Previously permanently barred, marriage fraud

[Lemontree 6]

6 hours ago, Nitas_man said:

Interesting.  Nothing tangles up immigration like unpaid child support.  
Family courts don’t look kindly on people who abandon their kiddos.  When did you file?  Support orders are retroactive to the filing date.

"But ... but... there is a pandemic and I only have 50 states to look for a job at and my EU country...

 

Flipping burgers is beneath me and you're working..."

 

Another verbatim is "consider it a loan you're giving me" in reference to my fully supporting our child. 

 

There is no point twisting someone's arm to support their own kid. It's disgusting

[Boiler 45,874]

Didn't this thread start with how to get the child's father deported? 

[Lemontree 6]

5 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Didn't this thread start with how to get the child's father deported? 

Nope. 

 

I wanted to know how to report him to relieve myself of any fraud culpability he might get implicated in ...if ever

 

Also how to protect myself as a sponsor.

 

Unless his kid will have to be responsible for supporting their dad... then that's a doozy

Edited April 29, 2021 by Lemontree

[Lemontree 6]

17 hours ago, African Zealot said:

Although the conventional response you will receive here is cut your losses, secure yourself and heal I believe that when it’s within ones power to wreak some retribution on someone who took advantage of you, you go for it. Vengeance can be very satisfying indeed so far as you’re not consumed by it.

 

It’s not true that people always reap what they sow. Karma sometimes fails. Some people harm a lot of innocent people and never suffer any earthly consequences.

 

Definitely get him (and his employer) on the illegal working under the table bit with IRS and hopefully they hit him with a stiff bill plus penalties. Hammer him on child support.

 

Of course we’re only hearing your side of the story however it appears your ex was a cold hearted straight up user. 

 

My $0.02!

Thank you. 

 

I haven't gotten my GC and left & filed for divorce in 10 days. 

 

More like 4 yrs of incessant work. 

 

But you're right. It's cathartic & no one should get away scot free from fraud or reporting it in the least

[Villanelle 4,122]

The answers here are all over the place and some are not entirely accurate. Heres how it is- The 864 can be enforced 2 ways. The first is if he uses specific federally funded welfare type benefits. Im not going to list them all out, you can find a list online if you are interested though. But iIn order to get those benefits the LPR must be an LPR for 5yrs. They are making slow changes to the system overall - they are trying to set up a system where the 864 sponsors income would be included in the LPRs application for said benefits (often excluding them from getting said benefits) and/or collecting the sponsors info at the time the benefits are applied for - so that the gov can  collect it back in the future.  Presently the gov is not collecting money from sponsors who in fact owe money. This is because it has been attempted in the past on limited occasions and it was found it cost more in collection efforts then was recouped. Hence the reform in trying to fix the system. Again this wouldnt be an issue for you until at least 5 yrs has passed and he becomes eligible to get any of those benefits, he would have to apply, be approved, and then the gov would possibly come after you for reimbursement. 

 

The second way the 864 is used is in court where the immigrant sues the sponsor. If successful the sponsor is ordered to pay $ to the immigrant to keep them at the poverty level - apx 1000 a month or so. These types of lawsuits are almost always successful. Also you would be responsible to pay for his legal fees when he wins. There is a thread buried in the Effects subforum by Brian1967 called Suing on 864 or something like that- it has a lot of information about the topic. There are also various stand alone posts from users currently struggling with this. Most people dont realize immigration law is not applied equally in every jurisdiction because the US is divided into district circuit courts based on where you live and the courts dont always agree with each other. So you want to figure out which district you are in and look at 864 cases in that district. Some courts have ruled on the 864 saying the immigrant is under no obligation to ever seek out work, others have added provisions stating they do need to attempt to find work. An 864 case in general is going to be very complicated- they look through every single document about your income- so the recommendation to get a PI may be helpful if you are going to attempt to show he does in fact have income he is hiding from the court... As a side note you may also want to consider reporting to the IRS such things.

 

I have also recently (or maybe not so recently) read something about a strategy to avoid being sued under the 864 by agreeing to limited alimony payments. Basically its the concept that once a court rules on something another court can not re rule on it. A lot of this will depend on what district you are in and how they view such. You would need to speak to an attny who handles 864 cases- (you can find them on google, most are ads geared towards the immigrant offering services to sue the sponsor but I belive they would also represent you as the sponsor). I would reach out to several of them until you find someone knowledgeable. You would need very specific language in the divorce about the alimony payments being '864' support payment agreement/ruling. An attny would need to draft the language and even then theres no guarantee the 864 court would view it as such. Hopefully you are in a district where such has already been established as precedent. So your 864 attny would need to confer with your divorce attny on the language used. 

 

The only other way out of the 864 is for him to become a citizen- which you said he does seem to want. You could also remain married for IDK the next 10 yrs so he could be credited with your SS credits (providing he hasnt/doesnt ever earn any) but thats not very realistic. You could also attempt to get a divorce or annulment based on fraud and then report such to USCIS and hope they revoke his GC due to such. I dont believe you have enough evidence to do such though. So I think your best option is to speak to a 864 attny and see if by drafting specific language into the divorce that says you will be paying alimony for a specific term due to the 864 would be enough for your district to consider the issue has been ruled on and can not be ruled on again in another court. 

 

Please keep us updated on what happens.   

 

 

 

 

[milimelo 4,535]

If he's working under the table (you said big bucks) - wouldn't IRS like to know that? Especially if he's not forthcoming on his tax returns. That's what got Al Capone...

[Lemontree 6]

19 minutes ago, milimelo said:

If he's working under the table (you said big bucks) - wouldn't IRS like to know that? Especially if he's not forthcoming on his tax returns. That's what got Al Capone...

Under the table is here in the US. No one can be in oil industry for a multinational for cash

[Lemontree 6]

48 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

The answers here are all over the place and some are not entirely accurate. Heres how it is- The 864 can be enforced 2 ways. The first is if he uses specific federally funded welfare type benefits. Im not going to list them all out, you can find a list online if you are interested though. But iIn order to get those benefits the LPR must be an LPR for 5yrs. They are making slow changes to the system overall - they are trying to set up a system where the 864 sponsors income would be included in the LPRs application for said benefits (often excluding them from getting said benefits) and/or collecting the sponsors info at the time the benefits are applied for - so that the gov can  collect it back in the future.  Presently the gov is not collecting money from sponsors who in fact owe money. This is because it has been attempted in the past on limited occasions and it was found it cost more in collection efforts then was recouped. Hence the reform in trying to fix the system. Again this wouldnt be an issue for you until at least 5 yrs has passed and he becomes eligible to get any of those benefits, he would have to apply, be approved, and then the gov would possibly come after you for reimbursement. 

 

The second way the 864 is used is in court where the immigrant sues the sponsor. If successful the sponsor is ordered to pay $ to the immigrant to keep them at the poverty level - apx 1000 a month or so. These types of lawsuits are almost always successful. Also you would be responsible to pay for his legal fees when he wins. There is a thread buried in the Effects subforum by Brian1967 called Suing on 864 or something like that- it has a lot of information about the topic. There are also various stand alone posts from users currently struggling with this. Most people dont realize immigration law is not applied equally in every jurisdiction because the US is divided into district circuit courts based on where you live and the courts dont always agree with each other. So you want to figure out which district you are in and look at 864 cases in that district. Some courts have ruled on the 864 saying the immigrant is under no obligation to ever seek out work, others have added provisions stating they do need to attempt to find work. An 864 case in general is going to be very complicated- they look through every single document about your income- so the recommendation to get a PI may be helpful if you are going to attempt to show he does in fact have income he is hiding from the court... As a side note you may also want to consider reporting to the IRS such things.

 

I have also recently (or maybe not so recently) read something about a strategy to avoid being sued under the 864 by agreeing to limited alimony payments. Basically its the concept that once a court rules on something another court can not re rule on it. A lot of this will depend on what district you are in and how they view such. You would need to speak to an attny who handles 864 cases- (you can find them on google, most are ads geared towards the immigrant offering services to sue the sponsor but I belive they would also represent you as the sponsor). I would reach out to several of them until you find someone knowledgeable. You would need very specific language in the divorce about the alimony payments being '864' support payment agreement/ruling. An attny would need to draft the language and even then theres no guarantee the 864 court would view it as such. Hopefully you are in a district where such has already been established as precedent. So your 864 attny would need to confer with your divorce attny on the language used. 

 

The only other way out of the 864 is for him to become a citizen- which you said he does seem to want. You could also remain married for IDK the next 10 yrs so he could be credited with your SS credits (providing he hasnt/doesnt ever earn any) but thats not very realistic. You could also attempt to get a divorce or annulment based on fraud and then report such to USCIS and hope they revoke his GC due to such. I dont believe you have enough evidence to do such though. So I think your best option is to speak to a 864 attny and see if by drafting specific language into the divorce that says you will be paying alimony for a specific term due to the 864 would be enough for your district to consider the issue has been ruled on and can not be ruled on again in another court. 

 

Please keep us updated on what happens.   

 

 

 

 

Thank you so very much! 

 

This is beyond helpful! I'll check all the points you mentioned. I really appreciate your points and will bring it up on my next phone call with my divorce lawyer. 

 

Annulment is as you said on fraud grounds will be difficult to prove even if it is evident. 

 

I need to mention that he specifically requested to add his sister as a Co sponsor on 864. 

 

Not sure how that plays out

[Villanelle 4,122]

LOL then Im sure his sister is not going to be pleased if he sues under the 864. She is equally responsible to keep him at the poverty guidelines. Your divorce attny probably does not know anything about the 864 hence why you should consult with an 864 attny to figure out the language needed to attempt such a strategy I described above. 

[Lemontree 6]

4 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

LOL then Im sure his sister is not going to be pleased if he sues under the 864. She is equally responsible to keep him at the poverty guidelines. Your divorce attny probably does not know anything about the 864 hence why you should consult with an 864 attny to figure out the language needed to attempt such a strategy I described above. 

Noted right. I will look into 864 specifically. 

 

Are cosponsors equally responsible as primary sponsors? 

[Villanelle 4,122]

Yes. 

 

I dont follow this topic in depth but the cases I have read up on did not include cosponsors. You can find pdfs on 864 cases pretty easily online (again check which district it is because that matters) but the ones I am familiar with involve only the sponsor because there was no co-sponsor. Im not sure how a court would divide the responsibility but I assume it would be equally because when someone cosigns they agree to the same terms as the sponsor. Its not I will be responsible if the original sponsor cant, its I will be equally responsible for this. So I assume as in small claims court processes when a judgement is issued its issued against both parties. Payments can be garnished from both parties. Its also important to note the 864 collection in these cases - they do not care if you have money or not. They will take every cent of your paycheck- even if that leaves you below the poverty guidelines!  And again some courts have ruled the immigrant does not even have to seek work. So figuring out which district you are in and looking at cases from that district is important. Also the strategy to pay out alimony to avoid an additional 864 case from being filed/ruled on is simple a suggested possible strategy- I have no idea if it will be successful or not. Your best chance at it being successful would be as I said to speak to a 864 attny along with your divorce attny to see if wording can be included in the divorce to prevent a future action being filed for support under the 864. 

 

Please keep us updated as to what happens. Wish you luck in resolving this!

 

 

[Lemontree 6]

57 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

Yes. 

 

I dont follow this topic in depth but the cases I have read up on did not include cosponsors. You can find pdfs on 864 cases pretty easily online (again check which district it is because that matters) but the ones I am familiar with involve only the sponsor because there was no co-sponsor. Im not sure how a court would divide the responsibility but I assume it would be equally because when someone cosigns they agree to the same terms as the sponsor. Its not I will be responsible if the original sponsor cant, its I will be equally responsible for this. So I assume as in small claims court processes when a judgement is issued its issued against both parties. Payments can be garnished from both parties. Its also important to note the 864 collection in these cases - they do not care if you have money or not. They will take every cent of your paycheck- even if that leaves you below the poverty guidelines!  And again some courts have ruled the immigrant does not even have to seek work. So figuring out which district you are in and looking at cases from that district is important. Also the strategy to pay out alimony to avoid an additional 864 case from being filed/ruled on is simple a suggested possible strategy- I have no idea if it will be successful or not. Your best chance at it being successful would be as I said to speak to a 864 attny along with your divorce attny to see if wording can be included in the divorce to prevent a future action being filed for support under the 864. 

 

Please keep us updated as to what happens. Wish you luck in resolving this!

 

 

Thank you so much! This is invaluable information. I'll definitely seek an 864 attorney to consult

 

Best

[B C 18]

On 4/28/2021 at 6:46 AM, Lucky Cat said:

 

That is a BIG problem, since the I-864 you signed can obligate you for many decades.

Is it not exactly one decade?

[Boiler 45,874]

26 minutes ago, Bhinda C said:

Is it not exactly one decade?

No

[HappyAndIKnowIt 24]

On 4/29/2021 at 11:36 AM, Lemontree said:

Thank you so very much! 

 

This is beyond helpful! I'll check all the points you mentioned. I really appreciate your points and will bring it up on my next phone call with my divorce lawyer. 

 

Annulment is as you said on fraud grounds will be difficult to prove even if it is evident. 

 

I need to mention that he specifically requested to add his sister as a Co sponsor on 864. 

 

Not sure how that plays out

Courts are all about litigating rights.  The reason you can be sued on the I-864 is because it created a right for the person you sponsored.  You should be able to negotiate away his right to sue you under the I-864 in the divorce, if you have not divorced yet.  Make sure to get your divorce attorney to include a release of that I-864 obligation in your divorce.