Laid-off Keystone XL worker says decision to cancel pipeline ‘is going to hurt a lot of people’

[Dashinka 24,735]

1 hour ago, moxy said:

You're wondering about examples of the left's concern for workers, but every time the left voices concern for workers, the far right labels them as socialists or communists. Because somehow we've gotten to the point where corporate welfare is American as apple pie, but fairness to individuals is basically Stalin.

 

Fwiw I'm not impressed with Biden's record on workers rights. I don't know if Biden has made the argument that the pipeline workers should retrain, but it wouldn't surprise me. That argument is simplistic and is rarely ever backed by federal dollars and infrastructure to help in that transition. Not to mention you can't expect an oil worker in their fifties to just sit down and learn Python and go get a job with Google. I'm willing to call Dems out on their records, and I won't carry Biden's water. But once again, I'll take the far right seriously about concern for workers when they enact policies to show that concern.

So now we are back to what are the specific policies from R’s that were not called out when they impacted workers.  I know I was quite critical of the stupid tariffs Trump enacted (Bush as well, but that was prior to me ever being on VJ) and how they would impact US workers..  There are other ways to work out unfair trade practices at least with most countries (tariffs may be necessary with others).  The simple fact is they government is really not the best place to deal with economic factors other than to spend money.

[moxy 1,051]

Maybe anti-policies might be better to explore.

 

Republicans and the far right are anti-healthcare. "Repeal and replace" Obamacare has been the mantra since Obamacare was passed, and yet Republicans have offered no replacement at all. (Trump's common reply of "you'll see it in two weeks" was an ongoing joke for 4 years) But they sure have worked hard at the repeal part. And let's not kid ourselves. Republicans have zero intention of replacing Obamacare. Once it's gone, it's gone. And the sad thing is, Obamacare sucks. It's expensive if you want real coverage, it's different for different geographic areas, and it's riddled with flaws. But rather than help make Obamacare a beacon of national healthcare, Republicans do nothing but try to tear it down.

 

Republicans have been attacking public education for a generation. It was the policy of the Trump administration (and, if memory serves, the GW Bush administration) to divert funds in the form of vouchers, from public education, to private institutions. And why not? Their kids get to go to elite and pricey private schools. And with vouchers, the wealthy don't even have to pay the full cost of those elite schools, they can just siphon it off from public schools that desperately need that money.

 

We have Reagan and Gingrich to thank--remember the black welfare queen driving a pink Cadillac? (a complete myth btw)--for systematically tearing down public assistance for the poor. How disgusting that these rich powerful men looked down at people who just needed a hand up, and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. All while making the rich richer. That's not a party friendly to the working class.

 

GW Bush cut something like $40 billion in Medicare budget for the elderly, to pay for Iraq. He took another $1B from child assistance funds, and completely eliminated supplemental food programs for low-income seniors and children. That was in addition to cutting something like 150 domestic programs, many of them public assistance safety nets. (And this is the tip of the iceberg for Bush. Trump was a disaster, but Bush was deadly efficient at dismantling safety nets for people who desperately needed it.)

 

Unions have been crippled under each Republican administration. Fifty years ago, Amazon and Walmart workers would be able to unionize easily. Now it's almost impossible. Most recently, the Labor Relations Board under Trump has cut back on worker rights to unionize, taking away rights for workers and giving more rights to wealthy corporations. Union membership is at the lowest it's ever been, and you can almost lay a graph of increasing corporate wealth against decreasing unionization, point by point. Oh, you could also lay a graph of individual declining wealth across those two graphs.

 

These are all off the top of my head. I'm sure I've forgotten some big ones. You can criticize the Dems for many things, and you'd probably be right. But the Republican party has systematically ensured that the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class has shrunk to its lowest levels ever. There's a reason the far right are constantly attacking people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. They (Sanders and AOC) want everyone to have an education, health care, and the same opportunities the rich have, and they're disgusted by the obscene and disproportional wealth accumulated by the upper one percent, specifically enabled by the Republican party. Whatever your politics, you should be disgusted by that too. Nobody's saying you have to become a Democrat. Just stop believing the narrative that the Republican party has any of your best interests in mind, unless you're in that one percent.

[Crtcl Rice Theory 2,432]

3 hours ago, moxy said:

Maybe anti-policies might be better to explore.

 

Republicans and the far right are anti-healthcare. "Repeal and replace" Obamacare has been the mantra since Obamacare was passed, and yet Republicans have offered no replacement at all. (Trump's common reply of "you'll see it in two weeks" was an ongoing joke for 4 years) But they sure have worked hard at the repeal part. And let's not kid ourselves. Republicans have zero intention of replacing Obamacare. Once it's gone, it's gone. And the sad thing is, Obamacare sucks. It's expensive if you want real coverage, it's different for different geographic areas, and it's riddled with flaws. But rather than help make Obamacare a beacon of national healthcare, Republicans do nothing but try to tear it down.

 

Republicans have been attacking public education for a generation. It was the policy of the Trump administration (and, if memory serves, the GW Bush administration) to divert funds in the form of vouchers, from public education, to private institutions. And why not? Their kids get to go to elite and pricey private schools. And with vouchers, the wealthy don't even have to pay the full cost of those elite schools, they can just siphon it off from public schools that desperately need that money.

 

We have Reagan and Gingrich to thank--remember the black welfare queen driving a pink Cadillac? (a complete myth btw)--for systematically tearing down public assistance for the poor. How disgusting that these rich powerful men looked down at people who just needed a hand up, and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. All while making the rich richer. That's not a party friendly to the working class.

 

GW Bush cut something like $40 billion in Medicare budget for the elderly, to pay for Iraq. He took another $1B from child assistance funds, and completely eliminated supplemental food programs for low-income seniors and children. That was in addition to cutting something like 150 domestic programs, many of them public assistance safety nets. (And this is the tip of the iceberg for Bush. Trump was a disaster, but Bush was deadly efficient at dismantling safety nets for people who desperately needed it.)

 

Unions have been crippled under each Republican administration. Fifty years ago, Amazon and Walmart workers would be able to unionize easily. Now it's almost impossible. Most recently, the Labor Relations Board under Trump has cut back on worker rights to unionize, taking away rights for workers and giving more rights to wealthy corporations. Union membership is at the lowest it's ever been, and you can almost lay a graph of increasing corporate wealth against decreasing unionization, point by point. Oh, you could also lay a graph of individual declining wealth across those two graphs.

 

These are all off the top of my head. I'm sure I've forgotten some big ones. You can criticize the Dems for many things, and you'd probably be right. But the Republican party has systematically ensured that the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class has shrunk to its lowest levels ever. There's a reason the far right are constantly attacking people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. They (Sanders and AOC) want everyone to have an education, health care, and the same opportunities the rich have, and they're disgusted by the obscene and disproportional wealth accumulated by the upper one percent, specifically enabled by the Republican party. Whatever your politics, you should be disgusted by that too. Nobody's saying you have to become a Democrat. Just stop believing the narrative that the Republican party has any of your best interests in mind, unless you're in that one percent.

So...there never was a Trump healthcare plan?

[laylalex 7,300]

Just now, CanAm1980 said:

So...there never was a Trump healthcare plan?

You must have missed it, it was announced during Infrastructure Week.

[Crtcl Rice Theory 2,432]

2 minutes ago, laylalex said:

You must have missed it, it was announced during Infrastructure Week.

Right, that was just after Mexico paid for the wall.

[Dashinka 24,735]

11 hours ago, moxy said:

Maybe anti-policies might be better to explore.

 

Republicans and the far right are anti-healthcare. "Repeal and replace" Obamacare has been the mantra since Obamacare was passed, and yet Republicans have offered no replacement at all. (Trump's common reply of "you'll see it in two weeks" was an ongoing joke for 4 years) But they sure have worked hard at the repeal part. And let's not kid ourselves. Republicans have zero intention of replacing Obamacare. Once it's gone, it's gone. And the sad thing is, Obamacare sucks. It's expensive if you want real coverage, it's different for different geographic areas, and it's riddled with flaws. But rather than help make Obamacare a beacon of national healthcare, Republicans do nothing but try to tear it down.

 

Republicans have been attacking public education for a generation. It was the policy of the Trump administration (and, if memory serves, the GW Bush administration) to divert funds in the form of vouchers, from public education, to private institutions. And why not? Their kids get to go to elite and pricey private schools. And with vouchers, the wealthy don't even have to pay the full cost of those elite schools, they can just siphon it off from public schools that desperately need that money.

 

We have Reagan and Gingrich to thank--remember the black welfare queen driving a pink Cadillac? (a complete myth btw)--for systematically tearing down public assistance for the poor. How disgusting that these rich powerful men looked down at people who just needed a hand up, and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. All while making the rich richer. That's not a party friendly to the working class.

 

GW Bush cut something like $40 billion in Medicare budget for the elderly, to pay for Iraq. He took another $1B from child assistance funds, and completely eliminated supplemental food programs for low-income seniors and children. That was in addition to cutting something like 150 domestic programs, many of them public assistance safety nets. (And this is the tip of the iceberg for Bush. Trump was a disaster, but Bush was deadly efficient at dismantling safety nets for people who desperately needed it.)

 

Unions have been crippled under each Republican administration. Fifty years ago, Amazon and Walmart workers would be able to unionize easily. Now it's almost impossible. Most recently, the Labor Relations Board under Trump has cut back on worker rights to unionize, taking away rights for workers and giving more rights to wealthy corporations. Union membership is at the lowest it's ever been, and you can almost lay a graph of increasing corporate wealth against decreasing unionization, point by point. Oh, you could also lay a graph of individual declining wealth across those two graphs.

 

These are all off the top of my head. I'm sure I've forgotten some big ones. You can criticize the Dems for many things, and you'd probably be right. But the Republican party has systematically ensured that the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class has shrunk to its lowest levels ever. There's a reason the far right are constantly attacking people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. They (Sanders and AOC) want everyone to have an education, health care, and the same opportunities the rich have, and they're disgusted by the obscene and disproportional wealth accumulated by the upper one percent, specifically enabled by the Republican party. Whatever your politics, you should be disgusted by that too. Nobody's saying you have to become a Democrat. Just stop believing the narrative that the Republican party has any of your best interests in mind, unless you're in that one percent.

To be fair, most unions in the private sector have been crippled by their support (or at least their management's support) of the Democrats.  This is entirely what this thread is all about, the Union representing the pipefitters building this pipeline was all in with Biden even though he had promised to end their employment.  Public sector unions will of course support the Dems since they want to negotiate with like minded folks, but they certainly do not care about the people that are impacted (see Chicago Public School fiasco).  Of course the teachers unions will soon be complaining about a loss of funding due to all the children that have been moved to private schools, but of course there are a lot of disadvantaged folks that are not able to choose that option.  It is interesting that the Dems are all against Schools of Choice or Charter schools that can help out these disadvantaged kids.

 

Personally, I do not believe either Party has anyone's best interest in mind.  They each have one goal, and one goal only, remain in power.  You can believe the Dems, especially the Dems in DC have you or the other hoi polloi in mind when they do things, but there is still that bridge for sale.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Dashinka

[moxy 1,051]

My point about the unions isn't about which party is more union friendly (although it doesn't need to be said). My point is that the Republican party has eroded worker rights over several decades to the point that it's almost impossible to unionize at this point. You even breathe the word union at Amazon or Walmart (to name just a few of the big players) and your job is in jeopardy. Companies act in bad faith now, because they've been enabled. So wages either stay stagnant, or go down, even as these companies rake in more and more profits. Jeff Bezos is on pace to be the world's first trillionaire within a decade, and his warehouse workers have to supplement their incomes with public assistance. But when people ask for that playing field to be leveled, they are labeled as communists and socialists. The system is broke, and Republicans want it that way.

[Dashinka 24,735]

9 minutes ago, moxy said:

My point about the unions isn't about which party is more union friendly (although it doesn't need to be said). My point is that the Republican party has eroded worker rights over several decades to the point that it's almost impossible to unionize at this point. You even breathe the word union at Amazon or Walmart (to name just a few of the big players) and your job is in jeopardy. Companies act in bad faith now, because they've been enabled. So wages either stay stagnant, or go down, even as these companies rake in more and more profits. Jeff Bezos is on pace to be the world's first trillionaire within a decade, and his warehouse workers have to supplement their incomes with public assistance. But when people ask for that playing field to be leveled, they are labeled as communists and socialists. The system is broke, and Republicans want it that way.

There are a lot of factors regarding the unionization efforts going on right now, it is all not the fault of DC.  Heck, in Tenn, I remember hearing of a VW plant that the UAW was trying to unionize, and the company, VW, was even happy to let it happen, and the workers still rejected it.  Being part of a union is not a panacea for everyone.  Unions, just like corporations have to adapt to the times, and in my experience, a lot of the private sector unions are still living in the 1920s.  

 

The broke system favors both Parties in DC although I see you don't agree with that.  The Dems in DC are in no rush to fix anything, and when they try to do something, they usually screw it up with a lot of unintended consequences.  Like I said, the Parties have only one goal in their own efforts, to stay in power by any means necessary.

[Crazy Cat 42,069]

Wow!  I didn't realize that Jeff Bezos and the board of Walmart are Republicans......In fact, I don't think they are.

[moxy 1,051]

1 minute ago, Lucky Cat said:

Wow!  I didn't realize that Jeff Bezos and the board of Walmart are Republicans......In fact, I don't think they are.

Not what I said at all. I said the Republican party was killing unions. Jeff Bezos and other billionaires are just reaping the rewards.

[moxy 1,051]

4 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

There are a lot of factors regarding the unionization efforts going on right now, it is all not the fault of DC.  Heck, in Tenn, I remember hearing of a VW plant that the UAW was trying to unionize, and the company, VW, was even happy to let it happen, and the workers still rejected it.  Being part of a union is not a panacea for everyone.  Unions, just like corporations have to adapt to the times, and in my experience, a lot of the private sector unions are still living in the 1920s. 

 

Unionization is a democratic process. If workers vote not to unionize, then good on the company for making a better deal for workers. Choice is good. But if the UAW hadn't been there to put pressure on VW, you can absolutely bet they wouldn't have just voluntarily offered the workers the deal they wound up getting. Choice isn't just nice to have, it's a tool for workers to get better pay and working conditions.

 

What Republicans are trying to do (and are being very successful at) is to kill even the option of unionizing. They're trying to take that choice out of workers hands.

 

By the way, VW wasn't just a passive observer in all of this. They didn't negotiate in good faith, they delayed negotiations, there were allegations they broke labor laws, and VW spread a lot of disinformation about unionization. They were able to do all of this because our labor laws have been weakened to the point that corporations have all the power now.

 

Quote

The broke system favors both Parties in DC although I see you don't agree with that.  The Dems in DC are in no rush to fix anything, and when they try to do something, they usually screw it up with a lot of unintended consequences.  Like I said, the Parties have only one goal in their own efforts, to stay in power by any means necessary.

Both parties are bad. Both parties are not equally bad.

 

The Republican party has been hijacked by extremists starting right around Newt Gingrich, and solidifying with the tea party. Give me the Republican party pre-1980s and then we can talk about how both parties suck more or less equally.

[Dashinka 24,735]

11 minutes ago, moxy said:

 

Unionization is a democratic process. If workers vote not to unionize, then good on the company for making a better deal for workers. Choice is good. But if the UAW hadn't been there to put pressure on VW, you can absolutely bet they wouldn't have just voluntarily offered the workers the deal they wound up getting. Choice isn't just nice to have, it's a tool for workers to get better pay and working conditions.

 

What Republicans are trying to do (and are being very successful at) is to kill even the option of unionizing. They're trying to take that choice out of workers hands.

 

By the way, VW wasn't just a passive observer in all of this. They didn't negotiate in good faith, they delayed negotiations, there were allegations they broke labor laws, and VW spread a lot of disinformation about unionization. They were able to do all of this because our labor laws have been weakened to the point that corporations have all the power now.

 

Both parties are bad. Both parties are not equally bad.

 

The Republican party has been hijacked by extremists starting right around Newt Gingrich, and solidifying with the tea party. Give me the Republican party pre-1980s and then we can talk about how both parties suck more or less equally.

See, that is where we disagree, both parties are equally bad IMO.  You mention the GOP has been hijacked by extremist without acknowledging the massive shift toward the extreme left by the Dems.  Any party operating on the extreme of the political spectrum will do things that are bad period.

 

As to the whole Union thing, that is another discussion, but if people want to unionize, that is on them.  It is not impossible to unionize, but of course companies can do what they can within the law to make it less desirable to do that including the potential for moving their operations.  Business is mobile, and any responsible corporate entity needs to look at all factors when deciding how to maintain a decent profit.

[moxy 1,051]

3 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

See, that is where we disagree, both parties are equally bad IMO.  You mention the GOP has been hijacked by extremist without acknowledging the massive shift toward the extreme left by the Dems.  Any party operating on the extreme of the political spectrum will do things that are bad period.

 

As to the whole Union thing, that is another discussion, but if people want to unionize, that is on them.  It is not impossible to unionize, but of course companies can do what they can within the law to make it less desirable to do that including the potential for moving their operations.  Business is mobile, and any responsible corporate entity needs to look at all factors when deciding how to maintain a decent profit.

 

A "shift to the extreme left" means access to health care, a fair and living wage, an end to the massive wealth gap, access to education without crippling debt, putting the health of our environment over money, and treating everyone, regardless of race, sexual orientation, religion, or nationality equally.

 

A shift to the extreme right means the cult of personality we endured for four years (and will probably endure for a generation), radicalized nationalism, radicalized religion, radicalized misogyny, never-ending wars, and a society where the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle-class get squeezed out.

 

I wouldn't characterize it as a shift to the extreme left, but more of a shift back to some semblance of normality. But if you want to call it a shift to the extreme left, then let's get extreme. We tried the other way, and we are worse for it.

[Dashinka 24,735]

15 minutes ago, moxy said:

 

A "shift to the extreme left" means access to health care, a fair and living wage, an end to the massive wealth gap, access to education without crippling debt, putting the health of our environment over money, and treating everyone, regardless of race, sexual orientation, religion, or nationality equally.

 

A shift to the extreme right means the cult of personality we endured for four years (and will probably endure for a generation), radicalized nationalism, radicalized religion, radicalized misogyny, never-ending wars, and a society where the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle-class get squeezed out.

 

I wouldn't characterize it as a shift to the extreme left, but more of a shift back to some semblance of normality. But if you want to call it a shift to the extreme left, then let's get extreme. We tried the other way, and we are worse for it.

Not to bring up he who shall not be spoken of, but as a member of the GOP, he was much more centrist than at least the last 3 GOP occupants in the WH.  That aside, I do enjoy the utopian vision you are saying the Dems have.  The Dems have clearly shifted to the extreme Left, and they have also become the Party of the rich elite (do you think Bezos voted GOP?), I know, it is sacrilege to say the Dems are only paying lip service to the little guy, but that is exactly what it is.  It is also a big reason why I do not belong to either Party.

 

Btw, you do know that it is the producers of this country that actually drive the economy right?  It is not DC, as the government is not in any way a producer. 

[moxy 1,051]

5 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Not to bring up he who shall not be spoken of, but as a member of the GOP, he was much more centrist than at least the last 3 GOP occupants in the WH.

I think that would be a very tough case to make. Rich people did very well under Trump. Everyone else did worse. There was no way the pandemic was going to leave the economy unscathed, but his handling of the pandemic impacted the economy a lot worse than it would have. I could go on and on, but ultimately you only need to look at his extremist base to see that calling Trump a centrist is completely redefining the word. I didn't like most of GW Bush's policies, but looking back, I'd have taken two more terms of Bush over a single Trump term. We will be paying for Trump's radicalization of his supporters for a generation.

 

Quote

That aside, I do enjoy the utopian vision you are saying the Dems have.  The Dems have clearly shifted to the extreme Left, and they have also become the Party of the rich elite (do you think Bezos voted GOP?), I know, it is sacrilege to say the Dems are only paying lip service to the little guy, but that is exactly what it is.  It is also a big reason why I do not belong to either Party.

I'm trying to be careful here to delineate between when I speak about the Dems, and when I speak about the left. There is a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram, but suffice to say I consider myself left of center. I don't trust the Democrats as far as I can throw them, but for now I'll throw my support behind them because the Republican party has completely lost the high ground on any issue or policy they ever stood for.

 

Jeff Bezos is worth close to $200 billion. Do you think he really cares about party? As I said earlier, he's reaped the rewards of Republican tax give-aways to the rich. If the GOP could write Bezos explicitly by name out of their give-aways, I'm sure they would. Bezos could lose 99% of his wealth and still be a billionaire, so let's not get hung up on who he votes for. I could have just as easily used the Koch family, who are hard-core Republicans and worth over $50 billion. The point is that Republicans have sold your and my future to the wealthiest 1% in this country. You don't have to like the Democrats, but you're cutting off your own legs every time you vote for or support the Republican party. The Democrats may be terrible, but their legislation at least works for the other 99%.

 

Quote

Btw, you do know that it is the producers of this country that actually drive the economy right?  It is not DC, as the government is not in any way a producer. 

I have long held that the President holds little sway over the economy, barring major interference like tariffs and other heavy-handed manipulation. Every time someone has posted about how great the economy was doing under Trump, or every time Trump blabbed about how great his economy was, I was mocked for mentioning that belief. So I'm glad to have an ally in recognition of that truth. Policy can tip the economy or put pressure on it, but yes, in general it's the producers who drive it. But when laws are passed that favor the wealthy over the other 99%, it really doesn't matter what the economy is doing. Even when the economy was doing great before the pandemic, wages and benefits were stagnant. Under Republicans, the deck is always stacked against the 99%.