Laws and Legality

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Also don't know how this applies here - but certainly in the UK one of the reasons poor people stay on welfare is that they actually make a better living that way, rather than take an unskilled f/t job.

What incentive is there for a person to take a dead-end job and be even worse off than they would be on the dole?

[Heracles 417]

Someone who immigrates here must have a sponsor in lieu of all of the tax-payer funded benefits, so 'just the clothes on their back' should be 'just the clothes on their back and someone who either is employing them or guaranteeing their place of residence', right? I'm seeing reality and it has a I-864 attached.

Plus one of four immigrants lives below the poverty line, so, at a poverty rate of 25%, they're not exactly beating out the American public.

What about people who enter as refugees. I know of at least 12 families who migrated here from Europe during the 60's and 70's with nothing who are all now doing well.

[Heracles 417]

Also don't know how this applies here - but certainly in the UK one of the reasons poor people stay on welfare is that they actually make a better living that way, rather than take an unskilled f/t job.

What incentive is there for a person to take a dead-end job and be even worse off than they would be on the dole?

Which goes back to my original post of not using poverty as an excuse for violence or homicide. Poor inner city people have just as many opportunities to make something of themselves and change their lives as most other Americans. This is not Africa. They do not need to walk 3 miles to the nearest well and work 18 hours a days.. Maybe some should travel to other poor nations to get a reality check of what their life could be like.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Infidel

[mawilson 2,133]

My rule would be: If the government fails to create a reasonable belief in people that breaking a law may result in punishment, the law should be repealed.

I agree. One example is "jaywalking." There's no such thing in England.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Also don't know how this applies here - but certainly in the UK one of the reasons poor people stay on welfare is that they actually make a better living that way, rather than take an unskilled f/t job.

What incentive is there for a person to take a dead-end job and be even worse off than they would be on the dole?

Which goes back to my original post of not using poverty as an excuse for violence or homicide. Poor inner city people have just as many opportunities to make something of themselves and change their lives as most other Americans. This is not Africa. They do not need to walk 3 miles to the nearest well and work 18 hours a days... Maybe some should travel to other poor nations to get a reality check of what their life could be like.

Not to go backwards here - but are you honestly surprised when people accuse you of racism when you post stuff like this? What's next - perhaps they should stop "throwing spears at each other", or "brush the flies off their children's mouths". IMO - you're lucky someone from Africa hasn't stopped by here to call you to task for stuff like this.

And again you continue to make assumptions about my background and travel history.

Poverty is a reality - whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Clearly you have no problem making sweeping generalisations about the people 'in poverty'.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My rule would be: If the government fails to create a reasonable belief in people that breaking a law may result in punishment, the law should be repealed.

I agree. One example is "jaywalking." There's no such thing in England.

Indeed - you can do it in front of the cops and they don't care. It is after all, rather silly - considering the places where it would be best served (e.g. NYC) are places where its least enforced. Conversely I saw a guy get a ticket at 7am in CA for crossing an empty street that stretched as far as the eye could see in both directions. I mean... common sense?

[Heracles 417]

Not to go backwards here - but are you honestly surprised when people accuse you of racism when you post stuff like this? What's next - perhaps they should stop "throwing spears at each other", or "brush the flies off their children's mouths". IMO - you're lucky someone from Africa hasn't stopped by here to call you to task for stuff like this.

Why is that a continent forbidden against discussion. Anyway, never criticized Africa but rather the attitude of the poor in America.

Poverty is a reality - whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Clearly you have no problem making sweeping generalisations about the people 'in poverty'.

So my questioning over why the inner city poor do not move to other areas to get a job is bad?

Next some of your guys are going to tell me that the poor should have a right to trash and destroys neighborhoods because they are poor.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Infidel

[almaty 19]

My rule would be: If the government fails to create a reasonable belief in people that breaking a law may result in punishment, the law should be repealed.

I agree. One example is "jaywalking." There's no such thing in England.

i think some laws are made as knee jerk reaction to an event..jaywalking..a family of 3 ran over..over time, the law becomes void and not enforce by law personnel...

[ChristinaM 0]

I hate to say it, but I also agree with Infidel. If there isn't work in your field in your area, move. If there isn't any work at all, for heaven's sake move! Yes, it costs money to move. But the cost of such a move can be offset by the earnings potential at the other end. America is all about the subprime credit market; I find it pretty unbelievable that people can't dredge up enough for a U-Haul van and a tank of gasoline when their very future may be dependent upon it.

If you're an unskilled laborer, there are still jobs for you. We have hundreds of foreign workers flooding into Maine right now - MAINE!! It's not like we're the most economically developed state in the union! What are those people coming here to do? They're coming to clean and cook and wait tables in the hospitality sector. They're coming to pick the blueberries. When the blueberry season is over, they'll pick the potatoes. When the winter comes, some of them will hike off to the ski resorts, others down south where the hotels never close, some will return to their home countries to live off the spoils of their season. Yes, seasonal work is transitory, but if you do it for a few seasons there's no reason that you can't save enough money to rent an apartment somewhere where you can get a factory job all year long. If you want a job bad enough, you will find one.

Philanthropy is all well and good, but I'm a big proponent of fixing what's wrong with the country I live in on my tax dollar. I feel bad for the poverty-stricken in Africa and all, but fix what's wrong at home before you start spending my money abroad, please.

Relative morality is a great thing. It allows a judge to say "You were doing 65 in a 35 because your wife was giving birth in the back of your car, so I will cut you more slack than the guy who wanted to pick up his high school girlfriend and was showing off by doing 65 in a school zone". We should have judges that we trust to make those kind of determinations. I also think, as Gary does, that it's important to have an acceptable range of solutions, because judges are only human.

[Jenn! 918]

This just goes back to the idea that successful people often see the failures of others as somehow deserved.

Do you think it's because admitting that circumstances and, to a certain degree, luck may come into play in determining success somehow takes away from people's own sense of accomplishment?

[Heracles 417]

I hate to say it, but I also agree with Infidel. If there isn't work in your field in your area, move. If there isn't any work at all, for heaven's sake move! Yes, it costs money to move. But the cost of such a move can be offset by the earnings potential at the other end. America is all about the subprime credit market; I find it pretty unbelievable that people can't dredge up enough for a U-Haul van and a tank of gasoline when their very future may be dependent upon it.

If you're an unskilled laborer, there are still jobs for you. We have hundreds of foreign workers flooding into Maine right now - MAINE!! It's not like we're the most economically developed state in the union! What are those people coming here to do? They're coming to clean and cook and wait tables in the hospitality sector. They're coming to pick the blueberries. When the blueberry season is over, they'll pick the potatoes. When the winter comes, some of them will hike off to the ski resorts, others down south where the hotels never close, some will return to their home countries to live off the spoils of their season. Yes, seasonal work is transitory, but if you do it for a few seasons there's no reason that you can't save enough money to rent an apartment somewhere where you can get a factory job all year long. If you want a job bad enough, you will find one.

Philanthropy is all well and good, but I'm a big proponent of fixing what's wrong with the country I live in on my tax dollar. I feel bad for the poverty-stricken in Africa and all, but fix what's wrong at home

That pretty much sums it up. Some people do not want to work if they feel the job is below them. Anyone who points this out and breaks it down to demographics is racist.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Infidel

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not to go backwards here - but are you honestly surprised when people accuse you of racism when you post stuff like this? What's next - perhaps they should stop "throwing spears at each other", or "brush the flies off their children's mouths". IMO - you're lucky someone from Africa hasn't stopped by here to call you to task for stuff like this.

Why is that a continent forbidden against discussion. Anyway, never criticized Africa but rather the attitude of the poor in America.

You said:

This is not Africa. They do not need to walk 3 miles to the nearest well and work 18 hours a days...

That's a stereotype or I've never heard one.

And no - its not forbidden from discussion, but if you want to discuss it I'd suggest it would help to at least demonstrate some actual knowledge of it - rather than making trite statements based on TV images.

So my questioning over why the inner city poor do not move to other areas to get a job is bad?

Next some of your guys are going to tell me that the poor should have a right to trash and destroys neighborhoods because they are poor.

Why would you assume that - based on 'what' exactly? Think I condone violence and vandalism? Think again...

I'd suggest you pose your question to some people actually in poverty and see what they tell you - rather than relying on your one-size-fits-all generalisations about what is wrong with society.

Anyone who points this out and breaks it down to demographics is racist.

Um no - you didn't break anything down into demographics. You're taking heavily stereotyped assumptions about inner-city and presenting them as fact. You're also making similarly stereotyped generalisations about the various peoples who occupy the African continent.

[Alex+R 0]

The thing with the poor is they don't have the money to get started.

As Gupt put it earlier thousands of other immigrants have moved to the US and capitalized on the opportunities in the US. Both legal and Illegal immigrants do it all the time. That is migrate here with no tax payer funded benefits, no food stamps EBT and pretty much the clothes on the back yet build a life for themselves.

Someone who immigrates here must have a sponsor in lieu of all of the tax-payer funded benefits, so 'just the clothes on their back' should be 'just the clothes on their back and someone who either is employing them or guaranteeing their place of residence', right? I'm seeing reality and it has a I-864 attached.

Plus one of four immigrants lives below the poverty line, so, at a poverty rate of 25%, they're not exactly beating out the American public.

My family sponsored several branches of a large Russian/Ukrainian family coming as refugees. They arrived with just the clothes on their back. My mom arranged jobs for them and spent a lot of her own money on their basic things for years as well as tutoring them in English twice a week the first two years. They still had some people on welfare and are now becoming more stable as a whole after 11 years. People who arrive with just the clothes on their backs need lots of help, and people tend to forget that.

[Heracles 417]

I'd suggest you pose your question to some people actually in poverty and see what they tell you - rather than relying on your one-size-fits-all generalisations about what is wrong with society.

Nothing wrong with society but the attitude within certain cultures.

My family sponsored several branches of a large Russian/Ukrainian family coming as refugees. They arrived with just the clothes on their back. My mom arranged jobs for them and spent a lot of her own money on their basic things for years as well as tutoring them in English twice a week the first two years. They still had some people on welfare and are now becoming more stable as a whole after 11 years. People who arrive with just the clothes on their backs need lots of help, and people tend to forget that.

Of course. People also forget this is not that 1920's. The US is a high tech economy and not in the industrial era. You either need to be skilled or highly educated.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Infidel

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'd suggest you pose your question to some people actually in poverty and see what they tell you - rather than relying on your one-size-fits-all generalisations about what is wrong with society.

Nothing wrong with society but the attitude within certain cultures.

"culture" is part of "society"