I-751 ROC--- Questions on presentation/content details

[InhaleExhale 28]

Thanks so much!

I was so relieved until i read this:

 

1 hour ago, mindthegap said:

Edit: having said that, there is definitely one potential option for him doing this in such a way that it would lead to denial - as it happened to me - but I am not posting it publicly as it may give others ideas. 

 

Oy. He is unpredictable. I am looking at his completely psychotic emails with arguments that make no sense whatsoever. 

Who knows what he can come up with in his sick mind. And likely lie. I mean he is literally lying in his emails and making false accusations against me.

 

I do appreciate that you don't post publicly whatever your ex did. Though that means that there might be not only one possibility like what she did, but maybe even more possibilities that could lead to denial based on what the ex does.

Are you saying that if one would do whatever your ex does that it in most circumstance would most certainly lead to denial bc the denial is following a protocol/policy?

Or that it may or may not lead to denial bc its based on discretion of the IO? 

 

Is there anything I could do prevent this from happening? Possibly if he did whatever your ex did or whatever else he could do...Should I write yet another letter to USCIS sharing my worries of it and reaffirming my request to switching to a divorce waiver?

 

Relaxing is easier said than done.

I have barely eaten the last days.

I heard fasting is a good thing though..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mindthegap 2,590]

Didn't mean to worry you, apologies.

It is ongoing for me, which, besides the fat that others could copy, is another reason I don't want it public. 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by mindthegap

[Villanelle 4,122]

@InhaleExhale Its going to be OK. Hindsight is always 20/20 and any mistakes you may have made you learn from and move on. Its important for you to try to relax and clear your head. When we are overwhelmed its very hard to think clearly and rationally. 'Mindfulness' is not a new therapy concept but it has become more popular the last decade or so. You can find resources for mindfulness/DBT online (or I can send you some) but the basic premise is you first have to relax and clear your head and then address whatever the problem is either with 'accept' or 'change'. The accept/change concept also shows up in that 12 step AA prayer because honestly in life those are the only 2 choices you have- you either accept things and live with them or you change them. If you have health insurance they will cover therapy visits and its usually just a minimal co pay per visit. Many therapists are doing virtual appts right now as well. Dont be afraid to reach out if you need help.

 

I know therapy isnt for everyone so the only other thing I am going to suggest is a technique called EFT- emotional freedom technique aka 'tapping'. This is based in science- the whole left brain/right brain thing. There are video clips on how to do it online as well as written guides with illustrations. Its FREE, easy, quick, and can be incredibly effective for some people. Its basically humming a tune like happy birthday while lightly tapping on various pressure points on your head/neck/body and shifting your eyes back and forth. I know it sounds silly but maybe give it a try.  

 

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Are you saying that if one would do whatever your ex does that it in most circumstance would most certainly lead to denial bc the denial is following a protocol/policy?

IMO yes.

 

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Is there anything I could do prevent this from happening? 

No.

 

This is why I started my post talking about accept/change. You have to accept that you cant control what other people do. They can lie, cheat, steal. They can hurt you. They can scheme to sabotage your immigration process and maybe they get lucky and manage to do something that does cause you issues like mindthegaps spouse did. But I truly believe mindthegap is going to overcome this as the allegations made were baseless. The wheels of justice move slowly, sometimes so slow that you struggle to believe they are still moving but they are. You just need to hang in there and make it through to the end. Accept the things you need to and change what needs to be changed. 

 

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He is unpredictable. I am looking at his completely psychotic emails with arguments that make no sense whatsoever. 

This is actually good. Seems unlikely that he would manage to draft a letter that would trigger a fraud investigation.  It would have to be written a certain way and get to specific people who then take action based on the contents. Rambling arguments that make no sense are just going to make him look like a bitter ex spouse and cause his letter to go in the trash. They are not going to sift through his letter looking for something that is not there and I promise you USCIS gets letters from angry partners every single day with almost all of them going into the trash. Very few contain actionable information. 

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So basically USCIS has received my joint application. A few days later USCIS received a letter from me asking to convert. Possibly at the same time USCIS received a call or letter from my husband asking to withdraw his signature. Because the filing is so recent there is no receipt number yet.

My worry now is:

Is there any chance USCIS could straight out deny my petition because of his possible contact and asking to withdraw his signature (without looking at my letter)?

Or will they consider my follow up letter asking to switch to a waiver?

 

When does your card expire? You can send a waiver ROC at any time but in order to get the automatic extension you need to file the 751 prior to the expiration date on the card. From what youve posted it seems like the card expired 5/19/21 and you mailed your joint ROC package right before the window closed so maybe the week of 5/10/21 and you still have not gotten the NOA yet right? And then sometime between 5/19 and today 5/30 you sent a letter asking to switch to a waiver and your ex also called/wrote to them about dropping from your joint.

 

If all that is correct:  The general procedure is when you file a joint 751 and then if either person on it advises them they no longer want to be on the joint filing they are suppose to amend the joint to a waiver. The specifics of that depend on who contacts them first about the matter. If you are the first one telling them you want to switch to a waiver you would have told them in your request which waiver you wanted to switch to and if you were electing the divorce waiver only they would expect you to include the divorce decree along with your request to switch. If you didnt include the decree you should get an RFE as a response at some point, stating they got your request and to send them the decree. They would have gotten your request first and then later if your spouse contacts them, well the case has already been converted from joint so there wont be any actions for them to take based on their request to be dropped from the joint, they are already off it. 

 

Now if your spouse contacted them first and tells them you guys are divorcing. They can and will remove your spouse from the joint filing. This leaves your filing up in the air. They can not pick which waiver you will use (there are several). Your spouse can not tell them which waiver to put you as. So they should notify you they were advised you are divorcing/divorced and do you want to switch to the divorce waiver if so send your decree and acknowledge this is the waiver you want us to process for you. Paraphrasing that as the language they use is more complicated...

I use the word should because thats what should happen. People have reported USCIS not following this procedure and simply denying the joint 751 and theres nothing you can do about that except complain to the Ombudsman about their lack of following policy and you would need to file a new 751 and pay the fees again.

 

Theres a small chance your spouses request to remove themselves from the joint got to USCIS before yours did. And then another small chance USCIS decides to close your joint filing (as denied) rather than RFE you about switching to a waiver. If this happens its not as big of a deal as it may seem. What matters to you is that you need to have an active 751 filing in order to work/travel and to eventually get conditions removed so you get the 10yr card /citizenship later if thats what you want.  

 

Now, you need to have an active 751 pending and you need to have proof of status. The NOA extension letter is only valid as an extension if your 751 was filed before the card expires. So you should be getting the NOA for the joint filing. This will be your proof of status and its valid as long as that 751 case filing is active, doesnt matter if the filing is switched to a waiver. If for some reason that filing is closed (denied or closed due to the spouses withdrawal and them not giving you a waiver option as I described above) then your NOA extension is no good anymore and you need to file a new 751. You would get a new case number for it and a NOA but because it was filed after the card expired you would need to go get yourself a 551 stamp as proof of status. That can be difficult right now due to infopass closures and restrictions but it can still be done if needed. 

 

So you have a few options.

 

You can send another 751 right now. A divorce waiver one. You would need to pay the fees again. You can have multiple pending 751s. They would each have a different case number. You have to be careful to not get them mixed up if you do this as each one would be moving independently in the system. You can let them both process or you can withdraw the joint filing one all together so you only have one case. You want to make sure you always have an active 751 and proof of status though so you would have to plan it out a bit to ensure such if you are going to withdraw the first filing completely. 

 

Or you can choose to not file a second 751 right now and wait to see what happens. If you do need to file it in the future- then you file it then. You may not ever need to and it is an additional cost not everyone can afford. 

 

Neither option above is better then the other. They both have pros and cons. Its up to you what you think is best for you. You may be forced into filing and paying for a second 751 which stinks and comes with additional issues of having to get proof of status based on that filing- or you can proactively file and pay for a second filing that was not needed so you wasted your time and money trying to address a problem you didnt actually have. 

 

In either case you will want to make sure you keep an eye on the case status of your filing(s) online. You also should make sure you have a secure address on file and use the informed delivery system from the Post Office to make sure you get any mailings that are sent. You need to have the correct address on file with the Post Office as well as USCIS mail can not be forwarded and is often returned to them due to such. You can use a PO box for a mailing address with USCIS if you need to. Im not sure what your current living situation is and how petty/psycho your ex is but even good intentioned people have issues when separating regarding mail delivery. When you fill out a change of address form with the post office it gives you the option to change your name only or the entire family. If you have any problems with mail you simply need to go to your local post office and ask for help in fixing it.  

 

Remember to breathe. Inhale Exhale right>  < 

[InhaleExhale 28]

@Villanelle, Thank you so much for your reply, deeply appreciate your detailed contributions ❤️

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

Hindsight is always 20/20 and any mistakes you may have made you learn from and move on. Its important for you to try to relax and clear your head. When we are overwhelmed its very hard to think clearly and rationally. 'Mindfulness' is not a new therapy concept but it has become more popular the last decade or so. You can find resources for mindfulness/DBT online (or I can send you some) but the basic premise is you first have to relax and clear your head and then address whatever the problem is either with 'accept' or 'change'.

Yes, *accept or change*. Thank you for the reminder. I should tattoo this onto my forehead. lol

I have learned so much in the last 2 years. And still learning as obvious lol

I used to meditate regularly which now would be a great time to get back into it. I have tried tapping before and thank you for mentioning it bc I remember when I tried it felt good. There seem to be an overflow of different strategies to overcome emotional pain. A few years ago I started to fathom the concept of the illusion of thought/ego which ultimately would eliminate any suffering. I have not been able to apply it in my life but it makes so much sense . I found Eckhart Tolle's "Power of Now" especially insightful. Sure, if you like to send the mindfulness/DBT resources you found helpful, I'd welcome them, thank you  

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

I truly believe mindthegap is going to overcome this as the allegations made were baseless.

I hope that he will! I also hope that when he does, it will set some form of a precedent at USCIS so that in the future any actions alike have to be investigated first before being acted on and actors should be charged appropriately.

 

************

The timeline was like this, trying to make it as easy as possible: --> let's say on Day 10 the GC expired

Day 3: Joint I-751 received at USCIS

Day 5: I chatted with (chat dropped) and called USCIS asking about their procedure once my husband informs them to have his signature withdrawn. I also informed them about our planned divorcing and that I sent a waiver request letter. Tier 1 officer didn't know and told me a tier 2 officer will call me back within 14 days.

Day 5 or 6: My husband called USCIS asking to have his signature on the form withdrawn, they told him someone will call him within a few days

Day 6: My letter asking to convert to waiver received at USCIS

Day 7: I chatted again with USCIS and they stated in the chat (screenshots saved) that my spouse cannot withdraw the entire petition bc he is not the applicant and also not a petitioner. When I referred to another policy manual of USCIS indicating the opposite, they would not comment on that. (That policy is further below)

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

The general procedure is when you file a joint 751 and then if either person on it advises them they no longer want to be on the joint filing they are suppose to amend the joint to a waiver. The specifics of that depend on who contacts them first about the matter.

What qualifies for "advise" or "contact"? A chat, phone call or only a wet signed letter?

I would speculate that an actual withdrawal can only be honored by a written letter, not via a phone call. If so I assume if the officer calls him back they will ask him to mail a written request.

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

If you didnt include the decree you should get an RFE as a response at some point, stating they got your request and to send them the decree. They would have gotten your request first and then later if your spouse contacts them, well the case has already been converted from joint so there wont be any actions for them to take based on their request to be dropped from the joint, they are already off it. 

What is the time of conversion to waiver? Is it only once they receive the final decree OR already once they receive my request to convert?

Bc in this case my husbands possible withdrawal letter would arrive after they received my waiver request but before they receive the divorce decree...

Which leaves me wondering: can they still withdraw the entire petition (on my husbands request) even after they received my waiver request just merely because they don't have the decree yet?

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

I use the word should because thats what should happen. People have reported USCIS not following this procedure and simply denying the joint 751

Denying even? Not just withdrawing..?

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

The general procedure is when you file a joint 751 and then if either person on it advises them they no longer want to be on the joint filing they are suppose to amend the joint to a waiver.

When you say they should, which exact policy are you referring to?

I am only aware of the Neufeld memo from April 3, 2009 where the issuing of RFE's is mentioned but that memo is not pertaining to the US spouse withdrawing (or not wanting to be on) the application during its process.

In fact, and to my shock, I have found a USCIS-manual that indicates application of case law and to withdraw the entire I-751 when one of the joint petitioners withdraws it:

 https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/policy-manual-afm/afm25-external.pdf 

It literally says they shall consider the entire jointly filed I-751 withdrawn if one of the petitioners (= e.g. US spouse) withdraws.

(on page 22:) "Where the parties to a marriage have jointly filed a Petition to Remove the Conditions on Residence, but one of the parties withdraws support from the petition before its adjudication, the joint petition shall be considered withdrawn and shall be adjudicated under section 216(c)(2)(A) of the Act (i.e., the CPR status terminated)."

If I am interpreting this incorrectly please let me know, I would love to be wrong!

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

you need to file a new 751. You would get a new case number for it and a NOA but because it was filed after the card expired you would need to go get yourself a 551 stamp as proof of status. 

Oh, I did not know that. So if i file a new I-751 after my GC expired they would NOT send me another extension letter?

As far as living situation, we have been living apart since last summer and I just got my own PO Box last week, I already updated it with USCIS online and included in my waiver request letter.

I will do the mail forwarding as you suggested, good idea.

I can't wait to be divorced and finally having cut all ties from him. Eliminated all his influence on factors in my life and my liberties.

 

5 hours ago, Villanelle said:

Remember to breathe. Inhale Exhale right>  < 

Hehe, yes  gotta honor my user name  

Edited May 30, 2021 by InhaleExhale
correction

[Villanelle 4,122]

With USCIS the exact specifics always matter. In law the policies and laws are written by the higher ups and everyone below struggles to understand it. Sometimes it ends up not being applied consistently as people interpret it differently. The 'memos' are designed to clear up confusion and the Ombudsman does reviews and advises them on inconsistencies and issues with how its actually being done vs how its suppose to be done. 

 

I would have to attempt to research what the specifics are for 'making contact' to withdraw from a spouse on a joint 751 but my gut tells me they would need something in writing or it would have to be done in person. I cant imagine the multitudes of privacy provisions they have somehow allow for a phone call to suffice. If so it would be far too easy for people to interfere in others cases by simply calling and requesting changes. 

 

But this is where the specifics matter. There are certain policies that apply to you as the principal applicant and other policies apply to the spouse joint applicant. As I tried to explain for you as the principle applicant - you would notify them by sending a letter requesting to switch to a waiver. You are expected to tell them which waiver and include your evidence. You can amend your 751.. Your ex spouse is different. They can not amend your filing. So the bit you quoted about them withdrawing does apply. They can withdraw, they can not amend. There is a difference between withdraw and amend. When looking at policy you have to make sure you are looking at the right things and they are applicable. 

 

So withdrawing the 751 means in simple English- you take it back. You pull it back like you never applied. When a petition is submitted and then later withdrawn it shows in their system as a denial because in their system its only pending approved denied. The denial is because you withdrew so you didnt qualify. Amend is when you change something. So your joint 751 is changed into a waiver. It was amended

 

The memo has wording of if the service center is advised of a divorce. This is where some of the inconsistencies in the application of the policies lie. Sometimes the spouses attempt to contact USCIS results in USCIS saying- oh so theres a divorce? thanks for advising us. We will RFE the principal applicant and per the memo offer to switch them to a waiver. Other times they get a letter from the spouse and say oh you want to withdraw from the joint. No problem. We will remove you. And in doing so the 751 is not amended, its canceled/withdrawn as per the policy you quoted below. 

 

So in a way it depends on who contacts them first and the contents of each contact as well as the person who is reviewing it interprets things and applies policy. Does that all make sense? You cant really do anything about it except attempt to be the first contact and be prepared if the cards fall in a way where your 751 is then marked as denied due to a withdrawal from one party rather than amended to a waiver. If that happens you can complain to the Ombudsman as they are the ones who gather such complaints and then present the issue to USCIS to make sure it doesnt keep happening to others in the future. 

 

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Your conversion to a waiver would occur when they get your request to do so and process it. Remember you can have a pending 751 divorce waiver processing w/o a divorce decree in their hands. It just wont be approved until they have it. This was all went over in more details in prior postings. But now we are back to who said what to them first that they took action on. If it was you they would have gotten your request, they accepted it and would RFE you for additional things for your case to be completed like the actual decree you didnt send them yet. In that situation your 751 was amended to a waiver filing when the read your letter, said OK, marked the file as such, then generated an RFE for the missing items in your file due to the change in being a waiver case now. If it was your spouse who contacted them first then like explained above they can view that as them being advised of a divorce- which would cause them to RFE you to both clarify/confirm that is the change you want to make and it would instruct you to submit the additional documents needed to process it. They need to clarify/confirm the change because they can approve you as a joint even if divorce is pending (all that was in the prior postings as well). So they cant amend for you and if you dont want to amend you dont have to. They can also view your spouses letter as a request to withdraw and if thats what they see first they may accept it as a party is withdrawing and close the filing as denied rather than offering you the waiver option. This is because if one party withdraws you can no longer be approved on a joint.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, InhaleExhale said:

 

 

Oh, I did not know that. So if i file a new I-751 after my GC expired they would NOT send me another extension letter?

You will get a NOA for the filing and it will have the wording of being an extension on it but the fine print of it says this is only valid as an extension if the 751 was timely filed. The only 751 you have timely filed is the joint one. So if that filing is amended and continues to be active the extension letter will continue to be valid. If that filing is denied and/or you file a second 751, that filing would not be timely filed so the NOA can not be used as an extension and you would need a 551 stamp as proof of status.

 

For your situation: It seems they got your letter first so I would expect it to be processed first and you should be receiving the NOA from the filing soon if you havent yet already. You can then expect the RFE asking for the divorce decree. You will need to respond to the RFE and send the decree if you have it or a response stating you do not have it. You must respond. If you respond you dont have it you can expect to be put on the list to wait for an interview slot. If you get the decree prior to an interview slot you should send it asap because they may decide once they get it they no longer need to interview you and approve you. You may still be interviewed though. If you go to the interview and still dont have the decree you will end up in court system. 

 

The above is the most likely scenario that will play out. The alternating scenarios are- is you would get the NOA from the joint filing but then your spouses letter is processed as a withdrawal first so you would get a denial; or you get the NOA and then an RFE stating they were advised of a divorce change in circumstances and do you want to be a waiver and send us the decree. You would have to respond to that the same as above, its exactly the same except it was not triggered by you.