Giuliani cites Glasgow attack in call for immigration policy

[Dan J 277]

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

I think there is a misunderstanding on what is meant by ID theft. With illegal aliens most ID theft will just occur to get someone a job. Which will have no effect on the person who might own the number. Other than they end up with more social security benefits then they are entitled too. And for a fake number well SS and taxes get paid for a person that doesn't exist. Ones credit score will likely not be affected.

Now the ID theft that your talking about is different. Thats ID theft used to get credit and commit fraud. Since many illegal aliens can get help from the Mexican embassy with matrícula consular to get credit and cell phones, they don't need to resort to ID theft to do so.

When a person has a legitimate claim for SS benefits due to a disability, for example, the SSA will not honor that claim if the record shows that contributions from employment are coming in under that person's SSN. The person in need of the benefits then will need to clear up the fraudulent use of his/her SSN before receiving the benefits they are due. That's not harmless. ID theft is never harmless. Ever.

If you feel differently, maybe you ought to volunteer your SSN up for use by illegal aliens. Since no harm will be done to you, you shouldn't have a problem with that. Would you walk the walk? I didn't think so.

You are describing a problem that can be easily solved through amnesty and legalization. It doesn't really matter, it will pretty much go away in either solution.

It'll go away if the illegals are not be treated as if they were above the law.

Use a fake ID, we'll track you down and kick you out. Problem solved.

No amnesty needed.

I said that, but your using it as an argument against amnesty and legalization, when really it will be solved with enforcement or legalization. So your point is?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem.

I have said time and again why no amnesty will solve the problem: There are always more people looking to come to the US than there will be available slots to do so legally. Each time we grant amnesty to any lot of illegals, it'll validate their unlawful actions and raise hope with the next (and usually bigger) lot of people wanting to come here that amnesty will be bestowed upon them if only they disregard the immigration laws that this country has set, come here no matter what and hang in just long enough. No amnesty has ever solved the problem. No amnesty ever will. Not as long as there are more than a billion people looking to come to this country.

Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

It harms the person that the identity belongs to. It affects that person's credit score and will have an adverse effect if that person happens to be eligible for SS benefits. Many people have to fight the SSA for their benefits that are being denied because the SSA record shows that you're still working while it's actually some illegal alien that is working using your identity.

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but it would be rather intersting to see how you'd feel when it's your ID that is "harmlessly" stolen. When you can't qualify for credit to buy that car or that home because lots of credit has been extended to you already - just that you're not aware of it.

ID theft is a criminal offense for a reason. There is no such thing as a harmless ID theft. Once you're the victim, you'd probably understand.

I think there is a misunderstanding on what is meant by ID theft. With illegal aliens most ID theft will just occur to get someone a job. Which will have no effect on the person who might own the number. Other than they end up with more social security benefits then they are entitled too. And for a fake number well SS and taxes get paid for a person that doesn't exist. Ones credit score will likely not be affected.

Now the ID theft that your talking about is different. Thats ID theft used to get credit and commit fraud. Since many illegal aliens can get help from the Mexican embassy with matrícula consular to get credit and cell phones, they don't need to resort to ID theft to do so.

When a person has a legitimate claim for SS benefits due to a disability, for example, the SSA will not honor that claim if the record shows that contributions from employment are coming in under that person's SSN. The person in need of the benefits then will need to clear up the fraudulent use of his/her SSN before receiving the benefits they are due. That's not harmless. ID theft is never harmless. Ever.

If you feel differently, maybe you ought to volunteer your SSN up for use by illegal aliens. Since no harm will be done to you, you shouldn't have a problem with that. Would you walk the walk? I didn't think so.

You are describing a problem that can be easily solved through amnesty and legalization. It doesn't really matter, it will pretty much go away in either solution.

It'll go away if the illegals are not be treated as if they were above the law.

Use a fake ID, we'll track you down and kick you out. Problem solved.

No amnesty needed.

I said that, but your using it as an argument against amnesty and legalization, when really it will be solved with enforcement or legalization. So your point is?

So, amnesty for ID theft? Sure, good call.

[Dan J 277]

Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem.

I have said time and again why no amnesty will solve the problem: There are always more people looking to come to the US than there will be available slots to do so legally. Each time we grant amnesty to any lot of illegals, it'll validate their unlawful actions and raise hope with the next (and usually bigger) lot of people wanting to come here that amnesty will be bestowed upon them if only they disregard the immigration laws that this country has set, come here no matter what and hang in just long enough. No amnesty has ever solved the problem. No amnesty ever will. Not as long as there are more than a billion people looking to come to this country.

I never said enforcement is not part of the solution, but its not a solution on its own. I do realize that there will be a greater supply of people looking to come here than there will be work. But I also realize enforcement on its own will be very expensive (both directly and indirectly) with a limited effectiveness. There will always be those willing to skirt or work outside the law. It will continue as long as immigrant labor remains cheaper than native labor. But instead you will get more people working as indentured servants, for less than minimum wage and not allowed to go home.

What do we gain? A question for which no one has given a clear answer. Do you spend millions on an alarm and hire security for a building that has nothing in it to steal?

Enforcement will still be necessary no matter what. Legalization doesn't make the need for it to go away. But the costs needed for enforcement go way down, when your dealing with a much smaller population. And we will have less problems with lack of jail space and illegal immigrants escaping from deportation orders.

[Dan J 277]

So, amnesty for ID theft? Sure, good call.

And enforcement/deportation isn't necessarily the only solution.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem.

I have said time and again why no amnesty will solve the problem: There are always more people looking to come to the US than there will be available slots to do so legally. Each time we grant amnesty to any lot of illegals, it'll validate their unlawful actions and raise hope with the next (and usually bigger) lot of people wanting to come here that amnesty will be bestowed upon them if only they disregard the immigration laws that this country has set, come here no matter what and hang in just long enough. No amnesty has ever solved the problem. No amnesty ever will. Not as long as there are more than a billion people looking to come to this country.

I never said enforcement is not part of the solution, but its not a solution on its own.

Enforcement first. We've got to stop the bleeding. The government needs to build credibility with the people. Once the government demonstrates that enforcement is done successfully, we can revisit the issue of those that are left here (obviously, as enforcement goes up, there will be people removed and there will be people leaving on their own). Amnesty outright is putting the cart before the horse. No sane person would do that. Amnesty for those fugitives that have already been ordered deported would be the gravest mistake.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So, amnesty for ID theft? Sure, good call.

And enforcement/deportation isn't necessarily the only solution.

An illegal alien should not be better before the law than a US citizen or lawful resident.

ID theft is a felony. Felons are not eligible to immigrate.

[Dan J 277]

Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem.

I have said time and again why no amnesty will solve the problem: There are always more people looking to come to the US than there will be available slots to do so legally. Each time we grant amnesty to any lot of illegals, it'll validate their unlawful actions and raise hope with the next (and usually bigger) lot of people wanting to come here that amnesty will be bestowed upon them if only they disregard the immigration laws that this country has set, come here no matter what and hang in just long enough. No amnesty has ever solved the problem. No amnesty ever will. Not as long as there are more than a billion people looking to come to this country.

I never said enforcement is not part of the solution, but its not a solution on its own.

Enforcement first. We've got to stop the bleeding. The government needs to build credibility with the people. Once the government demonstrates that enforcement is done successfully, we can revisit the issue of those that are left here (obviously, as enforcement goes up, there will be people removed and there will be people leaving on their own). Amnesty outright is putting the cart before the horse. No sane person would do that. Amnesty for those fugitives that have already been ordered deported would be the gravest mistake.

Or nothing really changes, and those here go deeper underground. Which will not solve anything, only make enforcement much harder and more expensive to do. Which is more likely to happen based on past history, rather than your idealistic view of the results.

There will still be people living underground and out of the law no matter what. But whats cheaper, dealing with 12 million people or a couple hundred thousand? And what do we gain after spending all this money? you still haven't answered that.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem.

I have said time and again why no amnesty will solve the problem: There are always more people looking to come to the US than there will be available slots to do so legally. Each time we grant amnesty to any lot of illegals, it'll validate their unlawful actions and raise hope with the next (and usually bigger) lot of people wanting to come here that amnesty will be bestowed upon them if only they disregard the immigration laws that this country has set, come here no matter what and hang in just long enough. No amnesty has ever solved the problem. No amnesty ever will. Not as long as there are more than a billion people looking to come to this country.

I never said enforcement is not part of the solution, but its not a solution on its own.

Enforcement first. We've got to stop the bleeding. The government needs to build credibility with the people. Once the government demonstrates that enforcement is done successfully, we can revisit the issue of those that are left here (obviously, as enforcement goes up, there will be people removed and there will be people leaving on their own). Amnesty outright is putting the cart before the horse. No sane person would do that. Amnesty for those fugitives that have already been ordered deported would be the gravest mistake.

Or nothing really changes, and those here go deeper underground. Which will not solve anything, only make enforcement much harder and more expensive to do. Which is more likely to happen based on past history, rather than your idealistic view of the results.

There will still be people living underground and out of the law no matter what. But whats cheaper, dealing with 12 million people or a couple hundred thousand? And what do we gain after spending all this money? you still haven't answered that.

My idealistic view of the results? Remember, we've done the amnesty spiel. All it did was generate an even larger wave of illegals. There is nothing that suggests that a new amnesty done before effective enforcement is in place would yield any different result. So, let's put the horse before the cart, get the enforcement done and then we can talk about what to do with those that are here and shouldn't be. Your approach is doing the same thing expecting a different result. That it the very definition of insanity.

[GaryC 7]

Right, solve the problem by making what they do legal. That makes a lot of sense. I would like to rob banks. It isn't hurting anyone. Only the FDIC will lose money. Can we make that legal?

Sure you can do that if you want. I'll be on my way out by then, I would rather not be around when the economy collapses.

But legalizing illegal immigrants wont have such and impact, other than pissing of people like you. Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem. I know why some people don't like amnesty, and well, try to find other reasons, as their real reasons would be very politically incorrect. There are probably good reasons, outside of "No More Amnesty!" to not do it. But lets keep the debate about those reasons rather than polls, and biased research.

I will answer your comment here by replying to one of your earlier posts. It's like shooting fish in a barrel to put your answers where they belong, in the trash.

You didn't read it did you? Your just going to keep stating your points, and hope i believe them. So let me ask you to justify your points.

Many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

Is that a problem? Go to college and get a better job? Or do we protect those who want to be lazy?

Nice compassion there. A lot of people can't go to college or are not smart enough for college. But what the hell, give an illegal alien the job rather than an American.

They drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

And create jobs in other sectors?

Really? Where do they create jobs? Please show me.

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

ET did a good job of showing the error in your judgment. Prove him wrong and give an illegal your SSN.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare. and If they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

Even with many illegal immigrants working we still have a relatively low unemployment rate, 4.8%, so exactly how are they driving it up? Most illegals cant get welfare, or are you talking about driving it up for the people being put out of work? In which case, go to school?

Hello!!! We will not always have 4.8% unemployment! Don't you believe that illegals can't get welfare either. If they have an anchor baby they can get it. They also get free schooling and free health care. That costs all of us big bux And your last comment, "go to school"? That speaks for itself. And people call me heartless!

Its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

So a argument about life not being fair, sorry this argument is pretty stupid.

Uh, yeah. I seem to remember someone saying that amnsety is right because it is fair. You guys need to get on the same page. But if that is your attitude then why are you here? Why didn't you buy your SO a ticket to Mexico and walk her across? Your attitude is pretty stupid.

The bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

While that is in dispute, since in some places its actually driven down crime. But considering most illegals are poor, doing you think the fact that they are poor is more of a factor or that they are illegal is?

Illegals have driven DOWN crime? Please show me where you got that one from. The fact that they are poor is no excuse. If they were not here illegally then there wouldn't be a problem with illegals causing trouble.

In short I have just shown you the error in your judgment. Does that mean you will stop with your uninformed comments? I doubt it but we can always hope.

[Dan J 277]

Who really haven't justified why amnesty is a bad solution to the problem.

I have said time and again why no amnesty will solve the problem: There are always more people looking to come to the US than there will be available slots to do so legally. Each time we grant amnesty to any lot of illegals, it'll validate their unlawful actions and raise hope with the next (and usually bigger) lot of people wanting to come here that amnesty will be bestowed upon them if only they disregard the immigration laws that this country has set, come here no matter what and hang in just long enough. No amnesty has ever solved the problem. No amnesty ever will. Not as long as there are more than a billion people looking to come to this country.

I never said enforcement is not part of the solution, but its not a solution on its own.

Enforcement first. We've got to stop the bleeding. The government needs to build credibility with the people. Once the government demonstrates that enforcement is done successfully, we can revisit the issue of those that are left here (obviously, as enforcement goes up, there will be people removed and there will be people leaving on their own). Amnesty outright is putting the cart before the horse. No sane person would do that. Amnesty for those fugitives that have already been ordered deported would be the gravest mistake.

Or nothing really changes, and those here go deeper underground. Which will not solve anything, only make enforcement much harder and more expensive to do. Which is more likely to happen based on past history, rather than your idealistic view of the results.

There will still be people living underground and out of the law no matter what. But whats cheaper, dealing with 12 million people or a couple hundred thousand? And what do we gain after spending all this money? you still haven't answered that.

My idealistic view of the results? Remember, we've done the amnesty spiel. All it did was generate an even larger wave of illegals. There is nothing that suggests that a new amnesty done before effective enforcement is in place would yield any different result. So, let's put the horse before the cart, get the enforcement done and then we can talk about what to do with those that are here and shouldn't be. Your approach is doing the same thing expecting a different result. That it the very definition of insanity.

If you look at the same bill, we also did enforcement (along with creating the I-9 form), and you think that we will somehow improve? Just like your skeptical of amnesty due to that bill, thats also one of the reasons why I am very skeptical that enforcement alone will work. We did it once in the 1986 bill, and we even added more enforcement in a bill 10 years later. Go back a few pages if you would like to see the bills yourself.

Even recently, we have increased hiring of border patrol officers. But yet, we still have a problem.

Answer this question, we will spend billions if we do enforcement alone, what do we get for those billions?

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

dan, here are my comments:

You didn't read it did you? Your just going to keep stating your points, and hope i believe them. So let me ask you to justify your points.

Many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

Is that a problem? Go to college and get a better job? Or do we protect those who want to be lazy?

so everyone is forced to go to college? what about the majority that can't afford it? or just can't cut it? and i agree about the point with kids outta high school, if i was a kid nowadays i'd not be able to earn spending money doing such things as mowing yards and other yard work.

They drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

And create jobs in other sectors?

the unemployment figures would be lower then wouldn't they? nice try and let's not forget the additional burden to schools and medical facilities while you're at it.

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

if you were a victim of id theft by an illegal you might be singing a different tune. i know i'd not want to go thru that nightmare.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare. and If they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

Even with many illegal immigrants working we still have a relatively low unemployment rate, 4.8%, so exactly how are they driving it up? Most illegals cant get welfare, or are you talking about driving it up for the people being put out of work? In which case, go to school?

oh yes, that answer again. go to school. i'm sure everyone has a pocketfull of cash to pay for it. if you ask around, you'd discover that on average, the typical vj'er would not be able to do such nor afford such for their kids. not sure where you get that 4.8% from but i doubt such applies in a few states of choice, like michigan.

Its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

So a argument about life not being fair, sorry this argument is pretty stupid.

no comment

The bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

While that is in dispute, since in some places its actually driven down crime. But considering most illegals are poor, doing you think the fact that they are poor is more of a factor or that they are illegal is?

and that it has been driven down is in dispute too. quite a few sources i've cited over time in vj shows a higher percentage of illegal immigrants as criminals than the average american population. and we're not talking about the illegals committing crimes as trivial as jaywalking or speeding either. and btw, they can't be poor as they are here working - if they were poor here and poor in their own country, what would be their incentive for coming here?

You are describing a problem that can be easily solved through amnesty and legalization. It doesn't really matter, it will pretty much go away in either solution.

i heard that song and dance back in '86. try again

[mawilson 2,133]

Its "Amnesty"

LOL erekose.

"Amnasty" sounds so....well, nasty.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Answer this question, we will spend billions if we do enforcement alone, what do we get for those billions?

Control over our borders and immigration flow. We also stand to save billions in the process.

It's quite simple: I ain't falling for the propaganda that the profiteers of illegal migration put out - essentially that capitulation is the only answer. I also do not fall for the propaganda that the profiteers of our broken health care system put out to scare America away from nationalized health care which would be much preferable to what we currently have. Besides being much less expensive. But we're being told that this would result in Communism or the worst health care system imaginable. Neither is true. Same goes for this amnesty nonsense.

[Dan J 277]

Nice compassion there. A lot of people can't go to college or are not smart enough for college. But what the hell, give an illegal alien the job rather than an American.

Isn't the conservative argument for someone in poverty, go to school or find a job? I'm not saying this is right, but I'm trying to show you an argument from a point of view that you would likely more easily understand.

Really? Where do they create jobs? Please show me.

I know in your world, things work on Gary economics, but out here, its a lot different. But for you to understand how illegal immigration can create jobs in other sectors, its going to require the reasoning part of your brain for a bit.

12 million people here, are consumers in our economic system, It doesn't matter if they are here legally or not. Granted they in general they don't have a lot of buying power individually, since they don't make a lot, but collectively they still put back billions in the the US economy. They do so by buying food, services, products, paying rent. This creates growth in the companies that provide these products and services. Which in means they create more jobs and hire on more people. These companies are going to require more services from companies that provided business to business services, and they will in turn also make more money and hire on more people.

This argument would be different had we no illegal immigrants in this country, but instead, are economy has already grown to take into account these 12 million consumers. Removing them will cause a vacuum. Companies will downsize as 12 million people no longer will be buying their products, that means at least for some people, they will be out of a job.

We will have a situation similar to the dot com bubble bursting, with many skilled people looking for work. But not enough jobs to fill them. I guess there will always be demands at meat packing plants or in construction or farm labor.

So there I showed you, now its up to you to take the time to understand it, or you will simply ignore it because it weakens your postiton.

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

ET did a good job of showing the error in your judgment. Prove him wrong and give an illegal your SSN.

Yes if you read the following posts, I pretty much showed that as an argument against amnesty its pretty moot since amnesty and or enforcement will fix it.

Hello!!! We will not always have 4.8% unemployment! Don't you believe that illegals can't get welfare either. If they have an anchor baby they can get it. They also get free schooling and free health care. That costs all of us big bux And your last comment, "go to school"? That speaks for itself. And people call me heartless!

Looking at more current data, in the last two quarters, unemployment, has stayed at 4.5 percent. If you take out teenagers who may have other reasons for not working, the unemployment rate is actually around 4% and its been that way for at least two quarters. But people have many reasons for not working, not a lack of jobs in the un-skilled labor market.

Peronsally I don't care if they get welfare or not, we would still be paying welfare with illegal aliens or not. Poverty is part of a free market system. It doesn't go away when they leave. So are you suggesting any poor person shouldn't get welfare?

Are you trying to show compassion? or trying to support a generally compassionate position because it makes your position stronger. Isn't the argument most conservatives give to people in poverty, is to get an education and find a job? I wonder how your position would change if this discussion would be about Poverty instead of Illegal immigration. Why does that argument change when we talk about illegals?

Uh, yeah. I seem to remember someone saying that amnsety is right because it is fair. You guys need to get on the same page. But if that is your attitude then why are you here? Why didn't you buy your SO a ticket to Mexico and walk her across? Your attitude is pretty stupid.

Because I had a legal immigration option, and so do you. But many people don't, and you are not interest in making one. I'm not really sure what your point is. Other than you pointed out the flaw in our immigration system.

Illegals have driven DOWN crime? Please show me where you got that one from. The fact that they are poor is no excuse. If they were not here illegally then there wouldn't be a problem with illegals causing trouble.

That was posted on here, but you as I expected brushed at off as BS, two can play that game, you can show me your source and I can call it conservative FUD. But thats why I said it was in dispute, you can find research and sources that point both ways. And considering that many of these people fill low wage jobs, poverty is likely a much more relevant factor, and the issue would remain regardless of having illegal immigrants or not. So why this issue is framed specifically around illegal immigration I still don't know.

In short I have just shown you the error in your judgment. Does that mean you will stop with your uninformed comments? I doubt it but we can always hope.

What do you think? I could say the same for you.

[mawilson 2,133]

Answer this question, we will spend billions if we do enforcement alone, what do we get for those billions?

Control over our borders and immigration flow. We also stand to save billions in the process.

It's quite simple: I ain't falling for the propaganda that the profiteers of illegal migration put out - essentially that capitulation is the only answer. I also do not fall for the propaganda that the profiteers of our broken health care system put out to scare America away from nationalized health care which would be much preferable to what we currently have. Besides being much less expensive. But we're being told that this would result in Communism or the worst health care system imaginable. Neither is true. Same goes for this amnesty nonsense.

Seen Sicko, have you?