Prenup before K1 Visa marriage?

[EWWM NITCH KAH 0]

Saved me thousands by doing a prenup. My house, and retirement were made bullet proof in a divorce situation only. Make sure the person coming is notified before he or she comes and not after they get here. Have it professionally printed in English and the language of the other . : ) Best 700,00 bucks I ever spent.

[Kimo1618 2]

If you have any existing assets, or think you will gain some in the future from work, business or inheritance, have a developing business etc.  You would be crazy not to get one. Trust me from experience! The fact that you are asking the question implies you have reason to protect something. 

[Mike E 11,739]

15 hours ago, daniel_and_lily said:

Yes because we could always argue that anything that you sign that didn't work out the way you want was signed under duress. And why would it be duress? Because there is love involved? Because one party is afraid of loosing love? If that's the case, the whole marriage itself is subject to duress and everything that goes with it should be grounds for anullment. 

The hypothesis among the learned non lawyers who are nonetheless well versed in the K-1 visa process is that the beneficiary is under pressure to take the prenup or not, hence “duress”. The argument that this is “duress” smacks of entitlement.  The petitioner isn’t forcing the beneficiary to immigrate to the USA.   

 

When I mention on anonymous social media forums that I’ve a prenup, unusually get a vitriolic response, including “that’s not my culture, so they are bad”.

 

Those who are against prenups have either not been divorced or if they have, did not pay what I paid to divorce and and what I continue to pay.  

 

Not getting a prenup: it’s like depositing money in a bank that doesn’t have depositor insurance.  
 

Being offended by being asked to sign a prenup: it’s like a bank being offended to provide depositor insurance.  
 

The argument that this should be about love and not materialism is illogical unless we believe that love is a supernatural force.  Love is a part of nature and the physical world. Love is material.  

[daniel_and_lily 45]

7 hours ago, Mike E said:

Those who are against prenups have either not been divorced or if they have, did not pay what I paid to divorce and and what I continue to pay.  

 

Not getting a prenup: it’s like depositing money in a bank that doesn’t have depositor insurance.  
 

 

Do you have any concerns about the affidavit of support? Have you included something about that in the prenup? Curious what your thoughts are on that

[Mike E 11,739]

1 hour ago, daniel_and_lily said:

Do you have any concerns about the affidavit of support? Have you included something about that in the prenup? Curious what your thoughts are on that

I presumed that a prenup cannot trump the  USCIS affidavit of support.  And in any case the I-485’s associated affidavit of support is signed after marriage.  So the second contract usurps the first contract. 
 

The affidavit of support doesn’t specify an asset split, alimony, child support.  

[luckytxn 2,264]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:58 PM, Neonred said:

Congrats on the 12 years.  This June will make 15 years for me and my wife.  Can't believe we actually made it this far.

 

Reminds me of a friend, that used to be on VJ years ago, telling me about his very long drawn out divorce from his first wife.  It was taking years and every time he thought they were close to finishing she changed her mind and wanted something more.  He was waiting outside the judges chambers for one of the hearings reading an article in a law magazine that gave statistics about actual sentences served in his state.  As they entered court he looked at his wife and said " If I had killed you back then I'd be getting out of jail about now".  Wrong thing to say!   After getting ripped a new one and asked about threatening his wife he explained that he was just quoting the statistics in the magazine in the waiting area.  

Heh, that is rough. And thanks for the congrats. I am actually surprised we made it this far as didn't expect it but now that we have I can see why we have made it. Very happy that you have made it so long with yours.

[jim_julian 26]

Totally understand ... California is brutal and totally prejudiced

[ThomasNC1988 762]

On 3/8/2021 at 2:29 PM, Mike E said:

The hypothesis among the learned non lawyers who are nonetheless well versed in the K-1 visa process is that the beneficiary is under pressure to take the prenup or not, hence “duress”. The argument that this is “duress” smacks of entitlement.  The petitioner isn’t forcing the beneficiary to immigrate to the USA.   

 

When I mention on anonymous social media forums that I’ve a prenup, unusually get a vitriolic response, including “that’s not my culture, so they are bad”.

 

Those who are against prenups have either not been divorced or if they have, did not pay what I paid to divorce and and what I continue to pay.  

 

Not getting a prenup: it’s like depositing money in a bank that doesn’t have depositor insurance.  
 

Being offended by being asked to sign a prenup: it’s like a bank being offended to provide depositor insurance.  
 

The argument that this should be about love and not materialism is illogical unless we believe that love is a supernatural force.  Love is a part of nature and the physical world. Love is material.  

I think you are missing the point a little here. If you want to have a prenup with someone on a K-1 visa you should want it to be as legally strong as possible. One party signing a contract under duress is a quick way to get that contract invalidated by the court. Now what constitutes duress? Let's take a look at this blog that is a top Google result just to get an idea https://www.rocketlawyer.com/blog/signing-under-duress-can-you-be-forced-to-sign-a-contract-928036#:~:text=Being pressured to sign a,may also be considered duress Now we see one of the things the mention as being a cause of duress is "Extraordinary economic pressure." Now is having left your home country and your entire life behind to be with someone in America who has already signed an I-134 saying they will support you but now says you have to sign this contract for them to follow through "Extraordinary economic pressure"? Well that's for a court to decide but I think every strip mall lawyer in America might think they could try to latch on to that an have the prenup thrown out. Of course this doesn't mean it will or it won't work out, you should talk to a lawyer, but you should talk to that lawyer before you make any moves including even the I-129f so you have the strongest defense possible in case of divorce. 

 

 

Edit to add: This obviously hinges on how significant your assets are as well and state law governing marital property. I.E. if you are trying to protect 50k dollars it may not be worth it for your spouse to fight a prenup after a divorce but if you are trying to protect a million dollars that gives your future ex-spouse and their attorney a lot more reason to fight.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ThomasNC1988

[daniel_and_lily 45]

1 hour ago, ThomasNC1988 said:

I think you are missing the point a little here. If you want to have a prenup with someone on a K-1 visa you should want it to be as legally strong as possible. One party signing a contract under duress is a quick way to get that contract invalidated by the court. Now what constitutes duress? Let's take a look at this blog that is a top Google result just to get an idea https://www.rocketlawyer.com/blog/signing-under-duress-can-you-be-forced-to-sign-a-contract-928036#:~:text=Being pressured to sign a,may also be considered duress Now we see one of the things the mention as being a cause of duress is "Extraordinary economic pressure." Now is having left your home country and your entire life behind to be with someone in America who has already signed an I-134 saying they will support you but now says you have to sign this contract for them to follow through "Extraordinary economic pressure"? Well that's for a court to decide but I think every strip mall lawyer in America might think they could try to latch on to that an have the prenup thrown out. Of course this doesn't mean it will or it won't work out, you should talk to a lawyer, but you should talk to that lawyer before you make any moves including even the I-129f so you have the strongest defense possible in case of divorce. 

 

 

Edit to add: This obviously hinges on how significant your assets are as well and state law governing marital property. I.E. if you are trying to protect 50k dollars it may not be worth it for your spouse to fight a prenup after a divorce but if you are trying to protect a million dollars that gives your future ex-spouse and their attorney a lot more reason to fight.

 

 

and this is exactly what makes you a "learned non lawyer" my friend. 

Like I said before, you can define  "duress" to be any situation where you feel any pressure at all. IOW, I can say that signing the affidavit of support was under duress because if I don't do it, I can't see my love. Is there bigger pressure than love? You could say it about ANY legal document, since if you don't sign it, you won't have what you want. But DESIRE is different from DURESS. 

Duress is legally defined as 

Quote

wrongful and usually unlawful compulsion

-- https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/duress.html

 

and

 

Quote

When a person makes unlawful threats or otherwise engages in coercive behavior that cause another person to commit acts that the other person would otherwise not commit.

-- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duress


It's not emotion  from fearing failure of attainment

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by daniel_and_lily

[ThomasNC1988 762]

12 minutes ago, daniel_and_lily said:

Quote

When a person makes unlawful threats or otherwise engages in coercive behavior that cause another person to commit acts that the other person would otherwise not commit.

-- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duress


It's not emotion  from fearing failure of attainment

A one line definition is not how a court works. Coercive behavior can be a lot of things. I.E. you have to sign this prenup or I won't marry you and in which case you have no way to stay in this country and you may well have no means to return to your home country. That is coercive whether you like it or not. The problem comes when you actually argue these points in front of a judge. "Your honor the defendant petitioned my client to come to America on the grounds that he would marry her and provide for her once she arrived, but upon her arrival my client was informed that she would be stranded with nothing if she did not sign this contract" How the court decides on that argument is not set in stone but it is a very likely challenge when it comes down to significant assets being contested. Nobody is saying a K-1 prenup can't be upheld(well except that one guy) but this needs to be considered and if your attorney doesn't bring it up with you they are doing you a disservice. How many times do we see people sharing the bad advice they got from attorneys on this site? Anyone who enters into a prenup needs to have competent separate legal counsel as well. This is another reason why you should start the process as early as possible preferably while your spouse is in their home country so that they can seek out their own attorney and be adequately represented. If you bring your spouse to the US and bring them into your lawyers office to sign a prenup you had drawn up or have them sign one you prepared yourself it is quite likely they could argue they didn't have the means to understand what they were signing and therefore cannot be held to it. The truth is any contract stands a chance of being contested no matter how "ironclad" it appears at its signing. Here is an example of a billionaire who's lawyers couldn't save him from a court battle that resulted in him coming out worse than if his prenup was upheld.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-ken-griffin-anne-dias-divorce-1008-biz-20151007-story.html

 

On what grounds did his wife protest the prenup? 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/09/03/how-safe-is-a-prenup-breaking-it-up-can-be-hard-to-do-lawyers-say.html

 

Anne Griffin’s legal claim to break the prenup centers on two arguments. First, she said that she signed the prenup under “duress and coercion” and under the “undue influence” of a psychologist who had a previous professional relationship with Ken Griffin. In the filing, she said she was given the prenup shortly before their wedding date and that she didn’t sign it until three hours before the rehearsal dinner.

 

Her second argument is that the agreement is “unconscionable given the enormous disparity between the parties’ respective assets, incomes and earning capacities.”

 

 

Go ahead and sign a prenup your lawyer prepared if you like, but the smarter answer is to address the issue as early as possible and make it clear that your future spose understands the consequences before they are in a situation where they might have undue pressure on them to agree. That's just the smart thing to do the same way having a prenup at all is.

[Mike E 11,739]

3 hours ago, ThomasNC1988 said:

I think you are missing the point a little here. 

The least of my worries is supporting my second ex-wife via K-1 visa at the levels the I-134 commit me to.  
 

 

[Mike E 11,739]

39 minutes ago, ThomasNC1988 said:

she said she was given the prenup shortly before their wedding date and that she didn’t sign it until three hours before the rehearsal dinner.

And my understanding is that in some of not most states, that would be enough to through out a prenup.  
 

Good thing it is considered prudent to ensure both future spouses have legal representation before they sign the prenup.  

[jim_julian 26]

OMG ... people are going around and around on this when it is really quite simple.

 

1. I had a horrific divorce where I was raped by the California legal system that, in my opinion, assumes the man is guilty until proven innocent.
2. After the divorce was initiated (the financial settlement took 10+ years)  I met a wonderful person who would become my wife.  Early on I discussed a pre-nup with her as I was too old to start over once again if raped again by California courts.  I explained that a pre-nup was only operative if we divorced and emphasized that I will sign the agreement to support her as my wife ... many have pointed this out.
3. At my suggestion, she got her own lawyer in the US who's first language was the same as hers.
4. The agreement basically said that, in case of divorce, all assets in her country were hers and all assets in the US were mine.
5. After ten years of marriage I was convinced that "until death do us part" was operative and moved our home and investments into joint ownership (JTWROS).

Marrying my current wife was the best decision I ever made.  In many cases it's prudent to have a pre-nup in place until the longevity of the marriage is proven.  Introduce the concept early.  Make sure she has an independent lawyer that speaks her language.  It's simple.

[Mike E 11,739]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:02 PM, daniel_and_lily said:

Do you have any concerns about the affidavit of support? Have you included something about that in the prenup? Curious what your thoughts are on that

USCIS is not a party to my prenup.  It never occurred to me to ask USCIS to sign it.  😂

 

Once my wife naturalizes my USCIS obligation ends.
 

 Some people fear that their spouse won’t naturalize in order to trap them into a financial obligation the federal government will enforce.  
 

I don’t understand that logic. There are certain benefits available to citizens that LPRs cannot get.  
 

A US passport is more powerful than a Burmese passport and if you are paying attention to the news, Burma is rapidly becoming a Somalia.  
 

I am not the source of economic duress.  
 

A bunch of terrorist thugs in Burma following the ISIS play book are the source of my then fiancée’s economic duress.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mike E

[Mike E 11,739]

I came across this today.  
 

https://finance.zacks.com/medical-debt-joint-spousal-liability-3817.html

 

Basically in most states a spouse is responsible for the medical debts of the other spouse.  Even if the other spouse passes away.  
 

Community property was a concept sold by certain interests to protect them women.  It turns out it was designed to protect hospitals.  
 

Always follow the money.  

 

If that doesn’t encourage someone to sign a prenup, nothing will.  Sign a prenup. Transfer assets as needed to protect your spouse from your medical bills.  
 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Mike E