Giuliani cites Glasgow attack in call for immigration policy

[Dan J 277]

Ok gary, let me explain this to you in simpler terms, We have 37 million people in poverty in this country. Our population is around 300 million, which puts about 12% of our population in poverty. Ok, lets say we do have 20 million illegal immigrants, 19 million of them are in poverty. There is no indication that our poverty rate will change overall after we deport 20 million illegal immigrants so we are left with a vacuum. Which means we will have about 33.6 million people in poverty after population decreased to 280 million. Previous to the Exodus, we have 18 million (37 million - 19 million) Americans in poverty. Afterwards well we are left with a difference 15.6 million, which unless you solve poverty, Gary, it will be filled by citizens and LPR's.

There is no indication that in anyway the poverty rate will change, we will still have low paying jobs, just now americans will be the ones to do them. Sure wages will increase a bit, but its unlikely to increase to the pay that would be necessary for your argument to work. And even if it did, the poverty ceiling, will go up with it.

You can make $100,000 per year, but if everyone else is making more than you, your screwed. Even though from our current economic perspective that looks good.

My God who taught you economics??? That is the biggest load of BS since my grand-dad fertilized the corn field!!! You have been to your SO's country right? That is what a country looks like with the majority of people that are poor. Now look at any developed country. Do you see a difference? It's because there are fewer poor people!!! If we took the illegals out of our country we benefit in two ways. We no longer have to pay for their upkeep and the money they send home stays here. Those that are above them don't sink to poverty. That is the looniest thing I have ever heard of!!! It just shows how you are grasping at straws to support your position. I no longer take you seriously. :lol: :lol:

So you are arguing that poor people coming into the US increases the poverty rate, and them leaving will decrease it?

Let me see what your explanation is for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poverty_59_to_05.png

We have had a poverty rate that has hovered around 10-15% since 1965. And my SO's country the rate is 18%, or about the same as the UK. While many more would be in poverty by US standards, by Indonesian standards not so much.

[GaryC 7]

Ok gary, let me explain this to you in simpler terms, We have 37 million people in poverty in this country. Our population is around 300 million, which puts about 12% of our population in poverty. Ok, lets say we do have 20 million illegal immigrants, 19 million of them are in poverty. There is no indication that our poverty rate will change overall after we deport 20 million illegal immigrants so we are left with a vacuum. Which means we will have about 33.6 million people in poverty after population decreased to 280 million. Previous to the Exodus, we have 18 million (37 million - 19 million) Americans in poverty. Afterwards well we are left with a difference 15.6 million, which unless you solve poverty, Gary, it will be filled by citizens and LPR's.

There is no indication that in anyway the poverty rate will change, we will still have low paying jobs, just now americans will be the ones to do them. Sure wages will increase a bit, but its unlikely to increase to the pay that would be necessary for your argument to work. And even if it did, the poverty ceiling, will go up with it.

You can make $100,000 per year, but if everyone else is making more than you, your screwed. Even though from our current economic perspective that looks good.

My God who taught you economics??? That is the biggest load of BS since my grand-dad fertilized the corn field!!! You have been to your SO's country right? That is what a country looks like with the majority of people that are poor. Now look at any developed country. Do you see a difference? It's because there are fewer poor people!!! If we took the illegals out of our country we benefit in two ways. We no longer have to pay for their upkeep and the money they send home stays here. Those that are above them don't sink to poverty. That is the looniest thing I have ever heard of!!! It just shows how you are grasping at straws to support your position. I no longer take you seriously. :lol: :lol:

So you are arguing that poor people coming into the US increases the poverty rate, and them leaving will decrease it?

Let me see what your explanation is for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poverty_59_to_05.png

We have had a poverty rate that has hovered around 10-15% since 1965. And my SO's country the rate is 18%, or about the same as the UK. While many more would be in poverty by US standards, by Indonesian standards not so much.

:lol: :lol: Dude your wacked! It tells me that if we didn't have 10 million poor illegals we would have a smaller poverty rate!! It shows me that our economy is strong enough to stand up to that onslaught!!! It tells me that the illegals need to go for the sake of our own economy!!!

Edited July 3, 2007 by Iniibig ko si Luz forever

[Dan J 277]

Ok gary, let me explain this to you in simpler terms, We have 37 million people in poverty in this country. Our population is around 300 million, which puts about 12% of our population in poverty. Ok, lets say we do have 20 million illegal immigrants, 19 million of them are in poverty. There is no indication that our poverty rate will change overall after we deport 20 million illegal immigrants so we are left with a vacuum. Which means we will have about 33.6 million people in poverty after population decreased to 280 million. Previous to the Exodus, we have 18 million (37 million - 19 million) Americans in poverty. Afterwards well we are left with a difference 15.6 million, which unless you solve poverty, Gary, it will be filled by citizens and LPR's.

There is no indication that in anyway the poverty rate will change, we will still have low paying jobs, just now americans will be the ones to do them. Sure wages will increase a bit, but its unlikely to increase to the pay that would be necessary for your argument to work. And even if it did, the poverty ceiling, will go up with it.

You can make $100,000 per year, but if everyone else is making more than you, your screwed. Even though from our current economic perspective that looks good.

My God who taught you economics??? That is the biggest load of BS since my grand-dad fertilized the corn field!!! You have been to your SO's country right? That is what a country looks like with the majority of people that are poor. Now look at any developed country. Do you see a difference? It's because there are fewer poor people!!! If we took the illegals out of our country we benefit in two ways. We no longer have to pay for their upkeep and the money they send home stays here. Those that are above them don't sink to poverty. That is the looniest thing I have ever heard of!!! It just shows how you are grasping at straws to support your position. I no longer take you seriously. :lol: :lol:

So you are arguing that poor people coming into the US increases the poverty rate, and them leaving will decrease it?

Let me see what your explanation is for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poverty_59_to_05.png

We have had a poverty rate that has hovered around 10-15% since 1965. And my SO's country the rate is 18%, or about the same as the UK. While many more would be in poverty by US standards, by Indonesian standards not so much.

:lol: :lol: Dude your wacked!

How so? I showed based on the history of US poverty rates, your arguments didn't work when you made the case that poverty rates have increased due to illegal immigration. How am I whacked?

[GaryC 7]

Ok gary, let me explain this to you in simpler terms, We have 37 million people in poverty in this country. Our population is around 300 million, which puts about 12% of our population in poverty. Ok, lets say we do have 20 million illegal immigrants, 19 million of them are in poverty. There is no indication that our poverty rate will change overall after we deport 20 million illegal immigrants so we are left with a vacuum. Which means we will have about 33.6 million people in poverty after population decreased to 280 million. Previous to the Exodus, we have 18 million (37 million - 19 million) Americans in poverty. Afterwards well we are left with a difference 15.6 million, which unless you solve poverty, Gary, it will be filled by citizens and LPR's.

There is no indication that in anyway the poverty rate will change, we will still have low paying jobs, just now americans will be the ones to do them. Sure wages will increase a bit, but its unlikely to increase to the pay that would be necessary for your argument to work. And even if it did, the poverty ceiling, will go up with it.

You can make $100,000 per year, but if everyone else is making more than you, your screwed. Even though from our current economic perspective that looks good.

My God who taught you economics??? That is the biggest load of BS since my grand-dad fertilized the corn field!!! You have been to your SO's country right? That is what a country looks like with the majority of people that are poor. Now look at any developed country. Do you see a difference? It's because there are fewer poor people!!! If we took the illegals out of our country we benefit in two ways. We no longer have to pay for their upkeep and the money they send home stays here. Those that are above them don't sink to poverty. That is the looniest thing I have ever heard of!!! It just shows how you are grasping at straws to support your position. I no longer take you seriously. :lol: :lol:

So you are arguing that poor people coming into the US increases the poverty rate, and them leaving will decrease it?

Let me see what your explanation is for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poverty_59_to_05.png

We have had a poverty rate that has hovered around 10-15% since 1965. And my SO's country the rate is 18%, or about the same as the UK. While many more would be in poverty by US standards, by Indonesian standards not so much.

:lol: :lol: Dude your wacked!

How so? I showed based on the history of US poverty rates, your arguments didn't work when you made the case that poverty rates have increased due to illegal immigration. How am I whacked?

You are going to hang on to this to the bitter end aren't you? If we had 10 million less poor people then the poverty rate would go down!!!!! If the illegals were not here the rate would be lower!!!!! Can't you add????

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok gary, let me explain this to you in simpler terms, We have 37 million people in poverty in this country. Our population is around 300 million, which puts about 12% of our population in poverty. Ok, lets say we do have 20 million illegal immigrants, 19 million of them are in poverty. There is no indication that our poverty rate will change overall after we deport 20 million illegal immigrants so we are left with a vacuum. Which means we will have about 33.6 million people in poverty after population decreased to 280 million. Previous to the Exodus, we have 18 million (37 million - 19 million) Americans in poverty. Afterwards well we are left with a difference 15.6 million, which unless you solve poverty, Gary, it will be filled by citizens and LPR's.

There is no indication that in anyway the poverty rate will change, we will still have low paying jobs, just now americans will be the ones to do them. Sure wages will increase a bit, but its unlikely to increase to the pay that would be necessary for your argument to work. And even if it did, the poverty ceiling, will go up with it.

You can make $100,000 per year, but if everyone else is making more than you, your screwed. Even though from our current economic perspective that looks good.

My God who taught you economics??? That is the biggest load of BS since my grand-dad fertilized the corn field!!! You have been to your SO's country right? That is what a country looks like with the majority of people that are poor. Now look at any developed country. Do you see a difference? It's because there are fewer poor people!!! If we took the illegals out of our country we benefit in two ways. We no longer have to pay for their upkeep and the money they send home stays here. Those that are above them don't sink to poverty. That is the looniest thing I have ever heard of!!! It just shows how you are grasping at straws to support your position. I no longer take you seriously. :lol: :lol:

So you are arguing that poor people coming into the US increases the poverty rate, and them leaving will decrease it?

Let me see what your explanation is for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Poverty_59_to_05.png

We have had a poverty rate that has hovered around 10-15% since 1965. And my SO's country the rate is 18%, or about the same as the UK. While many more would be in poverty by US standards, by Indonesian standards not so much.

:lol: :lol: Dude your wacked! It tells me that if we didn't have 10 million poor illegals we would have a smaller poverty rate!! It shows me that our economy is strong enough to stand up to that onslaught!!! It tells me that the illegals need to go for the sake of our own economy!!!

I agree with Gary on this one I think.

Dan + Gemvita - Your argument is problematic in that you have to assume that illegal/undocumented immigrants (who for all intents and purposes don't officially exist) are actually counted in census statistics or other forms of measurement related to household incomes. Even if they are I doubt the measurements are accurate or that they don't rely on assumptions and averages.

I'm also not sure you can say with certainty that the removal of 11-20 million largely impoverished people (up to 5% of the total US population) wouldn't make some pretty large differences to the country - economic and otherwise. In a way its like saying that a nuclear explosion that kills 2,000,000 people out of 300,000,000 is 'insignificant'. I mean... you need only look at 9/11 - 3,000 people killed in that and pretty much everyone knows someone involved.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

After amnesty and legalization anyone left, well, they get deported.

Your cart is still before your horse. It didn't work last time. And there's nothing that suggest it would this time.

If your going to keep saying last time, look at your enforcment argument, we tried that last time too.

You haven't brought up anything that would make me believe that those that pizzed on the laws of this land for years would all of a sudden respect it. They'll do whatever they want to do until they are shown that we ain't taking it no more. The enforcement has got to happen first. Otherwise, we'll have the debate what to do with 30 million illegals in 2020 or thereabout. You keep forgetting that once the amnesty happens, there is no assurance that the enforcement will be done. History teaches us that. That is why the majority of Americans insist that the government demonstrates that it can and will enforce the immigration laws currently in place. It's a reasonable demand to most of us.

You haven't shown me anything that enforcment alone will change anything. History in our other enforcment efforts, have either backfired (prohibition) or have a limited effectiveness (war on drugs). Even people have been able to evade taxes for most of their live as a citizen.

I'm not against enforcment, but I dont see it alone as solving the issue we have. Its only part of the solution.

I don't disagree that enforcement is not all of the solution. But it's the first step that needs to be taken. Enforcement is the horse, what to do with the illegal crowd currently here is the cart. Let's put the horse up front and see how that works. Last time we did it the other way around and is has gotten us to where we are today. Let's not repeat the mistakes.

[GaryC 7]

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied

By Mary Fitzgerald

Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A21

A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty -- has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups.

For its report, the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that advocates tougher immigration policies, used Census Bureau figures to compare the revenue that illegal immigrants contribute through taxes with the cost of government services they use.

Illegal immigrants create a fiscal deficit because they have low incomes, Steven A. Camarota said. (Robert A. Reede - Robert A. Reeder -- The Washington Post)

"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.

The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.

The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children. It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs.

"With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services," Camarota said.

The report estimates that granting legal status to illegal immigrants would dramatically increase their cost, causing the net fiscal deficit to rise to nearly $29 billion because, the author argues, unskilled immigrants would have access to more government services while continuing to make modest tax payments.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Aug25.html

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

We have had a poverty rate that has hovered around 10-15% since 1965. And my SO's country the rate is 18%, or about the same as the UK. While many more would be in poverty by US standards, by Indonesian standards not so much.

Does that poverty ratio include the folks that pay their groceries with food stamps while putting their kids in designer clothes, affording themselves $200.00 hair-do's and $50.00 nail jobs and then jumping out to daddy's pimped Lexus with $5K wheels and a $3K stereo? Have you been to the SSA lately or come by subsidized housing complexes? Ever wonder how those "poor" folks come up with the cash for them cars and designer clothes?

While I acknowledge that there is poverty in this country, I would take the official figures with a huge grain of salt. Just because we have masters in milking the welfare system, doesn't mean we have all that much actual poverty.

[LuzyC 0]

I agree with Gary on this one I think.

Ah sweet!!! I will remember this day..it must be Gary's birthday ..

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

In 2002, half the population in Mexico was living in poverty and one fifth was living in extreme poverty. At the national level, in 2002 the rates for access to electricity, water and sanitation were 98, 90 and 80 percent, respectively.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/C...:338397,00.html

Our problem?

Edited July 3, 2007 by CarolsMarc

[no name 1]

Thanks for ignoring my pleas & making this yet ANOTHER thread about illegal immigration.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Thanks for ignoring my pleas & making this yet ANOTHER thread about illegal immigration.

oooops!

[SqdnGuns 21]

So, what did Rudy have to say??

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Thanks for ignoring my pleas & making this yet ANOTHER thread about illegal immigration.

i didn't hear anything. did anyone else?

[GaryC 7]

Thanks for ignoring my pleas & making this yet ANOTHER thread about illegal immigration.

Sorry Develette, when illegal immigration or global warming are brought up I just... just.... kinda go craaaazzzzzzyyyy!!! I...I...I.... can't help myself!!!! Can someone direct me to the debate anonymous meetings?