Florida Family Living an Immigration Nightmare

[almaty 19]

i agree with fischy...

[Caladan 19]

People seem really sympathetic. People get so mad at illegal immigrants because "I had to do things legally so so should they" but yet these people skipped a step and jumped the line ahead of you. They didn't read the directions or else they're lying about that and committed visa fraud. These are the real people who stole your cookie.

The last time this story was posted, people had a conniption and screeched "ten-year-ban!" Because they committed FRAUD by entering on a K-1 after they were already married. Last time people said they were stupid and confused the NOA2 with the consulate's instructions, so that's why they went to Japan. FRAUD! Sympathy makes the baby Jesus cry.

I guess people read the article this time. The consulate in Japan seemed to give them bad information and they've spent the last ten years paying for it. I hope they manage to secure the waiver.

[Jenn! 918]

Sympathy makes the baby Jesus cry.

OMG! :lol:

[Mrs.J06 4]

Anyway, the "innocent mistake" that they are talking about was their conscious decision, to get married after filing for a faince, K1 visa and before the visa was granted. After they were married, they did nothing to cancel the K1 and start the spousal visa process. Instead, they used the K1 for her to enter the country after it was granted.

Hardly an "innocent mistake" on their part. This was either an action in full awareness of the possible consequences, or an act of stupidity (although they don't strike me as people who didn't know better). But, this one is one the petitioner and the USC, not the USCIS.

Given the problems this has caused them I'd hardly imagine they would have chosen to do this if they had known the legal problems that it caused. Imagine trying to do this immigration process by yourself without VJ (which didn't exist 9 years ago) - fair to say that DIYers back then knew a lot less about the ins and outs of the process than we do now...

You don't need to do a lot of research to figure out that a "Fiance/e Visa" is not for married people.

[Caladan 19]

They called INS and were given bad information, information that told them they could change to a marriage visa once in the U.S. Haven't we all had the experience of calling USCIS and getting bad info, only to have it corrected by VJ?

[john_and_marlene 162]

Why do they (USCIS) interpret their labyrinthine set of rules so literally - to the point where an innocent mistake is regarded the same as if she had actually lied about say, a criminal past or made an admission of drug use.

Have they never heard of using their discretion?

It's not "their" set of rules. The rules are laws passed by congress. They don't get to choose whether they will follow them.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Even today the USCIS customer service call center gives out contradictory and flat-out wrong information, so the possibility of making a mistake is very real. And its not like lawyers are 100% infallible either - and people can and have paid a similar price for taking bad 3rd party advice.

I'm all for following the rules - but I'm not going to lambast someone who has been punished for failing to jump through every hoop of the small-print minutia - especially if that person had access to less than reliable information. Mistakes happen...

When we apply for these visas and LPR cards all of our futures are essentially held hostage by this monolithic bureaucracy - nothing that can be done about that - its the law; and I'll follow it to the best of my ability. That doesn't mean that the massively complex and seemingly arbitrary rules and ambiguous legal advice are anything but unjust.

I guess what I don't understand is why people are so keen to defend the bureaucracy.

Anyway, the "innocent mistake" that they are talking about was their conscious decision, to get married after filing for a faince, K1 visa and before the visa was granted. After they were married, they did nothing to cancel the K1 and start the spousal visa process. Instead, they used the K1 for her to enter the country after it was granted.

Hardly an "innocent mistake" on their part. This was either an action in full awareness of the possible consequences, or an act of stupidity (although they don't strike me as people who didn't know better). But, this one is one the petitioner and the USC, not the USCIS.

Given the problems this has caused them I'd hardly imagine they would have chosen to do this if they had known the legal problems that it caused. Imagine trying to do this immigration process by yourself without VJ (which didn't exist 9 years ago) - fair to say that DIYers back then knew a lot less about the ins and outs of the process than we do now...

You don't need to do a lot of research to figure out that a "Fiance/e Visa" is not for married people.

Mind if I ask to what extent you relied on the information on VJ (i.e. other people's experiences) to provide you with sufficient 'correct' info to file your case?

9 years ago these message boards and information resources didn't exist.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why do they (USCIS) interpret their labyrinthine set of rules so literally - to the point where an innocent mistake is regarded the same as if she had actually lied about say, a criminal past or made an admission of drug use.

Have they never heard of using their discretion?

It's not "their" set of rules. The rules are laws passed by congress. They don't get to choose whether they will follow them.

As I said - I just don't understand why people seem so keen to defend a monolithic bureaucracy whose rules are seemingly arbitrary, contradictory and potentially confusing. IMHO without the benefit of sites like VJ - this sort of thing would happen rather more frequently.

Edited June 26, 2007 by erekose

[ivona 0]

Anyway, the "innocent mistake" that they are talking about was their conscious decision, to get married after filing for a fiance, K1 visa and before the visa was granted. After they were married, they did nothing to cancel the K1 and start the spousal visa process. Instead, they used the K1 for her to enter the country after it was granted.

Hardly an "innocent mistake" on their part. This was either an action in full awareness of the possible consequences, or an act of stupidity (although they don't strike me as people who didn't know better). But, this one is one the petitioner and the USC, not the USCIS.

Given the problems this has caused them I'd hardly imagine they would have chosen to do this if they had known the legal problems that it caused. Imagine trying to do this immigration process by yourself without VJ (which didn't exist 9 years ago) - fair to say that DIYers back then knew a lot less about the ins and outs of the process than we do now...

Please excuse all spelling mistakes I have yet to make- this doesn't seem to be a good speeling day

VJ or not, each form is introduced to you with a page or two of instructions... and these aren't ignnorant, illiterate people...you should be able to tell the difference between something called finace and spousal visa just by using some common sense.

These people had to have known that they are misrepresenting themselves when she/ they entered the country; whether they knew of what the possible consequences were or not. For Gods sake, she had a fiance visa in her passport and unless she was drugged out of her mind at her wedding to completely black out the whole event, she had to have had been put in several situations where she was being addressed as his finace, and not his wife- if she didn't set the record straight she commited fraud.

The thing is, I don't have anything against these people or what they did. They made a decision to do what they did- if it had worked I would be the first to say "Good for you, you had to courage to not follow the rules and it paid off for you, even though I personally wouldn't be willing to risk everything like that".

But they didn't get away with it, it caught up with them and what I do find insulting is that they are now raising this huge media fuss about the USCIS being the big bad guy and them commiting an "innocent mistake". You tried to cheat the system and failed, take responsibilty and deal with the consequences instead of playing martyrs.

And again, I repeat, the kids are US Citizens- they do NOT need to be separated from their father, it was their choice for the children to leave the country with the mother- that was not a USCIS decision.

Edited June 26, 2007 by ivona

[john_and_marlene 162]

Why do they (USCIS) interpret their labyrinthine set of rules so literally - to the point where an innocent mistake is regarded the same as if she had actually lied about say, a criminal past or made an admission of drug use.

Have they never heard of using their discretion?

It's not "their" set of rules. The rules are laws passed by congress. They don't get to choose whether they will follow them.

As I said - I just don't understand why people seem so keen to defend a monolithic bureaucracy whose rules are seemingly arbitrary, contradictory and potentially confusing. IMHO without the benefit of sites like VJ - this sort of thing would happen rather more frequently.

That's not a defense of a bereaucracy. Its a defense for why the USCIS didn't use discretion to not follow a law that was not of their making.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Anyway, the "innocent mistake" that they are talking about was their conscious decision, to get married after filing for a faince, K1 visa and before the visa was granted. After they were married, they did nothing to cancel the K1 and start the spousal visa process. Instead, they used the K1 for her to enter the country after it was granted.

Hardly an "innocent mistake" on their part. This was either an action in full awareness of the possible consequences, or an act of stupidity (although they don't strike me as people who didn't know better). But, this one is one the petitioner and the USC, not the USCIS.

Given the problems this has caused them I'd hardly imagine they would have chosen to do this if they had known the legal problems that it caused. Imagine trying to do this immigration process by yourself without VJ (which didn't exist 9 years ago) - fair to say that DIYers back then knew a lot less about the ins and outs of the process than we do now...

VJ or not, each form is introduced to you with a page or two of instructions... and these aren't ignnorant, illiterate people...you should be able to tell the difference between something called finace and spousal visa just by using some common sense.

These people had to have known that they are misrepresenting themselves when she/ they entered the country; whether they knew of what the possible consequences were or not. For Gods sake, she had a fiance visa in her passport and unless she was drugged out of her mind at her wedding to completely black out the whole event, she had to have had been put in several situations where she was being addressed as his finace, and not his wife- if she didn't set the record straight she commited fraud.

The thing is, I don't have anything against these people or what they did. They made a decision to do what they did- if it had worked I would be the first to say "Good for you, you had to courage to not follow the rules and it paid off for you, even though I personally wouldn't be willing to risk everything like that".

But they didn't get away with it, it caught up with them and what I do find insulting is that they are now raising this huge media fuss about the USCIS being the big bad guy and them commiting an "innocent mistake". You tried to cheat the system and failed, take responsibilty and deal with the consequences instead of playing martyrs.

And again, I repeat, the kids are US Citizens- they do NOT need to be separated from their father, it was their choice for the children to leave the country with the mother- that was not a USCIS decision.

You're assuming that the instructions on the forms aren't contradictory, confusing and potentially ambiguous.

You're also saying that with a degree of insider knowledge about how this process works (via resources like VJ)- information that wasn't available to these people 9 years ago. But its more or less irrelevant anyway as the 'mistake' originated with bad info they got from the consulate.

Edited June 26, 2007 by erekose

[ivona 0]

You're assuming that the instructions on the forms aren't contradictory, confusing and potentially ambiguous.

You're also saying that with a degree of insider knowledge about how this process works (via resources like VJ)- information that wasn't available to these people 9 years ago. But its more or less irrelevant anyway as the 'mistake' originated with bad info they got from the consulate.

I realize my husband and I were really lucky in everything going really smoothly so far, both with K1 and the AOS, but I have to say that the paperwork demanded by the USCIS is not THAT bad or THAT complicated. I had much worse paperwork experiences in Croatia. We also filled out all of our forms based entirely on the instructions given in front and not following the VJ filling forms instructions.

I admit that me being my paranoid self I read all instructions at least five times before filling them out, but still....

I would also venture to say that after nine years I'm not so sure that what the consulate told them was really said exactly like that. Not saying it wasnt, but just that knowing human memory and the ability to twist the memory to fit your own frame of mind probably played a part- seeing how this was nine years ago.

Also, perhaps nine years ago the resources we have now weren't available- but over the years they became more and more so and they themselves say that this didin't just happen all of a sudden. The whole enchilada lasted for a long time before she actually left the country, at any point in that time they could have made a different choice. They could have just refiled for a spousal visa. What about immigration attorneys? Not all of them suck...

They made their choices and they led them to where they are today....

[peejay 327]

People seem really sympathetic. People get so mad at illegal immigrants because "I had to do things legally so so should they" but yet these people skipped a step and jumped the line ahead of you. They didn't read the directions or else they're lying about that and committed visa fraud. These are the real people who stole your cookie.

Yes, these people screwed up and they gotta live with it, but so should the 12 - 20 million illegal aliens that have broken into the USA by hook or crook. A preponderence of them knew quite well that they were breaking the law and they damned sure shouldn't get rewarded for doing it either. Unless the law is enforced regularly and consistently...there is no credbility. And there has been zero credibility since the amnesty debacle of 1986 which the morons in Washington D.C. are hell bent on repeating.

They are all stealing your cookie. But I think the illegal aliens have stolen a lot more cookies than folks like this hapless, naive couple ever will.

Edited June 26, 2007 by peejay

[Caladan 19]

It's really easy to see how this could happen. You figure it operates according to common sense. Gee, INS doesn't want to keep real couples apart, and it's silly to think that we'd have to start all over just because we married the person we said we were going to. All the information goes to the same place anyway. We still want to live in the U.S. We've had all the shots and everything done. But we better check, so let's call the consulate. Good news! The consulate said we can just keep going with the fiancee visa and update it later!

[Alex+R 0]

They called INS and were given bad information, information that told them they could change to a marriage visa once in the U.S. Haven't we all had the experience of calling USCIS and getting bad info, only to have it corrected by VJ?

I feel so awful for people this stuff happens to. Without VJ how would we ever know if the info we get is right or not? I hope this guy's PR campaign is successful, but who knows.