Immigration bill suffers major defeat in Senate

[Dan J 277]

We don't need to deport anyone. Just enforce the laws we have, make it impossable for them to work and they will leave on their own. Funny how things would work out if we just enforce the law.

I've been asking for a long time now, with no answer forthcoming from anyone - exactly how we go about enforcing these laws in an aggressive manner. Might as well have been whistling in the wind.

How do we enforce employment laws in an aggressive manner? That to me implies some sort of massive audit programme.

I would rather pay for the enforcment than have the illegals stay. A national ID card with biometrics would be a good start. Tripling the fines for hiring an illegal would be another. Snitch lines with rewards for turning in companies that hire illegals would be another. None of that would cost a lot.

Say hello to big brother. The National ID program needs to die. There is nothing to protect when you give up all of your freedoms in the name of security.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Racking up the penalties is all well and good but it still doesn't address the enforcement issue.

I think a lot of profiteers would start to get cold feet once their peers are doing time. I say it's worth a shot.

Worth a shot sure. I'm just asking how. Otherwise - what exactly would I be agreeing to?

Stiff penalties. Fines large enough to put a business out of business and mandatory time for those in charge of hiring illegals. That's it. Once the first lot is sent up the river and the first businesses go belley up, there'll be a lot more sensitivity on the issue. People will reconsider whether it's really worth it to take the chance. Put the enforcement portion of the bill through and let's see five years from now where that gets us. Then we talk about the rest. The government has a credibility gap on the enforcement that needs to be addressed before America will sign off on a large scale amnesty. Said amnesty wouldn't be quite so large in scale if the government demonstrates that the enforcement works.

Yeah and again that's all well and good but stiffer penalties still don't address the 'how'. We already know that immigration laws have gone unenforced for years - enough to basically be a joke. How are we going to change what we're currently doing to ensure a significant long term impact on this problem? Again as I see it - to monitor employers would require some sort of audit program via the INS/USCIS. That would require some sort of shakeup of how those agencies operate and talk to each other.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Racking up the penalties is all well and good but it still doesn't address the enforcement issue.

I think a lot of profiteers would start to get cold feet once their peers are doing time. I say it's worth a shot.

Worth a shot sure. I'm just asking how. Otherwise - what exactly would I be agreeing to?

Stiff penalties. Fines large enough to put a business out of business and mandatory time for those in charge of hiring illegals. That's it. Once the first lot is sent up the river and the first businesses go belley up, there'll be a lot more sensitivity on the issue. People will reconsider whether it's really worth it to take the chance. Put the enforcement portion of the bill through and let's see five years from now where that gets us. Then we talk about the rest. The government has a credibility gap on the enforcement that needs to be addressed before America will sign off on a large scale amnesty. Said amnesty wouldn't be quite so large in scale if the government demonstrates that the enforcement works.

Yeah and again that's all well and good but stiffer penalties still don't address the 'how'. We already know that immigration laws have gone unenforced for years - enough to basically be a joke. How are we going to change what we're currently doing to ensure a significant long term impact on this problem? Again as I see it - to monitor employers would require some sort of audit program via the INS/USCIS. That would require some sort of shakeup of how those agencies operate and talk to each other.

As I always say: if there is a will, there is a way.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I just want to know what I'd be asked to agree to. Like Dan I'm not ecstatic about National ID Cards.

[SqdnGuns 21]

Looks like we need to Thank the Senators from the South and Mid-west.............

[archie07 0]

Make sure you contract those who voted to defeat it to thank them (positive reinforcement), and that you flaunt to those who didn't. I will be calling Sen. Ken Salazar's staff a few times this week to gloat and to remind them that I will vote, but not for him!

where do you find who voted which way?

Cantwell (D-WA), Yea

[bislig2alabama 1]

Both Alabama Senators voted NO. Senator Sessions was a strong leader for the opposition! He did a fine job. We are proud of him. Even when president Bush came to Alabama to help the Senator in his campaign the senator continued his fight. He was very opposed to the illegals receiving the income tax credit even if they had not paid taxes. He said that it was the largest welfare program in the budget!

[mawilson 2,133]

How do we enforce employment laws in an aggressive manner? That to me implies some sort of massive audit programme.

Follow the money. Build a system which requires a valid SSN issued for work purposes

in order to pay an employee. If an employee's SSN as reported on their W-2 triggers a

no-match letter from the SSA, investigate.

[LibCampFireClub 635]

""Regardless of how you feel about it personally, do you think that deporting all illegal immigrants who are currently in the United States back to their native countries is a realistic and achievable goal, or not?"

was the question

While responding to this kind of lunacy, I may be provoking more, but I cannot resist.

Here's how it works:

There will be no need to seek out anyone hiding in shadows when ALL employers are penalized, fined, and / or jailed for hiring even one single worker that fails to produce evidence of being in the country legally. There is already a law. All employers must complete an I-9 for each and every employee. Do they? Course not, because the law is currently not enforced. Enforce the law and guess what happens? There will be a vast migration back to Mexico, which is the predominant violator, becuase there will be nowhere to work, no money.

There will however likely be a real need to increase the presence of law enforcement because alien lawbreakers will likely increase their involvement with criminal activity out of sheer desperation before leaving or getting caught.

[smoke20 0]

""Regardless of how you feel about it personally, do you think that deporting all illegal immigrants who are currently in the United States back to their native countries is a realistic and achievable goal, or not?"

was the question

While responding to this kind of lunacy, I may be provoking more, but I cannot resist.

Here's how it works:

There will be no need to seek out anyone hiding in shadows when ALL employers are penalized, fined, and / or jailed for hiring even one single worker that fails to produce evidence of being in the country legally. There is already a law. All employers must complete an I-9 for each and every employee. Do they? Course not, because the law is currently not enforced. Enforce the law and guess what happens? There will be a vast migration back to Mexico, which is the predominant violator, becuase there will be nowhere to work, no money.

There will however likely be a real need to increase the presence of law enforcement because alien lawbreakers will likely increase their involvement with criminal activity out of sheer desperation before leaving or getting caught.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

""Regardless of how you feel about it personally, do you think that deporting all illegal immigrants who are currently in the United States back to their native countries is a realistic and achievable goal, or not?"

was the question

While responding to this kind of lunacy, I may be provoking more, but I cannot resist.

Here's how it works:

There will be no need to seek out anyone hiding in shadows when ALL employers are penalized, fined, and / or jailed for hiring even one single worker that fails to produce evidence of being in the country legally. There is already a law. All employers must complete an I-9 for each and every employee. Do they? Course not, because the law is currently not enforced. Enforce the law and guess what happens? There will be a vast migration back to Mexico, which is the predominant violator, becuase there will be nowhere to work, no money.

There will however likely be a real need to increase the presence of law enforcement because alien lawbreakers will likely increase their involvement with criminal activity out of sheer desperation before leaving or getting caught.

Question again is exactly how. Has anyone done a feasibility study on whether or not it is possible to enforce those laws in a broad manner?

[John & Annie 0]

""Regardless of how you feel about it personally, do you think that deporting all illegal immigrants who are currently in the United States back to their native countries is a realistic and achievable goal, or not?"

was the question

While responding to this kind of lunacy, I may be provoking more, but I cannot resist.

Here's how it works:

There will be no need to seek out anyone hiding in shadows when ALL employers are penalized, fined, and / or jailed for hiring even one single worker that fails to produce evidence of being in the country legally. There is already a law. All employers must complete an I-9 for each and every employee. Do they? Course not, because the law is currently not enforced. Enforce the law and guess what happens? There will be a vast migration back to Mexico, which is the predominant violator, becuase there will be nowhere to work, no money.

There will however likely be a real need to increase the presence of law enforcement because alien lawbreakers will likely increase their involvement with criminal activity out of sheer desperation before leaving or getting caught.

There is a lot more to this.

I ran a company that used a large Latino Workforce. We would fill in all of the forms and do everything legal. 6 to 9 moths later, we may get a letter stating the the SSN is wrong. By law, we were not allowed to 'profile' that person and say they were illegal. We would have to ask for the number again. This would go on and on.

While I understand everyone's apprehension about the National ID card, I think it is the best solution. If you think Big Brother is really out there to get you, you should not have an ATM card, credit cards, mortgage insurance, a Drivers license, a SSN.... These are all documents that are 'trackable'. So stop using them, pay cash for everything.

The Government already has the ability to track you, so why not do it openly and that way we know what they are doing.

Back to immigration, Two things need to happen

1. Enforce the laws on the books

2. Open the number of Visa's to an amount that is realistic

The entire immigration debate would go away

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How many ID cards do we need? Don't see the benefit of adding another layer of bureaucracy when we already have Driver Licenses, LPR Cards and Passports. All of these are ID documents.

[LibCampFireClub 635]

""Regardless of how you feel about it personally, do you think that deporting all illegal immigrants who are currently in the United States back to their native countries is a realistic and achievable goal, or not?"

was the question

While responding to this kind of lunacy, I may be provoking more, but I cannot resist.

Here's how it works:

There will be no need to seek out anyone hiding in shadows when ALL employers are penalized, fined, and / or jailed for hiring even one single worker that fails to produce evidence of being in the country legally. There is already a law. All employers must complete an I-9 for each and every employee. Do they? Course not, because the law is currently not enforced. Enforce the law and guess what happens? There will be a vast migration back to Mexico, which is the predominant violator, becuase there will be nowhere to work, no money.

There will however likely be a real need to increase the presence of law enforcement because alien lawbreakers will likely increase their involvement with criminal activity out of sheer desperation before leaving or getting caught.

Question again is exactly how. Has anyone done a feasibility study on whether or not it is possible to enforce those laws in a broad manner?

Are you kidding me? Feasibility study?

This is a matter of first common sense, and second, the ability to look at the many sovereign nations around you that have an active border checking program in place. But, let’s take this point by point:

1. Secure the borders

Is this feasible? We currently have a system in place, whose sole purpose is to ensure that anyone entering the country is doing so legally. Anyone that attempts to circumvent this system has violated US law. Now, it’s reported that somewhere around 12-20 million such folk have already violated that law, and are either hiding in the shadows, or are experienced at the catch-and-release process.

Because each and every day, there are dozens, if not hundreds of people that are violating the sanctity of the vulnerable US border between US and Mexico. Several people that are currently watching the border have clearly stated that there are miles and miles of open land that all one must do is simply walk across the border and hook up with someone that is waiting on the other side.

Now, what’s feasible here? Have you ever heard of the Great Wall of China? That wall was built more than 200 years before Christ, without the use of cranes, dump trucks, back hoes, etc. Additionally, that wall extends for over 4000 miles. The border between the US and Mexico extends some 1500+ miles, from California to Texas. Building the kind of fence along this stretch of border is entirely feasible. Building it alone will reduce the influx of illegal movement coming to the US seeking work. Add to it, ground radar, and other technological means of detection will further alert attempted incursions. There are now funds that have been approved to hire additional border agents to watch for these incursions. Once a violator is caught, the process of catch and release will go away, and instead, violators will be incarcerated for up to 18 months, and subjected to biometric analysis.

2. Enforce the current I-9 law. Is it feasible? Again, you’ve got to be kidding? The American people have clearly demonstrated by voicing a resounding “I’M SICK OF ILLEGAL PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY,” to their Senators and elected officials. The secret is out. Where there was once a blind eye and a turned head given to those that employ illegal aliens in the past, you will indeed begin seeing more and more employers choosing to obey laws and complete and validate the I-9 in lieu of getting a huge fine, facing jail, or otherwise.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why the vast majority of people come here. It ain’t for tourism, it’s for work. Once the jobs dry up, people will stop coming, and those here will be forced to leave. Once this method is employed, you can make no mistake that it will clearly work here, as it does in other countries like Mexico and China.

[mawilson 2,133]

The Government already has the ability to track you, so why not do it openly and that way we know what they are doing.

The Government doesn't have the ability to track you because there's no single database of all US citizens.

The ATM card is issued by your bank - the Government cannot access it without a warrant.

The driver's licence is issued by the state DMV, etc etc