Giuliani cites Glasgow attack in call for immigration policy

[Dan J 277]

The poll is bogus. Push polling is a dishonest thing and that is what you are sighting. Most Americans don't want amnesty for illegals. Spin it all you want, your in the minority.

Where's the spin, Gary? Look at the questions Americans were asked? What's your criteria for how you decide a poll is bogus or not? What question should they have asked?

the questions left a lot to be desired. very misleading and not informative in the query.

1st question ...

would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?

Isn't there a program like this already? Is this for an additional program? Was this mentioned in the query?

see post:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1021612

There is, but its limited to certain industries and mostly only useful for seasonal work (Can be used for the maximum of year). And employees are limited to be with one employer or go home which has lead to some abuses, such as paying workers way below minimum wage.

H-2A is for temporary agriculture work and H-2B (Capped at 66,000 per year) is for other temporary work. Which is not adequate otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[natty bumppo 297]

The poll is bogus. Push polling is a dishonest thing and that is what you are sighting. Most Americans don't want amnesty for illegals. Spin it all you want, your in the minority.

Where's the spin, Gary? Look at the questions Americans were asked? What's your criteria for how you decide a poll is bogus or not? What question should they have asked?

the questions left a lot to be desired. very misleading and not informative in the query.

1st question ...

would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?

Isn't there a program like this already? Is this for an additional program? Was this mentioned in the query?

see post:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1021612

There is, but its limited to certain industries and mostly only useful for seasonal work (Can be used for the maximum of year). And employees are limited to be with one employer or go home which has lead to some abuses, such as paying workers way below minimum wage.

H-2A is for temporary agriculture work and H-2B (Capped at 66,000 per year) is for other temporary work. Which is not adequate otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

so anotherwords ... the question asks if the person is in favor of something we already have.

[GaryC 7]

The poll is bogus. Push polling is a dishonest thing and that is what you are sighting. Most Americans don't want amnesty for illegals. Spin it all you want, your in the minority.

Where's the spin, Gary? Look at the questions Americans were asked? What's your criteria for how you decide a poll is bogus or not? What question should they have asked?

the questions left a lot to be desired. very misleading and not informative in the query.

1st question ...

would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?

Isn't there a program like this already? Is this for an additional program? Was this mentioned in the query?

see post:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1021612

There is, but its limited to certain industries and mostly only useful for seasonal work (Can be used for the maximum of year). And employees are limited to be with one employer or go home which has lead to some abuses, such as paying workers way below minimum wage.

H-2A is for temporary agriculture work and H-2B (Capped at 66,000 per year) is for other temporary work. Which is not adequate otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What do you think is "adequate'? Anyone that wants to come in? Totally bogus. NO MORE AMNESTY!!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

November 21, 2006 - Let Illegal Immigrants Become Citizens, U.S. Voters Tell Quinnipiac University National Poll; But Do More To Tighten The Borders, Voters Say

By a 69 - 27 percent margin, American voters say illegal immigrants should be allowed into a guest worker program with the ability to work toward citizenship over a period of several years, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

Republicans support the guest worker to citizenship path 66 - 31 percent, while Democrats back it 73 - 23 percent and independent voters back it 71 - 24 percent, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds.

Building a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexican border is "enough for now," 24 percent of voters say, but 71 percent say, "additional measures are needed from Congress to deal with illegal immigrants entering the country."

...

The Quinnipiac University Poll, directed by Douglas Schwartz, Ph.D., conducts public opinion surveys in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio and nationwide as a public service and for research. More data at www.quinnipiac.edu and click on Institutes and Centers, or call (203) 582-5201

...

Gary, I don't know what part of the Zogby Poll you've looked at, but I don't see anything on Zogby's site that indicates Americans are clearly against offering work visas for the millions of illegals.

Here's what I did find...

Deportation Not Backed by Majority

Despite the public's negative views of illegal immigrants, Americans do not overwhelmingly embrace deportation as a solution. While it is the single most popular means of dealing with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants currently in the country, just 37% back outright deportation as a solution, while another 11% favor deporting illegal immigrants if they commit any crimes. Slightly more than one in four respondents, meanwhile, believe they should be allowed to stay if they have jobs and pass background checks.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1328

...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that if the majority are not in favor of deporting the ones that are already here, the only reasonable solution is to offer them temporary legal status for those who are working.

That's not spin...that's using logic.

Edited July 2, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Dan J 277]

The poll is bogus. Push polling is a dishonest thing and that is what you are sighting. Most Americans don't want amnesty for illegals. Spin it all you want, your in the minority.

Where's the spin, Gary? Look at the questions Americans were asked? What's your criteria for how you decide a poll is bogus or not? What question should they have asked?

the questions left a lot to be desired. very misleading and not informative in the query.

1st question ...

would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?

Isn't there a program like this already? Is this for an additional program? Was this mentioned in the query?

see post:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1021612

There is, but its limited to certain industries and mostly only useful for seasonal work (Can be used for the maximum of year). And employees are limited to be with one employer or go home which has lead to some abuses, such as paying workers way below minimum wage.

H-2A is for temporary agriculture work and H-2B (Capped at 66,000 per year) is for other temporary work. Which is not adequate otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

so anotherwords ... the question asks if the person is in favor of something we already have.

No, the proposed guest worker programs have much higher caps, no industry restrictions, and the ability to stay in the US for a longer period of time.

[Dan J 277]

Amnesty would not be something that would be ongoing. It would only be a one time thing, to grandfather in those already here.

That's what they said in 1986.

Yup, but that act didn't really fix the problem. It granted amnesty with very no immigration options, and limited temporary work visa options. Are you surprised it didn't work? There were no legal options to deal with the demand, and there are people willing to risk their lives in immigrating illegally to the US.

The only way amnesty will work is allowing legal immigration by itself or through a work visa, and creating a general temporary work visa that isn't limited to one industry (Should also give the person the ability to switch employers if the employer wants to take advantage of them).

So we didn't get it right in 1986, whats wrong with trying again? The fact that we tried it once before is a pretty poor argument against trying it again. Many things don't come out right on the first try.

Yeah right, just keep trying over and over.

The first one had provisions for closing the border. That is why Reagan signed it. But the idiot dems in congress allowed the amnesty and didn't enforce the border. I for one do not trust either side to keep their word. Close the border now, enforce our laws and prove to me that they will keep their promises.

No it didn't, but it did have money to increase enforcement, and also created the I-9 form. It dealt with enforcement at the borders and enforcement through employment. So to use your argument, enforcement, we did that in 1986 and it didn't work why try it again?

We tried amnesty and it didn't work. We didn't do the enforcement. If you think we did your delusional. That is what we need to do now. No more amnesty!

Really?

Here is the 1986 bill your talking about, Part B: Improvement of Enforcement and Services

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d0...d099query.html|

We also have the act from 1996 that changed how deportations are handled, and how immigration status plays into other crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Immig...ity_Act_of_1996

I think you mean to say, we haven't done enforcement to the way you want it ( And we haven't done amnesty the way I want it). But we have certainly done and increased enforcement before.

We didn't do any of the enforcement. If we did we wouldn't have 20 million people here working illegally. How does it feel walking around with your eyes closed? No more amnesty!!

No matter how much I show you the error in your arguments or the bias and flaws in the polls or research you link. You will still believe that amnesty is not an option. Amnesty for illegal immigrants has become like the issue of gay marriage in that the opposition is less founded in fact and rather in faith or belief.

Personally i enjoy this, its fun taking an argument and researching and then finding its flaws.

[natty bumppo 297]

The poll is bogus. Push polling is a dishonest thing and that is what you are sighting. Most Americans don't want amnesty for illegals. Spin it all you want, your in the minority.

Where's the spin, Gary? Look at the questions Americans were asked? What's your criteria for how you decide a poll is bogus or not? What question should they have asked?

the questions left a lot to be desired. very misleading and not informative in the query.

1st question ...

would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?

Isn't there a program like this already? Is this for an additional program? Was this mentioned in the query?

see post:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1021612

There is, but its limited to certain industries and mostly only useful for seasonal work (Can be used for the maximum of year). And employees are limited to be with one employer or go home which has lead to some abuses, such as paying workers way below minimum wage.

H-2A is for temporary agriculture work and H-2B (Capped at 66,000 per year) is for other temporary work. Which is not adequate otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What do you think is "adequate'? Anyone that wants to come in? Totally bogus. NO MORE AMNESTY!!

The USA and the USCitizens have the right to say NO. We can set limits to only permit "X" numbers of persons into the US each year for "Y" number of days in a guest worker program. This is our right.

Should people from other countries not like this action ... too bad. They can move to a different country or stay home.

At some point NO needs to mean NO.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The poll is bogus. Push polling is a dishonest thing and that is what you are sighting. Most Americans don't want amnesty for illegals. Spin it all you want, your in the minority.

Where's the spin, Gary? Look at the questions Americans were asked? What's your criteria for how you decide a poll is bogus or not? What question should they have asked?

the questions left a lot to be desired. very misleading and not informative in the query.

1st question ...

would you favor or oppose a guest worker program?

Isn't there a program like this already? Is this for an additional program? Was this mentioned in the query?

see post:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1021612

There is, but its limited to certain industries and mostly only useful for seasonal work (Can be used for the maximum of year). And employees are limited to be with one employer or go home which has lead to some abuses, such as paying workers way below minimum wage.

H-2A is for temporary agriculture work and H-2B (Capped at 66,000 per year) is for other temporary work. Which is not adequate otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You still haven't addressed what "adequate" actually means in light of the number of people wanting to come to this country vs. what this coutry can reasonably absorb. Any way you slice it, the vast majority of intending immigrants or guest workers would always be left behind no matter how many visas and visa types you make available. It's simply never going to be "adequate" if "adequate" is to mean sufficient.

[smoke20 0]

I think you mean to say, we haven't done enforcement to the way you want it ( And we haven't done amnesty the way I want it). But we have certainly done and increased enforcement before.

ok i'm not going to get in this one again, but i do have a question for dan.

i totally understand all of the reasoning for not wanting immigration "reform" amnasty.

they're here illegally. and laughing in our faces about it.

many are taking non skill jobs-that kids out of high school & unskilled americans use to do.

they drive down wages (mainly construction & agriculture)

most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

they are driving up unemployment & welfare.

if they get amnasty they will further drive up unemployment & welfare.

its a slap in the face to all who have immigrated to the US legally.

the bad element of illegals has driven up crime (drugs,gangs, violenc, etc.)

so why do you want amnasty? i really have tried to understand the amnasty point of view. i just don't get it.

[GaryC 7]

Amnesty would not be something that would be ongoing. It would only be a one time thing, to grandfather in those already here.

That's what they said in 1986.

Yup, but that act didn't really fix the problem. It granted amnesty with very no immigration options, and limited temporary work visa options. Are you surprised it didn't work? There were no legal options to deal with the demand, and there are people willing to risk their lives in immigrating illegally to the US.

The only way amnesty will work is allowing legal immigration by itself or through a work visa, and creating a general temporary work visa that isn't limited to one industry (Should also give the person the ability to switch employers if the employer wants to take advantage of them).

So we didn't get it right in 1986, whats wrong with trying again? The fact that we tried it once before is a pretty poor argument against trying it again. Many things don't come out right on the first try.

Yeah right, just keep trying over and over.

The first one had provisions for closing the border. That is why Reagan signed it. But the idiot dems in congress allowed the amnesty and didn't enforce the border. I for one do not trust either side to keep their word. Close the border now, enforce our laws and prove to me that they will keep their promises.

No it didn't, but it did have money to increase enforcement, and also created the I-9 form. It dealt with enforcement at the borders and enforcement through employment. So to use your argument, enforcement, we did that in 1986 and it didn't work why try it again?

We tried amnesty and it didn't work. We didn't do the enforcement. If you think we did your delusional. That is what we need to do now. No more amnesty!

Really?

Here is the 1986 bill your talking about, Part B: Improvement of Enforcement and Services

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d0...d099query.html|

We also have the act from 1996 that changed how deportations are handled, and how immigration status plays into other crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Immig...ity_Act_of_1996

I think you mean to say, we haven't done enforcement to the way you want it ( And we haven't done amnesty the way I want it). But we have certainly done and increased enforcement before.

We didn't do any of the enforcement. If we did we wouldn't have 20 million people here working illegally. How does it feel walking around with your eyes closed? No more amnesty!!

No matter how much I show you the error in your arguments or the bias and flaws in the polls or research you link. You will still believe that amnesty is not an option. Amnesty for illegal immigrants has become like the issue of gay marriage in that the opposition is less founded in fact and rather in faith or belief.

Personally i enjoy this, its fun taking an argument and researching and then finding its flaws.

Why do you keep telling me you are "showing me the errors in my judgment"? You haven't done anything but show your ignorance. Most Americans don't want amnesty. Poll after poll shows that. The fact that this immigration bill was killed was a direct result of the American people not wanting amnesty. Yet you keep clinging to the idea that your right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. NO MORE AMNESTY!!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The USA and the USCitizens have the right to say NO. We can set limits to only permit "X" numbers of persons into the US each year for "Y" number of days in a guest worker program. This is our right.

Should people from other countries not like this action ... too bad. They can move to a different country or stay home.

At some point NO needs to mean NO.

We did that. There are caps in place. Yet you seem to want to reward foreign nationals that disregarded those caps. We said NO and they did not listen. They won't down the road either. Saying NO is not going to be enough. To make sure that NO means NO, we ought to help them find the way back to the door. Otherwise, there will be no credibility and they will laugh at the next NO just as they have at the last.

[GaryC 7]

November 21, 2006 - Let Illegal Immigrants Become Citizens, U.S. Voters Tell Quinnipiac University National Poll; But Do More To Tighten The Borders, Voters Say

By a 69 - 27 percent margin, American voters say illegal immigrants should be allowed into a guest worker program with the ability to work toward citizenship over a period of several years, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

Republicans support the guest worker to citizenship path 66 - 31 percent, while Democrats back it 73 - 23 percent and independent voters back it 71 - 24 percent, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds.

Building a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexican border is "enough for now," 24 percent of voters say, but 71 percent say, "additional measures are needed from Congress to deal with illegal immigrants entering the country."

...

The Quinnipiac University Poll, directed by Douglas Schwartz, Ph.D., conducts public opinion surveys in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio and nationwide as a public service and for research. More data at www.quinnipiac.edu and click on Institutes and Centers, or call (203) 582-5201

...

Gary, I don't know what part of the Zogby Poll you've looked at, but I don't see anything on Zogby's site that indicates Americans are clearly against offering work visas for the millions of illegals.

Here's what I did find...

Deportation Not Backed by Majority

Despite the public's negative views of illegal immigrants, Americans do not overwhelmingly embrace deportation as a solution. While it is the single most popular means of dealing with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants currently in the country, just 37% back outright deportation as a solution, while another 11% favor deporting illegal immigrants if they commit any crimes. Slightly more than one in four respondents, meanwhile, believe they should be allowed to stay if they have jobs and pass background checks.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1328

...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that if the majority are not in favor of deporting the ones that are already here, the only reasonable solution is to offer them temporary legal status for those who are working.

That's not spin...that's using logic.

I show you a Zogby and a Rasussen poll and you show me a NYTimes and a poll from some college. Who do you think is better at getting to the truth? I think you know. And did you read what you pasted there?

Slightly more than one in four respondents, meanwhile, believe they should be allowed to stay if they have jobs and pass background checks.

You shot yourself in the foot there. Only 25% want the illegals to stay. Thanks for proving my point.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

No matter how much I show you the error in your arguments or the bias and flaws in the polls or research you link.

Every major news outlet recognizes that:

But the bill's enemies simply had the votes and, according to polls, the support of the public. ABC

You're in the minority with your desire to grant amnesty to those that chose to take matters out of our hands and into their own. People don't like to be dictated what to do by a foreign flag waving mob that has shown nothing but contempt for our laws.

[natty bumppo 297]

The USA and the USCitizens have the right to say NO. We can set limits to only permit "X" numbers of persons into the US each year for "Y" number of days in a guest worker program. This is our right.

Should people from other countries not like this action ... too bad. They can move to a different country or stay home.

At some point NO needs to mean NO.

We did that. There are caps in place. Yet you seem to want to reward foreign nationals that disregarded those caps. We said NO and they did not listen. They won't down the road either. Saying NO is not going to be enough. To make sure that NO means NO, we ought to help them find the way back to the door. Otherwise, there will be no credibility and they will laugh at the next NO just as they have at the last.

ET ... I'm with you. I want them gone too.

I've also said before that we need to encourage them to the exit and/or "escort" the illegals back to their home country.

Sorry ... didn't say quite enough on the last post. Thanks for expanding it.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The USA and the USCitizens have the right to say NO. We can set limits to only permit "X" numbers of persons into the US each year for "Y" number of days in a guest worker program. This is our right.

Should people from other countries not like this action ... too bad. They can move to a different country or stay home.

At some point NO needs to mean NO.

We did that. There are caps in place. Yet you some seem to want to reward foreign nationals that disregarded those caps. We said NO and they did not listen. They won't down the road either. Saying NO is not going to be enough. To make sure that NO means NO, we ought to help them find the way back to the door. Otherwise, there will be no credibility and they will laugh at the next NO just as they have at the last.

ET ... I'm with you. I want them gone too.

I've also said before that we need to encourage them to the exit and/or "escort" the illegals back to their home country.

Sorry ... didn't say quite enough on the last post. Thanks for expanding it.

Actually, I noticed that I worded my response incorrectly. I fixed it.