Honesty, Asia style!

[ding 1]

I found that Lek was lying to me. Nothing big and bad, just a LOT of lying. It didn't stop even after we talked it out many times.

So after a couple months I told her it was over. She was crushed, me too. And so was my little boy who loved her dearly and looked to her as his new mom. I just couldn't bring all this deception into our lives so after another lie, I sent the request to cancel to NVC.

That's it folks. No turning back -and I tried everything once she came clean and overcame the lying.

So after ending it and letting go, I talked to a friends who lived there about it. I don't like to impose my personal problems on friends, but wish I would have talked to them first.

They both said that the impulse to avoid conflict and not lose face will cause Thais to lie. They both said that she could have understood that honesty is important, and even felt that she didn't lie. I guess it was a lifelong personal/societal pattern for her. Very hard for her to break it I guess. And I'm her first deep love, committed relationship. She just worked a cashier job 6 days a week to help her mom.

So pain is the touchstone of growth yet again. She was very sad to have hurt me and lost our love. She stopped lying and came clean. The lies seemed sooo silly and needless to me. But maybe it's an Asian thing I just can't fully understand.

Anyone else run into this?

[SqdnGuns 21]

I found that Lek was lying to me. Nothing big and bad, just a LOT of lying. It didn't stop even after we talked it out many times.

So after a couple months I told her it was over. She was crushed, me too. And so was my little boy who loved her dearly and looked to her as his new mom. I just couldn't bring all this deception into our lives so after another lie, I sent the request to cancel to NVC.

That's it folks. No turning back -and I tried everything once she came clean and overcame the lying.

So after ending it and letting go, I talked to a friends who lived there about it. I don't like to impose my personal problems on friends, but wish I would have talked to them first.

They both said that the impulse to avoid conflict and not lose face will cause Thais to lie. They both said that she could have understood that honesty is important, and even felt that she didn't lie. I guess it was a lifelong personal/societal pattern for her. Very hard for her to break it I guess. And I'm her first deep love, committed relationship. She just worked a cashier job 6 days a week to help her mom.

So pain is the touchstone of growth yet again. She was very sad to have hurt me and lost our love. She stopped lying and came clean. The lies seemed sooo silly and needless to me. But maybe it's an Asian thing I just can't fully understand.

Anyone else run into this?

You obviously didn't/don't know the Thai culture too well. It is a cultural thing, not a personal thing. All you can do is stand firm but at the same time be understanding and patient. (This is with any culture other than yours) Saving FACE is a MUST for Thai's, especially from the NE region.

You will have your 10% that are "runners" but overall, they will be loyal to you to the end as long as you reciprocate, it is a two way street. My fiancee and I had some misunderstandings but worked through it. I'm sure we will have even more when she arrives to the states but we both know not to over react and to talk about it.

Chok Dee

Edited July 1, 2007 by SqdnGuns

[Rings 10]

I am sorry to hear about your loss. Perhaps time will allow you two to work through it if possible. *hugs*

Edited July 2, 2007 by Rings

[sealedkiss 1]

Ding,

You obviously struggled a lot and I'm sorry it happened to you. Only you know her best, so I won't advise one away or the other. Here's what I think.

Lying is no news. Americans lie all the time to not hurt others' feelings; things like "I like your shirt," or "you did great." Asian people are less likely to make such compliments, but for trivial things they tend to agree with you to avoid conflicts - even though they think otherwise. Sometimes we (all of us) also lie about a personal thing, because we don't want to share it. These lies, if not too frequent and without ill intentions, are acceptable in my opinions.

Asian females, especially the ones with a little bit weak personality, will lie to their husbands to avoid upsetting them. You may choose to accept it, but not before carefully estimating how much damage it can do. For example, your kid skips school today and hangs out with the bad guys. Your wife knows about it, but lies to you in order to avoid your anger in the house and to protect the kid. Would you accept that?

Again only you can judge the level of lying and how much is acceptable to you and make your best decision.

Good luck,

sealedkiss

[Thai Pham 0]

removed per TOS. -Ewok

[Thai Pham 0]

removed.

[payxibka 10,047]

I am assuming that you going to develop other models of this "cutting edge" technology, yes? Which model are you going to develop first? Russian? Brazilian? Canadian?

[Yodrak 7]

Good question, good answer.

I'd like to add that it isn't going to stop. May be reduced with time and effort, but her nature has developed and isn't going to change dramatically now.

Part of the two-way street that SqdnGuns mentions is that you, ding, are going to have to become more accepting of it. Learn to recognize when it's happening and know from that what the truth is. You'll have your answer, told to you in her own way.

My wife still often reminds me after 4 years of marriage, "Honey, can't you read my signal?" Lek is unlikely to be that forthright with you, but she will expect you to 'read her signal' - understand what she means without her having said anything or having said the complete opposite.

Yodrak

I found that Lek was lying to me. Nothing big and bad, just a LOT of lying. It didn't stop even after we talked it out many times.

.....

Anyone else run into this?

You obviously didn't/don't know the Thai culture too well. It is a cultural thing, not a personal thing. All you can do is stand firm but at the same time be understanding and patient. (This is with any culture other than yours) Saving FACE is a MUST for Thai's, especially from the NE region.

You will have your 10% that are "runners" but overall, they will be loyal to you to the end as long as you reciprocate, it is a two way street. .....

Chok Dee

[ding 1]

So the collective and compounding wisdom here is pretty cool. I really apreciate this place.

For my part, I forgive better than in my youth and accept much better.

For her part, well that's her part. We'll see if she continues to "just say out" and "say for true". I think she'll be fine, much more truthful. My gut tells me it's okay now. But after 30+ years a person's character is set. Only a change of psyche from a lot of pain, spiritual growth, or something - gets us humans to make a change in our characters.

She's a strong, independent woman and I like that.

Western women often like to have their needs anticipated too. But I think it's an expectation and a hidden need to have you show that you understand their needs, and therefore -them.

With Thai women, maybe other Asian women, I think it has more to do with conflict avoidance, politeness, and face-saving. It must be almost innate to lie because there must be pretty heavy social pressure to be seen as "good".

just my .02

[Portlander 0]

All of the advice I have gotten on Thai-farang relationships says that in this case the Thai 'must' concede on. I have come to realize that there is no well in H-E- double-hockey-sticks that I will ever be able to effective communicate like a Thai. Soft talk and the way things are said when face is being saved, and the cues about whose job it is to do what and where are sublte and complex, and even if I understand the words I will never get more than a rough idea of the real context of the situation. "Culture" is defined as a "shared set of ideas" and there are connotations to everything that will forever elude me. With a cross-cultural relationship, especially one with language difficulties, straight, honest, direct communication is the only way to be clear. The alternative is misunderstanding. If you can live with never really knowing whats going on, well, I guess thats fine, then, but thats something you have to be concious of. And this also involves things that really matter.

Women are hard enough to understand when they grow up next door....