson.

I do realize that.

 

But I don't think you've got a good grasp on how far the GOP has shifted in the last 5'ish years. I saw a poll a few weeks ago, and I wish I could find the link but I searched and couldn't find it so you'll have to take my word on it (or not). The poll showed exactly what I posted. The question posed was "would you vote for him in a primary," Republicans being asked about Republican Presidents, and Dems being asked about Dems. Bush Sr. scored lowest among Republican voters (30%'ish), but Bush Jr. wasn't far behind (40%'ish). Reagan performed best, but still low 60s. But for Democrats, Obama performed the highest (like, in the 90% range), Carter also did very well (80%'ish), Clinton was low 70s, and even Johnson scored somewhere in the 60s. Again, sorry I can't find the data to back it up. But as someone who leans left on the spectrum I can tell you that this is about what I would expect. (disappoints me that Clinton was so high, but there ya go)

 

I think there is a perception that the Dems have swung hard left because of the high profiles of the party's most left-leaning members. But say what you want about Joe Biden, the dude is about as centrist as a Democrat has ever been.

[Dashinka 24,731]

5 minutes ago, moxy said:

I do realize that.

 

But I don't think you've got a good grasp on how far the GOP has shifted in the last 5'ish years. I saw a poll a few weeks ago, and I wish I could find the link but I searched and couldn't find it so you'll have to take my word on it (or not). The poll showed exactly what I posted. The question posed was "would you vote for him in a primary," Republicans being asked about Republican Presidents, and Dems being asked about Dems. Bush Sr. scored lowest among Republican voters (30%'ish), but Bush Jr. wasn't far behind (40%'ish). Reagan performed best, but still low 60s. But for Democrats, Obama performed the highest (like, in the 90% range), Carter also did very well (80%'ish), Clinton was low 70s, and even Johnson scored somewhere in the 60s. Again, sorry I can't find the data to back it up. But as someone who leans left on the spectrum I can tell you that this is about what I would expect. (disappoints me that Clinton was so high, but there ya go)

 

I think there is a perception that the Dems have swung hard left because of the high profiles of the party's most left-leaning members. But say what you want about Joe Biden, the dude is about as centrist as a Democrat has ever been.

A centrist is proposing a $6 trillion budget full of social mandatory spending?  Trump was more of a centrist than Biden.  That being said, I see Biden is abandoning the corporate tax hike, so maybe there is hope, but I doubt it.

[moxy 1,051]

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

A centrist is proposing a $6 trillion budget full of social mandatory spending?  Trump was more of a centrist than Biden.  That being said, I see Biden is abandoning the corporate tax hike, so maybe there is hope, but I doubt it.

He is, and it makes a lot of sense. This country's infrastructure is (and has been) WAY over-extended for decades. For decades we've been giving tax cuts to the wealthy, and giving carte blanche to military spending. Something has got to give.

 

Imagine if you never maintained your house in, say, 20 years of ownership. An engineer tells you that your foundation needs critical repairs or the entire thing is going to collapse. Maxing out your credit cards sounds like a bad idea, but you have to do it because you didn't take care of your house and now you are faced with either doing it or being homeless. This is where we are. (admittedly a poor analogy with "being homeless" but hopefully you get the analogy)

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

3 hours ago, moxy said:

• "He’s not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.: - Trump, on John McCain being captured and tortured by the North Vietnamese for 5 1/2 years
• "You know who he is? He's a failed general. He was the general fighting ISIS. I would say he hasn't done so wll, right?" - Trump on four-star General John Allen
• Instead of honoring Captain Humayun Khan, an American soldier killed in Iraq, he attacked Khan's parents
• Forgot the name of Sgt. La David Johnson, who was killed in Niger, when he was on the phone speaking with Johnson's parents, and then told his parents "he knew what he signed up for."
• Asked about his thoughts on Admiral William McRaven, a former Navy SEAL who helped coordinate the mission that killed Osama Bin Laden: "Excuse me. Hillary Clinton fan."
• Required the USS John McCain (named after Senator McCain's father) to cover its name while he was visiting Japan. Many sailors who wanted to attend that speech were turned away because their uniforms bore the "USS John McCain" designation

I'm a veteran, and many here are veterans. If these remarks don't completely disgust you, then it just reinforces what I've been saying: Republicans have kicked many of their core values to the wayside.

 

 

I agree that it was a tone deaf tweet. But were you similarly outraged when, on Memorial Day 2015, Trump tweeted "happy Memorial Day to all the haters and losers"? Or in 2018 when, on foreign soil, he said "Why should I go to that cemetery? It's filled with losers."? Why must Kamala Harris toe a line that you don't expect toed by your guy?

1. Trump said this before he was President only after McCain came after him first. 
2. I will research this one. 
3. How was he supposed to honor him at all when he died before Trump took office? The father came out during the campaign talking about Trump and using his Gold Star status as some bs shield from criticism. 
4. I have heard that this was debunked but I will look into it. 
5. Why, he can't criticize someone that comes after him just because he is a veteran? 
6. He never required this at all in fact. Some lower level staffers did this not Trump. 
   
   As to your Memorial Day claims he never ever said those things at all. 

[Dashinka 24,731]

1 hour ago, moxy said:

He is, and it makes a lot of sense. This country's infrastructure is (and has been) WAY over-extended for decades. For decades we've been giving tax cuts to the wealthy, and giving carte blanche to military spending. Something has got to give.

 

Imagine if you never maintained your house in, say, 20 years of ownership. An engineer tells you that your foundation needs critical repairs or the entire thing is going to collapse. Maxing out your credit cards sounds like a bad idea, but you have to do it because you didn't take care of your house and now you are faced with either doing it or being homeless. This is where we are. (admittedly a poor analogy with "being homeless" but hopefully you get the analogy)

When does Joe Biden actually ever make any sense?  Infrastructure, just like immigration (and many other things)  is simply another political football the Parties pass back and forth and blame each other for doing nothing about.  The lawmakers only use these items as campaign topics to get people to re-elect them.  We have a governor here in MI that campaigned on "Fix the darned roads", nothing really happened, no compromise or even working with the legislature, just a lot of continuing bloviating at least until the Vid came around.  Now of course we are getting the expected re-definition of the word "infrastructure" so low and behold we need more taxes (from everyone, if you believe just taxing the rich more will do it, or corporate taxes do not impact almost everyone I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you) to fund these new definitions.  We definitely do not need to increase the dependence of the federal government, maybe we could simply cut a bunch of unnecessary departments and use that money.

[moxy 1,051]

1 hour ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

1. Trump said this before he was President only after McCain came after him first. 
2. I will research this one. 
3. How was he supposed to honor him at all when he died before Trump took office? The father came out during the campaign talking about Trump and using his Gold Star status as some bs shield from criticism. 
4. I have heard that this was debunked but I will look into it. 
5. Why, he can't criticize someone that comes after him just because he is a veteran? 
6. He never required this at all in fact. Some lower level staffers did this not Trump. 
   
    

It's interesting that Dems never get a pass when they say something before they held office. And once he became President, do you believe he stopped believing what he said about John McCain?

 

It's also interesting that Dems never get a pass for what their staffers do in their stead. Trump never walked back the USS John McCain debacle, never apologized, never fired a staffer over it.

[moxy 1,051]

4 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

When does Joe Biden actually ever make any sense?

This is a bit hyperbolic and undermines your argument. As I've said before, I don't agree with a lot of Biden's policies, but while he's capable of a flub or two (and I really question why the right would EVER want to go there), he's a fine speaker.