Laws and Legality

[GaryC 7]

Ok, I will bite the bait. I fall on the side of punishment. There should be manditory minimum and maximum punishments for every crime. When you see a judge letting a child molester go free because he thinks that treatment is better than punishment that really tears it for me. In regard to immigration, if you sneak into the country, falsify documents or other like crimes then they should be guilty of a felony and the minimum sentance should be deportation. If it is repeated then there should be jail time and then deportation.

Adding foreign nationals to overcrowded jails which you and I would be paying for their upkeep.

For repeat offenders, yes.

[Heracles 417]

You want to have a theoretical discussion of the purpose of criminal law...on VJ? You've got to be kidding me.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black..

[Heracles 417]

On the topic though I cannot believe there are over 2,245,189 million people in jail in the US. The biggest increase was in Violent offenses include murder, negligent and non-negligent manslaughter, rape, sexual assault, robbery, assault, extortion, intimidation, criminal endangerment, and other violent offenses.

The real issues are: who is committing these crimes? What are the demographics of violent crime? Why is crime so prevalent within certain communities? etc

Edited June 28, 2007 by Infidel

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Ok, I will bite the bait. I fall on the side of punishment. There should be manditory minimum and maximum punishments for every crime. When you see a judge letting a child molester go free because he thinks that treatment is better than punishment that really tears it for me. In regard to immigration, if you sneak into the country, falsify documents or other like crimes then they should be guilty of a felony and the minimum sentance should be deportation. If it is repeated then there should be jail time and then deportation.

Gary, we need to steer clear of talking about illegal immigration in this thread or we'll end up back to square one.

Ok, so you believe there should be mandatory sentences for every crime. Is driving over the speed limit, in your opinion, a criminal offense?

[Dan J 277]

On the topic though I cannot believe there are over 2,245,189 million people in jail in the US. The biggest increase was in Violent offenses include murder, negligent and non-negligent manslaughter, rape, sexual assault, robbery, assault, extortion, intimidation, criminal endangerment, and other violent offenses.

The real issues are: who is committing these crimes? What are the demographics of violent crime? Why is crime so prevalent within certain communities? etc

Welcome to America.

There is no one reason why we have so many people in jail.

As long as we remain a capitalist society we will always have poverty to some extent. We can as a society/government at least provide basic needs to deter people from taking to crime as a way out. It wont stop all crime, but it will hopefully prevent some people from ending up in the criminal system. Europe and other places around the world, have done a much better job of taking care of their people, than the US has.

But I think there is also a cultural aspect to this. And I don't know exactly where is from.

If you go to Canada, they have about 40,000 people in jail. Population is 33 million, so it makes up about .1% of the population. In relative terms, the US has about 7 times that. 2.2 million people in jail out of a population of 300 million is .7% of the population.

Its not just population density, there are places with alot higher population density and lower crime rates.

Its not religion or lack of, most of the countries with low crime rates are secular.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Usually if there's enough people disobeying a particular law, the law itself becomes futile.

Let us abolish speeding, drunk driving and petty theft laws at once then. All would appear futile by this standard.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Usually if there's enough people disobeying a particular law, the law itself becomes futile.

Let us abolish speeding, drunk driving and petty theft laws at once then. All would appear futile by this standard.

If noone enforces it - then the law is essentially pointless no?

The other side of it is that enough people refuse en-masse to - let's say pay a tax that they don't feel is fair, the sheer weight of numbers will force a change in the law.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Usually if there's enough people disobeying a particular law, the law itself becomes futile.

Let us abolish speeding, drunk driving and petty theft laws at once then. All would appear futile by this standard.

If noone enforces it - then the law is essentially pointless no?

I think that at the very least, it should make us re-examine whether that law makes sense or not and whether the punishment fits the crime.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Usually if there's enough people disobeying a particular law, the law itself becomes futile.

Let us abolish speeding, drunk driving and petty theft laws at once then. All would appear futile by this standard.

If noone enforces it - then the law is essentially pointless no?

The other side of it is that enough people refuse en-masse to - let's say pay a tax that they don't feel is fair, the sheer weight of numbers will force a change in the law.

Speeding and drunk driving laws are enforced and yet there are millions breaking those each and every day. The sheer weight of offenders has thus far not caused a change in either law. Nor should it. Same goes for petty theft, by the way.

Edited June 28, 2007 by ET-US2004

[JoeMama 0]

You want to have a theoretical discussion of the purpose of criminal law...on VJ? You've got to be kidding me.

I think that it's one of fundamental arguments that keep the debates on illegal immigration going in a circular fashion.

Because people can't understand the question, IMO. VJ has really changed how I look at people, especially other Americans. I used to think a lot more of them before I started spending a lot of time here. Now I understand where people are coming from, and I want to go back to when I didn't.

ALex, VJ is a microcosm of society. If you see people any differently now, it's because you are more aware of people, nothing more.

Exactly.

Living in NYC will be a very interesting time for you, I can guarantee that!

Sorry Steven.

I guess if you were really sorry to Steven, you wouldn't be throwing in more passive-aggressive comments, would you?

Hm, I'm not sheltered from others' opinions. I've lived in places bigger than New York before. What's your point?

It wasn't passive aggressive. I posted, then realized I was hijacking so I apologized.

I don't know where your anger is coming from but you made it sound like VJ has opened your eyes to ugly Americans. All I meant was NYC will open your eyes to a heck of a lot more.

Whatever. I'm done being second guessed when I meant it legitimately.

PS: I doubt there are many places bigger than NYC....

Hey Dev, you're cool. Never apologize about how you feel. And don't ever feel as though you are obligated to explain your feelings to anyone. Especially, on VJ. It's only a forum!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Usually if there's enough people disobeying a particular law, the law itself becomes futile.

Let us abolish speeding, drunk driving and petty theft laws at once then. All would appear futile by this standard.

If noone enforces it - then the law is essentially pointless no?

The other side of it is that enough people refuse en-masse to - let's say pay a tax that they don't feel is fair, the sheer weight of numbers will force a change in the law.

Speeding and drunk driving laws are enforced and yet there are millions breaking those each and every day. The sheer weight of offenders has thus far not caused a change in either law. Nor should it. Same goes for petty theft, by the way.

Depends on the crime though doesn't it? It's not a hard and fast rule.

[Nancy2015 2]

I'm curious how many people here believe that the punishment should be mandatory, for all cases, regardless of circumstances?

Circumstances, under which one commits a crime, are crucial for determining what kind of punishment this person deserves. However, if you break the law, you should be punished for that in some way, regardless of the circumstances.

I disagree that if no one enforces the law it becomes pointless - it just means that someone has to start enforcing it.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Usually if there's enough people disobeying a particular law, the law itself becomes futile.

Let us abolish speeding, drunk driving and petty theft laws at once then. All would appear futile by this standard.

If noone enforces it - then the law is essentially pointless no?

The other side of it is that enough people refuse en-masse to - let's say pay a tax that they don't feel is fair, the sheer weight of numbers will force a change in the law.

Speeding and drunk driving laws are enforced and yet there are millions breaking those each and every day. The sheer weight of offenders has thus far not caused a change in either law. Nor should it. Same goes for petty theft, by the way.

Not that simple. If the posted speed limit is 25 MPH and everybody drives 45 MPH, the posted speed limit could be raised. With drunk driving - each state has its own legal limit so there is argument over when being inebriated effects one's driving to the point of endangering others. If the blood alcohol limit is so low that a very high percentage of people are getting DUI's, then it's worth looking into whether the legal limit should be raised - taking into account scientific evidence as well as statistics.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Generally law changes don't involve acts that materially jeopardise public safety.

[GaryC 7]

Ok, I will bite the bait. I fall on the side of punishment. There should be manditory minimum and maximum punishments for every crime. When you see a judge letting a child molester go free because he thinks that treatment is better than punishment that really tears it for me. In regard to immigration, if you sneak into the country, falsify documents or other like crimes then they should be guilty of a felony and the minimum sentance should be deportation. If it is repeated then there should be jail time and then deportation.

Gary, we need to steer clear of talking about illegal immigration in this thread or we'll end up back to square one.

Ok, so you believe there should be mandatory sentences for every crime. Is driving over the speed limit, in your opinion, a criminal offense?

Yes, I believe in manditory minimum and maximum sentances. Yes, speeding is a crime. A minor one but still a crime. Haven't you ever filled out a form that asks: "Other than minor traffic violations, have you been convicted of a crime?".

Yes, speeding is a crime.