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ok i'm not going to get in this one again, but i do have a question for dan.

i totally understand all of the reasoning for not wanting immigration "reform" amnasty.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

so why do you want amnasty? i really have tried to understand the amnasty point of view. i just don't get it.

For a lot of reasons, but some of them are too complex to put into a few words.

I'm concerned about the legality aspect of it, although it is a crime, its not a crime that directly impacts or harms another human being. Most religions have in their core values, compassion and forgiveness. I consider myself an atheist and dont follow any relgion, but I can see those values being important here.

Now to address your points

A lot of the arguments you make, would still apply even if we had no illegal immigrants. Poverty is at the root of those arguments, not illegal immigration. We will have people in poverty and working poor no matter how this issue finally resolves itself. And a poor person, is still going to cost us more than they contribute to the economy, illegal or not. Illegal immigrants have sort of become the scapegoat in the poverty issue.

We already have relatively low unemployment in this country. Unemployment numbers are never exact, some people are in life transitions, while others are highly skilled and can afford to wait for that one job to come along.

Crime you speak of is more of a result of poverty and we would still have it, even without illegal immigration.

Globalization has taken jobs and driven down wages too, oddly its mostly the liberals protesting that :P But that is an argument that could go either way, how much do we let the market control itself, and how much do we control the market. Businesses in the market will seek cheaper labor to drive down their costs and increase their profits. Do we as soceity, say that these jobs are for unskilled Americans and thus control the market, or tell these Americans to go to college if they want a better job, or otherwise they can compete against workers who are willing to work for less.

As far as taxes, although its an issue, I think the issue of corporations and wealthy individuals avoiding taxes with loopholes and tax havens is depriving the government of much more money than illegal immigrants do. If we are to spend money on this issue were we would get a much better return taking care of wealthy Americans and companies who are skirting the law, before we spend money on getting illegal immigrants to pay. Then the question comes in, are we going to spend more on auditing people, than we actually get in tax revenue from the audits.

Ok, thats your points, now for the other points.

It's much more practical to give amnesty and legalize. Besides the issue of cost with no or little benefit. We could just kick all 12 or 20 million people out, but then most of them would find a way back in, if not through the border with Mexico, they will come through on the coasts, or through Canada. As long as illegal immigrants are still cost effective as workers, you might even have some businesses paying to smuggle in workers. Enforcement of the scale needed to make an dent into this issue would require billions upon billions every single year. If you look at it from a fiscally responsible point of view (which is suppose to be conservatives strong suite) it doesn't make much sense.

Then there is the economic impact. This is much harder to quantify, because the system is so complex. While the direct impacts are easy to understand, the indirect impact is not. But in general, removing 12 million people as participants in the economic system, which cause ripple effects that will slow the economy, cause inflation, and may likely even affect your job. It will likely stabilize again in the future, but it could take several years if not a decade.

There is more but this is getting long, and most people are not going to read it.

keTiiDCjGVo

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Amnesty would not be something that would be ongoing. It would only be a one time thing, to grandfather in those already here.

That's what they said in 1986. :whistle:

Yup, but that act didn't really fix the problem. It granted amnesty with very no immigration options, and limited temporary work visa options. Are you surprised it didn't work? There were no legal options to deal with the demand, and there are people willing to risk their lives in immigrating illegally to the US.

The only way amnesty will work is allowing legal immigration by itself or through a work visa, and creating a general temporary work visa that isn't limited to one industry (Should also give the person the ability to switch employers if the employer wants to take advantage of them).

So we didn't get it right in 1986, whats wrong with trying again? The fact that we tried it once before is a pretty poor argument against trying it again. Many things don't come out right on the first try.

Yeah right, just keep trying over and over.

The first one had provisions for closing the border. That is why Reagan signed it. But the idiot dems in congress allowed the amnesty and didn't enforce the border. I for one do not trust either side to keep their word. Close the border now, enforce our laws and prove to me that they will keep their promises.

No it didn't, but it did have money to increase enforcement, and also created the I-9 form. It dealt with enforcement at the borders and enforcement through employment. So to use your argument, enforcement, we did that in 1986 and it didn't work why try it again?

We tried amnesty and it didn't work. We didn't do the enforcement. If you think we did your delusional. That is what we need to do now. No more amnesty!

Really?

Here is the 1986 bill your talking about, Part B: Improvement of Enforcement and Services

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d0...d099query.html|

We also have the act from 1996 that changed how deportations are handled, and how immigration status plays into other crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Immig...ity_Act_of_1996

I think you mean to say, we haven't done enforcement to the way you want it ( And we haven't done amnesty the way I want it). But we have certainly done and increased enforcement before.

We didn't do any of the enforcement. If we did we wouldn't have 20 million people here working illegally. How does it feel walking around with your eyes closed? No more amnesty!!

No matter how much I show you the error in your arguments or the bias and flaws in the polls or research you link. You will still believe that amnesty is not an option. Amnesty for illegal immigrants has become like the issue of gay marriage in that the opposition is less founded in fact and rather in faith or belief.

Personally i enjoy this, its fun taking an argument and researching and then finding its flaws.

Why do you keep telling me you are "showing me the errors in my judgment"? You haven't done anything but show your ignorance. Most Americans don't want amnesty. Poll after poll shows that. The fact that this immigration bill was killed was a direct result of the American people not wanting amnesty. Yet you keep clinging to the idea that your right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. NO MORE AMNESTY!!

About every time you have made an argument , I've have shown you in the law, or in the source, that your claims not accurate or they are biased (published by an organization that already has anti-amnesty aims).

But every time I do that, you either ignore it (or claim another interpretation), try to make another point, or resort to a personal attack.

Polls are useless, ask the right questions, and you can get the results to support your position. That goes for both sides. But that doesn't make them valid in a debate. Also, poll respondents can be underrepresented, because they can only get answers from people who own landlines and people who actually answer the phone when a pollster calls, rather than just ignore it due to caller id or hanging up.

So, show me facts, from organizations that are neutral to the issue, and you might have an argument other than a belief.

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Damn. I didn't think he was doing so well. But it is a FOX poll...

The latest Fox News poll has Rudy Giuliani still way out ahead.

Giuliani: 30%

McCain: 17%

Thompson: 15%

Gingrich: 8%

Romney: 8%

source

Dont you mean Faux? Hee hee.

<gary pulls out his rep crystal ball> Giuliani will probably get the rep nod. There is a lot I like about him, but there is also some I don't like. I do think he will be tough on terror but some of his other views make me stop and question him.

As far as Republican candidates go, I do like much of Giuliani stances. But then again it's far too early in the game for me to know yet...I bow before Gary's powers of the crystal ball.

Sorry, I don't want to derail this topic, but Peejay steven often interjects his views on illegal immigration global warming into just about every thread or post. :ot2:

there, much better now :D

Devilette, will you start a thread that is Amnesty vs. Global Warming, or shall I? :)

____________________________________

Done with USCIS until 12/28/2020!

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"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?" ~Gandhi

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About every time you have made an argument , I've have shown you in the law, or in the source, that your claims not accurate or they are biased (published by an organization that already has anti-amnesty aims).

But every time I do that, you either ignore it (or claim another interpretation), try to make another point, or resort to a personal attack.

Polls are useless, ask the right questions, and you can get the results to support your position. That goes for both sides. But that doesn't make them valid in a debate. Also, poll respondents can be underrepresented, because they can only get answers from people who own landlines and people who actually answer the phone when a pollster calls, rather than just ignore it due to caller id or hanging up.

So, show me facts, from organizations that are neutral to the issue, and you might have an argument other than a belief.

I can see it's useless to argue with you. You are describing yourself there. I have shown that you are in the minority on this one. You haven't given any evidence to back up anything you have said but yet you think you have "shown me the error in my judgment". Ok, have your delusions. The bottom line is this. The bill is dead. It is dead because a majority of Americans willed it to be dead. Argue with that if you can.

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About every time you have made an argument , I've have shown you in the law, or in the source, that your claims not accurate or they are biased (published by an organization that already has anti-amnesty aims).

But every time I do that, you either ignore it (or claim another interpretation), try to make another point, or resort to a personal attack.

Polls are useless, ask the right questions, and you can get the results to support your position. That goes for both sides. But that doesn't make them valid in a debate. Also, poll respondents can be underrepresented, because they can only get answers from people who own landlines and people who actually answer the phone when a pollster calls, rather than just ignore it due to caller id or hanging up.

So, show me facts, from organizations that are neutral to the issue, and you might have an argument other than a belief.

I can see it's useless to argue with you. You are describing yourself there. I have shown that you are in the minority on this one. You haven't given any evidence to back up anything you have said but yet you think you have "shown me the error in my judgment". Ok, have your delusions. The bottom line is this. The bill is dead. It is dead because a majority of Americans willed it to be dead. Argue with that if you can.

Well you guys just go ahead debate on politics. Luz and I are going to go shopping. Aren't we Luz ? :whistle:

-Gemvita

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About every time you have made an argument , I've have shown you in the law, or in the source, that your claims not accurate or they are biased (published by an organization that already has anti-amnesty aims).

But every time I do that, you either ignore it (or claim another interpretation), try to make another point, or resort to a personal attack.

Polls are useless, ask the right questions, and you can get the results to support your position. That goes for both sides. But that doesn't make them valid in a debate. Also, poll respondents can be underrepresented, because they can only get answers from people who own landlines and people who actually answer the phone when a pollster calls, rather than just ignore it due to caller id or hanging up.

So, show me facts, from organizations that are neutral to the issue, and you might have an argument other than a belief.

I can see it's useless to argue with you. You are describing yourself there. I have shown that you are in the minority on this one. You haven't given any evidence to back up anything you have said but yet you think you have "shown me the error in my judgment". Ok, have your delusions. The bottom line is this. The bill is dead. It is dead because a majority of Americans willed it to be dead. Argue with that if you can.

Well you guys just go ahead debate on politics. Luz and I are going to go shopping. Aren't we Luz ? :whistle:

-Gemvita

I agree that polls are often loaded to give skewed results. That said...I saw interview after interview from Senators that stated that their constituents that contacted their offices concerning the Bush/McKennedy blanket amnesty were were against it by a landslide. I never once saw an interview where a Senator stated that their constituents overwhelmingly were in favor of mass amnesty. This is hardly scientific...but it is quite telling. I think it shows quite accurately that the American people that took the time to contact their elected representatives (as I did) were overwhelmingly against rewarding illegal aliens with amnesty.

Many of these Senators would very much like to jump on the Big Business / Corporate America / Multinational Globalist bandwagon to fill their campaign coffers, but they knew damned good and well that they would get booted at the end of their term. No wonder this rotten legislation was conceived in secret behind closed doors and the leadership tried to get it shoved through quickly without debate.

Secrecy is corruption's best friend. The American people won this time around, but you can rest assured the corrupt will try to sneak it by again when the dust dies down.

"Credibility in immigration policy can be summed up in one sentence: Those who should get in, get in; those who should be kept out, are kept out; and those who should not be here will be required to leave."

"...for the system to be credible, people actually have to be deported at the end of the process."

US Congresswoman Barbara Jordan (D-TX)

Testimony to the House Immigration Subcommittee, February 24, 1995

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I agree that polls are often loaded to give skewed results. That said...I saw interview after interview from Senators that stated that their constituents that contacted their offices concerning the Bush/McKennedy blanket amnesty were were against it by a landslide. I never once saw an interview where a Senator stated that their constituents overwhelmingly were in favor of mass amnesty. This is hardly scientific...but it is quite telling. I think it shows quite accurately that the American people that took the time to contact their elected representatives (as I did) were overwhelmingly against rewarding illegal aliens with amnesty.

I think that's about right. There just wasn't much support for the amnesty - some tolerance of it maybe but not support. Yet there was very clear opposition to it. The opposition outweighed the support which caused this bill to die.

I actually think that the illegal crowd itself is largely responsible for the failure of the bill. Their demonstrations for their supposed rights in the early days - foreign flags and all - has mobilized America to take a stand and let those guys know that about the only right they have is to take a hike.

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ok i'm not going to get in this one again, but i do have a question for dan.

i totally understand all of the reasoning for not wanting immigration "reform" amnasty.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

so why do you want amnasty? i really have tried to understand the amnasty point of view. i just don't get it.

For a lot of reasons, but some of them are too complex to put into a few words.

I'm concerned about the legality aspect of it, although it is a crime, its not a crime that directly impacts or harms another human being. Most religions have in their core values, compassion and forgiveness. I consider myself an atheist and dont follow any relgion, but I can see those values being important here.

Now to address your points

A lot of the arguments you make, would still apply even if we had no illegal immigrants. Poverty is at the root of those arguments, not illegal immigration. We will have people in poverty and working poor no matter how this issue finally resolves itself. And a poor person, is still going to cost us more than they contribute to the economy, illegal or not. Illegal immigrants have sort of become the scapegoat in the poverty issue.

We already have relatively low unemployment in this country. Unemployment numbers are never exact, some people are in life transitions, while others are highly skilled and can afford to wait for that one job to come along.

Crime you speak of is more of a result of poverty and we would still have it, even without illegal immigration.

Globalization has taken jobs and driven down wages too, oddly its mostly the liberals protesting that :P But that is an argument that could go either way, how much do we let the market control itself, and how much do we control the market. Businesses in the market will seek cheaper labor to drive down their costs and increase their profits. Do we as soceity, say that these jobs are for unskilled Americans and thus control the market, or tell these Americans to go to college if they want a better job, or otherwise they can compete against workers who are willing to work for less.

As far as taxes, although its an issue, I think the issue of corporations and wealthy individuals avoiding taxes with loopholes and tax havens is depriving the government of much more money than illegal immigrants do. If we are to spend money on this issue were we would get a much better return taking care of wealthy Americans and companies who are skirting the law, before we spend money on getting illegal immigrants to pay. Then the question comes in, are we going to spend more on auditing people, than we actually get in tax revenue from the audits.

Ok, thats your points, now for the other points.

It's much more practical to give amnesty and legalize. Besides the issue of cost with no or little benefit. We could just kick all 12 or 20 million people out, but then most of them would find a way back in, if not through the border with Mexico, they will come through on the coasts, or through Canada. As long as illegal immigrants are still cost effective as workers, you might even have some businesses paying to smuggle in workers. Enforcement of the scale needed to make an dent into this issue would require billions upon billions every single year. If you look at it from a fiscally responsible point of view (which is suppose to be conservatives strong suite) it doesn't make much sense.

Then there is the economic impact. This is much harder to quantify, because the system is so complex. While the direct impacts are easy to understand, the indirect impact is not. But in general, removing 12 million people as participants in the economic system, which cause ripple effects that will slow the economy, cause inflation, and may likely even affect your job. It will likely stabilize again in the future, but it could take several years if not a decade.

There is more but this is getting long, and most people are not going to read it.

ok so you have no reason for your point of view. and YES, illegall immigration effects every single one of the points i stated.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

please answer the question. why do you want amnasty?

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ok i'm not going to get in this one again, but i do have a question for dan.

i totally understand all of the reasoning for not wanting immigration "reform" amnasty.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

so why do you want amnasty? i really have tried to understand the amnasty point of view. i just don't get it.

For a lot of reasons, but some of them are too complex to put into a few words.

I'm concerned about the legality aspect of it, although it is a crime, its not a crime that directly impacts or harms another human being. Most religions have in their core values, compassion and forgiveness. I consider myself an atheist and dont follow any relgion, but I can see those values being important here.

Now to address your points

A lot of the arguments you make, would still apply even if we had no illegal immigrants. Poverty is at the root of those arguments, not illegal immigration. We will have people in poverty and working poor no matter how this issue finally resolves itself. And a poor person, is still going to cost us more than they contribute to the economy, illegal or not. Illegal immigrants have sort of become the scapegoat in the poverty issue.

We already have relatively low unemployment in this country. Unemployment numbers are never exact, some people are in life transitions, while others are highly skilled and can afford to wait for that one job to come along.

Crime you speak of is more of a result of poverty and we would still have it, even without illegal immigration.

Globalization has taken jobs and driven down wages too, oddly its mostly the liberals protesting that :P But that is an argument that could go either way, how much do we let the market control itself, and how much do we control the market. Businesses in the market will seek cheaper labor to drive down their costs and increase their profits. Do we as soceity, say that these jobs are for unskilled Americans and thus control the market, or tell these Americans to go to college if they want a better job, or otherwise they can compete against workers who are willing to work for less.

As far as taxes, although its an issue, I think the issue of corporations and wealthy individuals avoiding taxes with loopholes and tax havens is depriving the government of much more money than illegal immigrants do. If we are to spend money on this issue were we would get a much better return taking care of wealthy Americans and companies who are skirting the law, before we spend money on getting illegal immigrants to pay. Then the question comes in, are we going to spend more on auditing people, than we actually get in tax revenue from the audits.

Ok, thats your points, now for the other points.

It's much more practical to give amnesty and legalize. Besides the issue of cost with no or little benefit. We could just kick all 12 or 20 million people out, but then most of them would find a way back in, if not through the border with Mexico, they will come through on the coasts, or through Canada. As long as illegal immigrants are still cost effective as workers, you might even have some businesses paying to smuggle in workers. Enforcement of the scale needed to make an dent into this issue would require billions upon billions every single year. If you look at it from a fiscally responsible point of view (which is suppose to be conservatives strong suite) it doesn't make much sense.

Then there is the economic impact. This is much harder to quantify, because the system is so complex. While the direct impacts are easy to understand, the indirect impact is not. But in general, removing 12 million people as participants in the economic system, which cause ripple effects that will slow the economy, cause inflation, and may likely even affect your job. It will likely stabilize again in the future, but it could take several years if not a decade.

There is more but this is getting long, and most people are not going to read it.

ok so you have no reason for your point of view. and YES, illegall immigration effects every single one of the points i stated.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

please answer the question. why do you want amnasty?

You didn't read it did you? Your just going to keep stating your points, and hope i believe them. So let me ask you to justify your points.

Many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

Is that a problem? Go to college and get a better job? Or do we protect those who want to be lazy?

They drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

And create jobs in other sectors?

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

they are driving up unemployment & welfare. and If they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

Even with many illegal immigrants working we still have a relatively low unemployment rate, 4.8%, so exactly how are they driving it up? Most illegals cant get welfare, or are you talking about driving it up for the people being put out of work? In which case, go to school?

Its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

So a argument about life not being fair, sorry this argument is pretty stupid.

The bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

While that is in dispute, since in some places its actually driven down crime. But considering most illegals are poor, doing you think the fact that they are poor is more of a factor or that they are illegal is?

keTiiDCjGVo

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About every time you have made an argument , I've have shown you in the law, or in the source, that your claims not accurate or they are biased (published by an organization that already has anti-amnesty aims).

But every time I do that, you either ignore it (or claim another interpretation), try to make another point, or resort to a personal attack.

Polls are useless, ask the right questions, and you can get the results to support your position. That goes for both sides. But that doesn't make them valid in a debate. Also, poll respondents can be underrepresented, because they can only get answers from people who own landlines and people who actually answer the phone when a pollster calls, rather than just ignore it due to caller id or hanging up.

So, show me facts, from organizations that are neutral to the issue, and you might have an argument other than a belief.

I can see it's useless to argue with you. You are describing yourself there. I have shown that you are in the minority on this one. You haven't given any evidence to back up anything you have said but yet you think you have "shown me the error in my judgment". Ok, have your delusions. The bottom line is this. The bill is dead. It is dead because a majority of Americans willed it to be dead. Argue with that if you can.

Well you guys just go ahead debate on politics. Luz and I are going to go shopping. Aren't we Luz ? :whistle:

-Gemvita

I agree that polls are often loaded to give skewed results. That said...I saw interview after interview from Senators that stated that their constituents that contacted their offices concerning the Bush/McKennedy blanket amnesty were were against it by a landslide. I never once saw an interview where a Senator stated that their constituents overwhelmingly were in favor of mass amnesty. This is hardly scientific...but it is quite telling. I think it shows quite accurately that the American people that took the time to contact their elected representatives (as I did) were overwhelmingly against rewarding illegal aliens with amnesty.

Many of these Senators would very much like to jump on the Big Business / Corporate America / Multinational Globalist bandwagon to fill their campaign coffers, but they knew damned good and well that they would get booted at the end of their term. No wonder this rotten legislation was conceived in secret behind closed doors and the leadership tried to get it shoved through quickly without debate.

Secrecy is corruption's best friend. The American people won this time around, but you can rest assured the corrupt will try to sneak it by again when the dust dies down.

And the argument could be made that the minority is much more vocal or the senators were already on the side of anti-amnesty, and didn't disclose the calls in support of the bill. Even that is pretty flawed as a measure of support or not.

I don't pretend to know which position is in the minority or majority. But i don't think being in the minority makes an argument any less valid or being in the majority any more right. The majority supported the Iraq war, and look where that got us.

keTiiDCjGVo

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ok i'm not going to get in this one again, but i do have a question for dan.

i totally understand all of the reasoning for not wanting immigration "reform" amnasty.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

so why do you want amnasty? i really have tried to understand the amnasty point of view. i just don't get it.

For a lot of reasons, but some of them are too complex to put into a few words.

I'm concerned about the legality aspect of it, although it is a crime, its not a crime that directly impacts or harms another human being. Most religions have in their core values, compassion and forgiveness. I consider myself an atheist and dont follow any relgion, but I can see those values being important here.

Now to address your points

A lot of the arguments you make, would still apply even if we had no illegal immigrants. Poverty is at the root of those arguments, not illegal immigration. We will have people in poverty and working poor no matter how this issue finally resolves itself. And a poor person, is still going to cost us more than they contribute to the economy, illegal or not. Illegal immigrants have sort of become the scapegoat in the poverty issue.

We already have relatively low unemployment in this country. Unemployment numbers are never exact, some people are in life transitions, while others are highly skilled and can afford to wait for that one job to come along.

Crime you speak of is more of a result of poverty and we would still have it, even without illegal immigration.

Globalization has taken jobs and driven down wages too, oddly its mostly the liberals protesting that :P But that is an argument that could go either way, how much do we let the market control itself, and how much do we control the market. Businesses in the market will seek cheaper labor to drive down their costs and increase their profits. Do we as soceity, say that these jobs are for unskilled Americans and thus control the market, or tell these Americans to go to college if they want a better job, or otherwise they can compete against workers who are willing to work for less.

As far as taxes, although its an issue, I think the issue of corporations and wealthy individuals avoiding taxes with loopholes and tax havens is depriving the government of much more money than illegal immigrants do. If we are to spend money on this issue were we would get a much better return taking care of wealthy Americans and companies who are skirting the law, before we spend money on getting illegal immigrants to pay. Then the question comes in, are we going to spend more on auditing people, than we actually get in tax revenue from the audits.

Ok, thats your points, now for the other points.

It's much more practical to give amnesty and legalize. Besides the issue of cost with no or little benefit. We could just kick all 12 or 20 million people out, but then most of them would find a way back in, if not through the border with Mexico, they will come through on the coasts, or through Canada. As long as illegal immigrants are still cost effective as workers, you might even have some businesses paying to smuggle in workers. Enforcement of the scale needed to make an dent into this issue would require billions upon billions every single year. If you look at it from a fiscally responsible point of view (which is suppose to be conservatives strong suite) it doesn't make much sense.

Then there is the economic impact. This is much harder to quantify, because the system is so complex. While the direct impacts are easy to understand, the indirect impact is not. But in general, removing 12 million people as participants in the economic system, which cause ripple effects that will slow the economy, cause inflation, and may likely even affect your job. It will likely stabilize again in the future, but it could take several years if not a decade.

There is more but this is getting long, and most people are not going to read it.

ok so you have no reason for your point of view. and YES, illegall immigration effects every single one of the points i stated.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

please answer the question. why do you want amnasty?

You didn't read it did you? Your just going to keep stating your points, and hope i believe them. So let me ask you to justify your points.

Many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

Is that a problem? Go to college and get a better job? Or do we protect those who want to be lazy?

They drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

And create jobs in other sectors?

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

they are driving up unemployment & welfare. and If they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

Even with many illegal immigrants working we still have a relatively low unemployment rate, 4.8%, so exactly how are they driving it up? Most illegals cant get welfare, or are you talking about driving it up for the people being put out of work? In which case, go to school?

Its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

So a argument about life not being fair, sorry this argument is pretty stupid.

The bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

While that is in dispute, since in some places its actually driven down crime. But considering most illegals are poor, doing you think the fact that they are poor is more of a factor or that they are illegal is?

this is not an answer:For a lot of reasons, but some of them are too complex to put into a few words.

I'm concerned about the legality aspect of it, although it is a crime, its not a crime that directly impacts or harms another human being. Most religions have in their core values, compassion and forgiveness. I consider myself an atheist and dont follow any relgion, but I can see those values being important here.

Many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

Is that a problem? Go to college and get a better job? Or do we protect those who want to be lazy?

we should protect all americans & their ability to provide for their family, regardless of education.

lack of a collage degree does not make someone lazy.

They drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

And create jobs in other sectors?

what sectors do you propose?

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

i am concerned about both. but, not willing say its ok on either side. it harms the person or persons estate (if deceased).

by making them pay to get their id cleared & taxes fixed at the end of the year.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare. and If they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

Even with many illegal immigrants working we still have a relatively low unemployment rate, 4.8%, so exactly how are they driving it up? Most illegals cant get welfare, or are you talking about driving it up for the people being put out of work? In which case, go to school?

unemplyment would be even lower if the jobs were there for american citizens. by illeagals in those jobs, it is putting people out of work..on to assistance programs. if they do get amnasty, they will be elligible for assistance also.

b]Its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.[/b]

So a argument about life not being fair, sorry this argument is pretty stupid.

yes it is stupid. but the argument that they are tring to better their lives by comming to the us illegally; is the same stupid argument.

The bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

While that is in dispute, since in some places its actually driven down crime. But considering most illegals are poor, doing you think the fact that they are poor is more of a factor or that they are illegal is?

this is a general statement. not 1 neighborhood in 1 city.

This is how you answer a question, now why don't you try it.

WHY DO YOU WANT AMNASTY?

BTW: who's going to pay for all this school?

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