FBI vetting Guard troops in DC amid fears of insider attack

[moxy 1,051]

11 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Unfortunately, he will be a former president and his legacy will live on. So still relevant in some conversations. 

His legacy as president will be to have been the only president ever to have lost the popular vote twice, the only president impeached twice, the only president to have attempted a coup, the only president to have ever rejected the results of a free and fair election, and the only president to have ever rejected the foundational philosophy of a peaceful transfer of power.

 

So yeah, he'll always be a former president, but there'll always be an asterisk by his name.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 minute ago, moxy said:

His legacy as president will be to have been the only president ever to have lost the popular vote twice, the only president impeached twice, the only president to have attempted a coup, the only president to have ever rejected the results of a free and fair election, and the only president to have ever rejected the foundational philosophy of a peaceful transfer of power.

 

So yeah, he'll always be a former president, but there'll always be an asterisk by his name.

Yep, definitely not a good legacy in any way

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

21 minutes ago, moxy said:

His legacy as president will be to have been the only president ever to have lost the popular vote twice, the only president impeached twice, the only president to have attempted a coup, the only president to have ever rejected the results of a free and fair election, and the only president to have ever rejected the foundational philosophy of a peaceful transfer of power.

 

So yeah, he'll always be a former president, but there'll always be an asterisk by his name.

Where's the asterisk located?

[B_J 2,752]

A president's legacy is not usually decided the same day they leave office.  But, speculation is always fun.

 

During Trump's tenure we had incredibly low unemployment rates among almost every subpop (pre-Covid).  There was progress made on criminal justice reform and progress made in the middle east with countries creating closer ties to Israel.  Trump also did not start any new wars/conflicts and he says he improved the VA (I'm not military so I really don't know).   There are other positives that occurred during his presidency but....

 

He also drastically lowered the standard of conduct that we accept from our President ( that sentence has been nominated for understatement of the year).  And he was not a strong leader for the country during COVID.  I don't blame him for every death but his leadership style was not helpful.  

 

I have no issue with a candidate challenging the results through legal means.  That is every candidate's right.  However, I think that, in the future, when people mention President Trump, the first things they will remember is the capitol riot and his less than pleasant personality.  Fair or not, I think he will bear the blame for what happened and his presidency will always be viewed negatively.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

1 hour ago, B_J said:

A president's legacy is not usually decided the same day they leave office.  But, speculation is always fun.

 

During Trump's tenure we had incredibly low unemployment rates among almost every subpop (pre-Covid).  There was progress made on criminal justice reform and progress made in the middle east with countries creating closer ties to Israel.  Trump also did not start any new wars/conflicts and he says he improved the VA (I'm not military so I really don't know).   There are other positives that occurred during his presidency but....

 

He also drastically lowered the standard of conduct that we accept from our President ( that sentence has been nominated for understatement of the year).  And he was not a strong leader for the country during COVID.  I don't blame him for every death but his leadership style was not helpful.  

 

I have no issue with a candidate challenging the results through legal means.  That is every candidate's right.  However, I think that, in the future, when people mention President Trump, the first things they will remember is the capitol riot and his less than pleasant personality.  Fair or not, I think he will bear the blame for what happened and his presidency will always be viewed negatively.

The things I'll remember is all the effort people in power made to go after him and overthrow him, subvert his Presidency, and use these invented controversies as a constant slow drip of negative press to influence the 2020 race.

 

I'll remember the booming economy Trump's policies produced, this actually was bringing people together and feeling good about being American again. However, a certain political class can't have it, which is why they helped promote all the chaos to redirect people's ire toward each other and toward Trump. His personality is simply too easy to market against with an unstable population that readily abandons long standing principles.

 

I'll remember all the promises kept and the effort to do so despite being endlessly stymied in court and Congress. Never backing down on the wall, on healthcare, on the election, are all essential components to harnessing the populism movement.

 

On the other hand, key criticisms of mine are that what could've contributed more to the populist movement Trump hurt by his actions. If he saw all these election problems coming as he demonstrated almost a full year before the election itself, he should've focused efforts on getting the right people involved in these key states to forcefully involve themselves in the process. 

 

My biggest criticism was how much he let voters and supporters (many millions of populists around the world) down on Assange, Snowden, etc. and his pardoning/clemency choices. A lot of people really pin it down to the last minute but he had all 4 years to do this. Even if he might cause a firestorm during the idiotic Russiagate stuff, he had 2 years from Mueller's do-nothing report when it all fell apart. There was no justification for pardoning all the people he did and not pardoning Assange, Snowden, and others. Human memory tends to be conveniently short, and so the lasting memory many Trump supporters have is the message he sent to all the people who were treated like absolute dirt for supporting him, because they are populists, and believed in his cause, and he sent the biggest affirming message to the "deep state" that could've possibly been sent by letting them continue to torture Assange and doing nothing. This is, for me, unforgivable, but I am not a single-issue voter, so while this is a monumental letdown, the best part of his Presidency is, unlike many of the other populism and grassroots movements that quickly reabsorb into the parties, this movement will last a while. Whether it goes away or not really depends on how weak/strong people are to understand that while Trump was nowhere near the most ideal solution, that populism is indeed where things need to go, and establishments fear this more than anything else because its Dem-GOP unifying, left-right unifying, etc. The people in these parties are incredibly careful not to step on a landmine that has the populism snowball rolling downhill to the point where they can't stop it and the parties are toast, that's why they put on this show of supporting Trump and populism.. it's been 4 years of psychological warfare and manipulation upon the American populace by people trying incredibly hard to maintain their grasp on power. It was hilarious watching neocons like Lindsey Graham do their Dance Dance Revolution acts hopping all over the place trying to appease Trump supporters and his establishment overlords/buddies. These people may mostly be lawyers but to me they are a conniving corporate circus act of performance artists and car salesmen.

 

Trump supporters have given me more faith in the last 4 years of people finally starting to think outside the party box than before, they clearly scared all the right people, I just hope Trump's successes are a catalyst for this hegemony's downfall. They are no longer an American hegemony, they've gone global, and it shouldn't be a shock that their success has had an inverse relationship with prosperity in western society.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

2 hours ago, B_J said:

A president's legacy is not usually decided the same day they leave office.  But, speculation is always fun.

 

During Trump's tenure we had incredibly low unemployment rates among almost every subpop (pre-Covid).  There was progress made on criminal justice reform and progress made in the middle east with countries creating closer ties to Israel.  Trump also did not start any new wars/conflicts and he says he improved the VA (I'm not military so I really don't know).   There are other positives that occurred during his presidency but....

 

He also drastically lowered the standard of conduct that we accept from our President ( that sentence has been nominated for understatement of the year).  And he was not a strong leader for the country during COVID.  I don't blame him for every death but his leadership style was not helpful.  

 

I have no issue with a candidate challenging the results through legal means.  That is every candidate's right.  However, I think that, in the future, when people mention President Trump, the first things they will remember is the capitol riot and his less than pleasant personality.  Fair or not, I think he will bear the blame for what happened and his presidency will always be viewed negatively.

 

   Perspective and time can change things, but only if there is something new to learn. I think George Bush is a good example. He got off to a really rough start, but looking back, he actually got a lot better with time and grew into the role. Public opinion was already what it was, and GWB probably hasn't got enough credit for things that he did better over time. 

 

   I don't really see where that type of thing comes from with Trump. He didn't start well, and he didn't end well. I don't see anything coming out that changes anything that he already got credit for. Really Trumps biggest legacy is probably going to be that every other president moves up one spot in the historical rankings. 

[TBoneTX 45,943]

2 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

GWB probably hasn't got enough credit for things that he did

It's Bush's fault.  (= credit where it's due)

[Steeleballz 7,550]

1 minute ago, TBoneTX said:

It's Bush's fault.  (= credit where it's due)

 

  He did a lot wrong, especially at the beginning and he got full "credit" for that. He should also get credit for the things he did right. Granted, as I said, every former president probably looks a little better now thanks to Trump, but I think Bush would have looked better with time regardless. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

The most deranged people on the left of the spectrum (the usual authoritarians and neoliberals) are seeing the best in Bush (despite all the same alarmism absent establishment support because Bush was one of theirs) because the worst part of Republicans in modern US history came out during the Bush era. Unfortunately my memory of this hasn't faded and I remember all the bitter, bitter fights with conservatives at that time for opposing numerous Bush policies, on gays, but mostly, Iraq, the attempts to humiliate me, the people rabidly wanting to bomb people all over the world and torture them (which included people like Assange), and the authoritarian power grabs that followed 9/11 that Republicans most of all embraced. Only with an honest memory can one see that things have flipped and now Democrats are what Republicans were then, on steroids, and it's no shock that the worst Republicans have joined with Democrats to take advantage of how screwed up they've gotten. It really shouldn't take an independent with no affiliation to the parties to see this.

 

7 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  He did a lot wrong, especially at the beginning and he got full "credit" for that. He should also get credit for the things he did right. Granted, as I said, every former president probably looks a little better now thanks to Trump, but I think Bush would have looked better with time regardless. 

 

No, they look a little better because people's memories are conveniently short, and for the left, because they find themselves acting just like the authoritarian right did back then, only worse -- helps prevent an ounce of introspection. Those of us with longer memories recall the hysteria never stopped throughout Bush's presidency, both of his elections were objected to by Democrats, the same idiotic "white supremacy" stuff and all. I was largely with Democrats, too, but on things of substance (Iraw War, spying, authoritarianism, etc.), not the dumb hysteria and manipulation (invented white supremacy, sexism, etc.).

Edited January 20, 2021 by Burnt Reynolds

[Dashinka 24,735]

1 minute ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

The most deranged people on the left of the spectrum (the usual authoritarians and neoliberals) are seeing the best in Bush (despite all the same alarmism absent establishment support because Bush was one of theirs) because the worst part of Republicans in modern US history came out during the Bush era. Unfortunately my memory of this hasn't faded and I remember all the bitter, bitter fights with conservatives at that time for opposing numerous Bush policies, on gays, but mostly, Iraq, the attempts to humiliate me, the people rabidly wanting to bomb people all over the world and torture them (which included people like Assange), and the authoritarian power grabs that followed 9/11 that Republicans most of all embraced. Only with an honest memory can one see that things have flipped and now Democrats are what Republicans were then, on steroids, and it's no shock that the worst Republicans have joined with Democrats to take advantage of how screwed up they've gotten. It really shouldn't take an independent with no affiliation to the parties to see this.

Most likely another power grab coming to further erode civil liberties.  The power elite have to maintain the ruling status over the Hoi polloi.

[B_J 2,752]

1 minute ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

The most deranged people on the left of the spectrum (the usual authoritarians and neoliberals) are seeing the best in Bush (despite all the same alarmism absent establishment support because Bush was one of theirs) because the worst part of Republicans in modern US history came out during the Bush era. Unfortunately my memory of this hasn't faded and I remember all the bitter, bitter fights with conservatives at that time for opposing numerous Bush policies, on gays, but mostly, Iraq, the attempts to humiliate me, the people rabidly wanting to bomb people all over the world and torture them (which included people like Assange), and the authoritarian power grabs that followed 9/11 that Republicans most of all embraced. Only with an honest memory can one see that things have flipped and now Democrats are what Republicans were then, on steroids, and it's no shock that the worst Republicans have joined with Democrats to take advantage of how screwed up they've gotten. It really shouldn't take an independent with no affiliation to the parties to see this.

Speaking of authoritarian power grabs, it really bothers me when people try to label Trump a fascist/dictator/authoritarian.  The BLM riots would have been an opportunity for him to move in that direction but he didn't.  He just offered to help states if they asked.  He probably could have become more authoritarian during the COVID outbreak but he again just put more responsibility on the states.  You can criticize his presidency for a lot of reasons but some labels just don't seem to fit.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

8 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

The most deranged people on the left of the spectrum (the usual authoritarians and neoliberals) are seeing the best in Bush (despite all the same alarmism absent establishment support because Bush was one of theirs) because the worst part of Republicans in modern US history came out during the Bush era.

 

  The worst part of Republicans is a lot more recent than the Bush administration. The most deranged people on the right seem to have some difficulty accepting that. 

[Dashinka 24,735]

4 minutes ago, B_J said:

Speaking of authoritarian power grabs, it really bothers me when people try to label Trump a fascist/dictator/authoritarian.  The BLM riots would have been an opportunity for him to move in that direction but he didn't.  He just offered to help states if they asked.  He probably could have become more authoritarian during the COVID outbreak but he again just put more responsibility on the states.  You can criticize his presidency for a lot of reasons but some labels just don't seem to fit.

For all the handwringing and pearl clutching over Trump, he seemed to follow the Constitution a lot MOR than some more recent Presidents.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

5 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  The worst part of Republicans is a lot more recent than the Bush administration. The most deranged people on the right seem to have some difficulty accepting that. 

Yeah, with the Nazi ideals like free speech and the litany of gaslighting attempts the left can concoct. Vastly worse than the Bush era authoritarians they're trying to emulate.

 

5 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

For all the handwringing and pearl clutching over Trump, he seemed to follow the Constitution a lot MOR than some more recent Presidents.

Notably, any reasonable interpretation of free speech and other concepts that is neither left nor right, and is notably "American" is likened to "far right" specifically to serve the purpose of extremists too dumb to realize the power they think they're getting is actually going to authoritarians who are only paying lip service to their fantasies. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Burnt Reynolds

[moxy 1,051]

20 minutes ago, B_J said:

Speaking of authoritarian power grabs, it really bothers me when people try to label Trump a fascist/dictator/authoritarian.

• Called the free press "enemies of the people.
• Literally had peaceful protesters teargassed so he could pose with an upside-down bible in front of a church.
• Attempted to undermine and overturn the results of the election. Fomented and instigated a coup when the election results were being certified by his own Vice President. (watched the riots and destruction of the capitol with glee.)
• Praised and admired actual fascists and dictators (even saluted a North Korean general)
• Pressured (and threatened) political leaders to change the results of free and fair elections in their states
• Trusted the word of Putin over his own intelligence agency
• Denied press access to the White House of reporters who had been critical of him (and allowed conspiracy theory laden favorable organizations access)
• The Muslim Ban
• Firing civil servants for insufficient loyalty. (firing and/or smearing anyone who wasn't sufficiently loyal)
• False charges and claims ("lock her up!" etc) against his political enemies
• Separating illegal immigrant parents from their children in order to terrorize asylum seekers into not coming to the US

These are off the top of my head. I'm sure the list goes on and on and on. Trump was a wannabe authoritarian who admired other authoritarians, and attempted to descend the US into authoritarian rule.