All Things Coronavirus (Part 2)

[Dashinka 24,439]

Just now, yuna628 said:

No, but the blase' attitude of "oh well everyone's got to die sometime and of something" is a little disturbing at this point.

Don't they?  Is it not the one true absolutism of life?  There are older folks in care facilities that would rather die from the Vid then go without family interactions, so what is better?  The vid cases are growing mostly due to personal gatherings, I for one have not gathered with friends and family since last December, and I do my best to keep my distance from the idiots that are out there, but people are allowed to be idiots in our society.  Now we are getting more restrictions that will hammer folks and businesses already severely depressed, we are getting directives communicated through official channels (not Twitter) that are completely unenforceable without the trashing of the 4th Amendment, and in the meantime we get the elite like Newsom, Whitmer, Cuomo, Bowser, etc. that do what they want anyway.  

 

It is what it is, I am sorry this has hit your family so hard, but unless you want every single American to simply stay home, and every, and I mean every business to close for two weeks, three weeks, six months, etc., I don't see this going away anytime soon besides the fact that this is totally unsustainable.  It is a virus, it cannot be controlled except through distance.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

7 minutes ago, fip & jim said:

I didn't say that your freedoms are meaningless. And I am very used to having that attitude shown to me. I lived in England and identify as English, but the period of history that you are talking about my ancestors were in Ireland, Scotland and Norway. I'm not sure what you mean by I come from countries where "freedoms mean little for the sake of government instituted comfort". It was pretty nice not to have mass shootings and an affordable healthcare system. Not sure how that equates to having freedom taken away. 

 

Did you mean antiquating? Antiquating would mean making obsolete the constitution by replacing with something new or better. 

And thus you have your tradeoff of immigrating to the US. You have many other benefits that weren't nearly as prominent in the UK, and you also have other problems that weren't so bad. Nonetheless, it's incumbent upon the immigrant to understand what they're coming to and not pretend the US is bound by the freedom discarding rules of where you immigrated from. Even during a pandemic, freedoms don't go byebye. I think that was made clear by countless courts disposing of authoritarian decrees, in case the constitution wasn't clear enough.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Dashinka 24,439]

4 minutes ago, fip & jim said:

What happened? 

The Whitmer EO that forced care facilities to take Covid positive patients.  Apparently, Whitmer was using a different science book at that time.  Btw, I heard this was one of the reasons the hospitals in MI are filling up, care facilities are refusing to do this anymore, so these folks are recovering in the hospitals.

[fip & jim 452]

1 minute ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

And thus you have your tradeoff of immigrating to the US. You have many other benefits that weren't nearly as prominent in the UK, and you also have other problems that weren't so bad. Nonetheless, it's incumbent upon the immigrant to understand what they're coming to and not pretend the US is bound by the freedom discarding rules of where you immigrated from.

I'm not pretending anything. 

 

You have a very baffling attitude. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

Just now, fip & jim said:

I'm not pretending anything. 

 

You have a very baffling attitude. 

I don't, I'm simply critical of arguments, attitudes, and actions hostile to what freedoms we still have. I saw your posts where you said people need to be told what to do, and I know the entity that does the "telling". I also saw the ambiguous yet presumably low bar you set of "serious problem" justifying "telling" people what to do. The government may be the collective nanny of people in the UK, but in the US it's only the representative of Americans. 

[fip & jim 452]

4 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

The Whitmer EO that forced care facilities to take Covid positive patients.  Apparently, Whitmer was using a different science book at that time.  Btw, I heard this was one of the reasons the hospitals in MI are filling up, care facilities are refusing to do this anymore, so these folks are recovering in the hospitals.

I'm sorry for your loss. Was your cousin a worker or a resident? 

 

[laylalex 7,284]

I'm baffled by what "antiquating" is supposed to mean here.

[Crtcl Rice Theory 2,432]

14 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

ban weddings and solve that problem

The law allowed weddings of 30 people. Evidently that was not good enough for these folks, the rules don't apply to them.

 

Some people cannot get with the program, so yes, the entire West coast is shutting down because of groups like this.  Folks need to pull their heads out and understand that the enemy is not health care professionals, the governors or the opposite political group, but the virus.

 

 

[fip & jim 452]

1 minute ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

I don't, I'm simply critical of arguments, attitudes, and actions hostile to what freedoms we still have. I saw your posts where you said people need to be told what to do, and I know the entity that does the "telling". I also saw the ambiguous yet presumably low bar you set of "serious problem" justifying "telling" people what to do. The government may be the collective nanny of people in the UK, but in the US it's only the representative of Americans. 

Some people do need to be told what to do. There's a lack of information and guidance on how to deal with a pandemic. Some people don't take it seriously. Some people think it's a hoax. Some people put other people at risk. We are told what to do in many areas of life. Do you object to that? There would be chaos if we didn't have rules and laws. 

 

Having affordable health care and stricter gun laws hardly makes the UK a nanny state. 

[Ban Hammer 13,283]

3 minutes ago, laylalex said:

I'm baffled by what "antiquating" is supposed to mean here.

i thought it was the process of what happens to new furniture in the back of the antiques store.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

18 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Don't they?  Is it not the one true absolutism of life?  There are older folks in care facilities that would rather die from the Vid then go without family interactions, so what is better?  The vid cases are growing mostly due to personal gatherings, I for one have not gathered with friends and family since last December, and I do my best to keep my distance from the idiots that are out there, but people are allowed to be idiots in our society.  Now we are getting more restrictions that will hammer folks and businesses already severely depressed, we are getting directives communicated through official channels (not Twitter) that are completely unenforceable without the trashing of the 4th Amendment, and in the meantime we get the elite like Newsom, Whitmer, Cuomo, Bowser, etc. that do what they want anyway.  

 

It is what it is, I am sorry this has hit your family so hard, but unless you want every single American to simply stay home, and every, and I mean every business to close for two weeks, three weeks, six months, etc., I don't see this going away anytime soon besides the fact that this is totally unsustainable.  It is a virus, it cannot be controlled except through distance.

What should've been done is for any new virus, protecting the most vulnerable. Had that been done by people that were in the direct authority to do so (mayors, governors), you'd not have seen them die with such intensity. Nonetheless, people also need to realize freedom also comes with responsibility. The elderly who are vulnerable, yet are still making choices for themselves and not in homes, cannot go living life as if nothing is happening and that institutions will just protect them all on their own. I saw some extremely old ladies at Trump rallies not even wearing masks or distancing or anything. One of my grandmothers aside (who I'm highly confident would beat the virus hands down) I'd be freaking out if that were my grandparent. Some 93-97% of deaths from the virus are the elderly. This isn't the only virus that's harmful to them, they can't act as if they're invincible when they are already in a demographic of higher risk people.

 

5 minutes ago, fip & jim said:

Some people do need to be told what to do. There's a lack of information and guidance on how to deal with a pandemic. Some people don't take it seriously. Some people think it's a hoax. Some people put other people at risk. We are told what to do in many areas of life. Do you object to that? There would be chaos if we didn't have rules and laws. 

 

Having affordable health care and stricter gun laws hardly makes the UK a nanny state. 

Being told what to do isn't guidance. It's commanding. Commands like this are always an infringement upon freedoms. The highest infringements in this case are lockdowns, closing businesses, banning people from speech, protesting, practicing their religion, etc. 

 

And I don't care what people think of it. I don't care if they're conspiracy nuts, I don't care if they're anti-vaxxers. People don't lose their freedoms just because someone believes people need to be told what to do and they come from a place where people are subservient to their government's whims. 

 

And it's not only a nanny state for those things, the massive infringement on basic freedoms like speech, privacy, and so on.. guns and healthcare aren't the only two issues.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Crtcl Rice Theory 2,432]

5 minutes ago, laylalex said:

I'm baffled by what "antiquating" is supposed to mean here.

In this context starting with a modern understanding of biology, medicine and civics, and antiquanting our beliefs and attitudes back to the early nineteenth century, with potentially lethal consequences. I am surprised you haven't heard the term.

Edited November 17, 2020 by CanAm1980

[fip & jim 452]

3 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

And it's not only a nanny state for those things, the massive infringement on basic freedoms like speech, privacy, and so on.. guns and healthcare aren't the only two issues.

Pretty sure freedom of speech is robustly protected in the UK. Pretty sure privacy is robustly protected in the UK. You're hilarious. 

[Ban Hammer 13,283]

8 minutes ago, fip & jim said:

Pretty sure freedom of speech is robustly protected in the UK. Pretty sure privacy is robustly protected in the UK. You're hilarious. 

that's hilarious.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/08/online-laws-threaten-freedom-of-speech-of-millions-of-britons

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/21/freedom-of-speech-online-witch-hunts-law--bbc

 

https://www.theweek.co.uk/97552/hate-speech-vs-free-speech-the-uk-laws

https://telecoms.com/507498/uk-house-of-lords-to-investigate-online-freedom-of-expression/

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ban Hammer

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

15 minutes ago, fip & jim said:

Pretty sure freedom of speech is robustly protected in the UK. Pretty sure privacy is robustly protected in the UK. You're hilarious. 

It isn't. Prior restraint, government level website bans, censorship laws, can't offend the wrong people, it's not even close and I haven't gotten to other freedoms yet (e.g. guns). So it makes sense that you can say, without reservation, that even though the UK government increasingly institutes narrow concepts of proper behavior and rightthink, people in the US need to be told what to do, even though in the US that's a horrific infringement, and the best defense of it (which isn't an argument at all relevant to the US) is "but we don't have mass shootings and have stellar healthcare!".

Edited November 17, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds