I'm lost. It doesn't make sense to me.

[TracyTN 237]

I think part of the problem is its been tolerated here for so long. To try and close the barn door after the horse has bolted is likely what is now causing this confusion and consternation.

[no name 1]

'Tis true there are two sides to each coin. Thus the symbol of the scales in my profession. Enough coins will tip them one way or the other.

That's only if people want to see both sides.

I think part of the problem is its been tolerated here for so long. To try and close the barn door after the horse has bolted is likely what is now causing this confusion and consternation.

And it keeps coming up, with no resolution or new rules.

[Fandango 1,440]

In all honestly, any comment, response, logic, reason, humor, and etc that is contrary to another person's belief or thought process at that particular time could be considered instigating. There is truly no direct answer. The only thing that we can do is attempt to adhere to the TOS and to be civil / respectful to one another. Other than that, we could spend countless hours discussing this one...

Cheers!!!

Sheriff Uling

Wait, are we seriously trying to decide the best way to determine "who started it"? Aren't we all responsible for each of our own actions, baited or not?

The two most well put, short & sweet posts of this thread and I couldn't agree more!

[ChasUK 0]

Oh, Chas, I *totally* agree with you on this one.

Lisa, you know what he's getting at no matter how many times the two of you go 'round about it. Yes, you're right...it takes two to tango, just don't respond and all that... but he's also right and, IMO, you haven't really answered what he was asking. He was basically saying...why should the onus be on the one who IS BEING BAITED not to fight? Why shouldn't the responsibility at least ALSO lie with the one who is doing the baiting? Maybe I missed if you said that outright somewhere, Chas, and again, I don't mean to be putting words in your mouth,but I think that's what you meant, and I totally agree with it.

To me, it smacks of a schoolyard with a playground bully. In comparison to what we're discussing, the one being bullied would be pulled into the principal's office because he hit the big bully bacl who hit him first....doesn't really make much sense...yanno?? M.

Gupt, even tho you weren't speaking to me, I'm gonna comment on your last post anyway...

No, can't do anything about something that wasn't done yet...but in MANY (not all) instances, people doing the baiting have a history of it. These posters need to be watched a bit more closely when the mods can be here,warned once or twice,and banned for a time if it continues. A lot of people won't agree with me on that, but that's what an opinion is for, and that's mine on this particular subject. To go with the playground analogy again, a bully doesn't normally just bully once in a great while...they usually kind have a rep for it you know?

Exactly. You didn't misunderstand me, nor did you put words in my mouth. In fact you captured my sentiment precisely. Thanks.

You all need to learn to differentiate between you are being baited just as much as the rest of the board is being baited.

If you ever feel that you are being baited, it doesn't mean you have to rise to the occasion. That's a personal choice, no?

Well apparantly baiting someone is a violation of TOS and demands some form of action. If the bait is is set, then I think you have the right to rise accordingly. Why let the one doing the baiting have the last word and feel they have the upper hand in such situations.

I think I have seen many people "bait" you Lisa, rightly or wrongly, but I have never seen you, NOT rise to the occasion.

Then you haven't been paying close enough attn

The reason why I say that is I feel it's all personal responsibility. You (generic you here) want to call someone names...go right ahead and do so. But take the responsibility for it and not stand behind 'oh so and so was baiting me'. Its your choice.

Whether or not any threads are started in malice is not the point...it's how they are reacted to that lies with the person doing the reacting. And we can all get along much better once we keep that in mind.

That's like saying it's ok for somebody to stand and throw rocks at a window, but the guy on the inside of the window is responsible for being unhappy about that.

Spot on Rebecca. thank you too.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Becca,

The record will reveal more than one firestarter, depending on who the researchers are.

Yodrak

Let alone if it was simply a match that started the fire or a molotov cocktail... but hey... did you see my emoticons? That makes it OK...

Or makes it somehow less passive-aggressive. Personally, I'd rather the person tell me directly to f.o. instead of 'hint' towards it with emotes and such.

*EXACTLY* what I was going to say.

These are the posts I couldn't agree with more...you all beat me to it!

Chas, glad I understood you correctly. I think quite a few of us are on the same page with this.

Wait, are we seriously trying to decide the best way to determine "who started it"? Aren't we all responsible for each of our own actions, baited or not?

Sure, but I don't think that we can deny that we have our fair share of people around here who make it their purpose to "wind people up" and just generally cause trouble. Sometimes they even announce that they're doing it. I guess if the consensus of VJ or else Ewok's opinion alone is that this is ok, then so be it.

I think part of the problem is its been tolerated here for so long. To try and close the barn door after the horse has bolted is likely what is now causing this confusion and consternation.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

There is *so* much passive agressive stuff that goes on around here. Lisa, you do it A LOT. I have been known to do it, moreso lately (and not proud of the fact), as well. I agree with Tracy on this one...I would rather have someone tell me exactly what they think of me than tippytoe around it or make a little or whathaveyou. Let's face it, when those things occur, no one is really fooling anyone else...we're not stupid people here...and it just causes more problems overall. No, "you" can't eliminate that entirely on a message board, but if it's being done consistently, it should be addressed. Again, JMO. M.

[Alex+R 0]

Before VJ it had been quite awhile since I'd participated in a forum, so forgive me if I just don't understand.

But why is it so important to alter and regulate the natural way people talk to each other? Are we becoming some sort of utopian message board that will no longer tolerate passive-agressive comments? Why must a forum have social rules that differ from those of real life? Some people are just a$$holes and we certainly all act like one once in awhile. So what? Why must it be addressed? Why can't the mods step in when things get too nasty, but allow people to sometimes be unfriendly to each other? This is starting to feel like a kindergarten classroom and it's something I'm having a terrible time getting my head around.

[cheeky^Wolf 0]

To me, rude behavior is rude behavior and if we're not tolerating it then we shouldn't tolerate it from anyone no matter what the cause of it.

EXACTLY!!!

Divorce, form of ADD, fear of flying etc should NOT be a reason for people to be excused from being civil to eachother.

But alas....

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

I think that people can say whatever they want as long as it does not cross the TOS. As people start approaching those limits then they might be reminded by the mods to tone down things. WHen things go past the line and violate the TOS then they may get moderated. When possible I think warnings first are good for people that slip up every once in a while. This all of course depends on if a mod spots a problem early enough. Once things are out of control moderation may occur with out warnings to tone down things (since things are already out of control).

Bottom line... we are all adults; we should act and treat each other as such.

[jodee 30]

What ever happened to the phrase we are all taught as kids?

IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

Read the bait, ignore it, the baiter gets bored because of no retaliation and goes away.

Thats what I was always taught as a kid. If somebody calls you names or teases you, its only because they want to get a rise from you. I was told to ignore whatever they were saying, they would eventually get bored with the lack of response, and would eventually move on to someone else to pick on

Its pretty much the same scenario here, its like a school yard bully incident most of the time.

Just my opinion.

Jodee

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

Yep. Most underused feature of the site: Ignore Feature.

Really, it is a feature you can enable to ignore members.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Yeah, that is very true and you both (all) have a point. That said, I'm not talking about people that flip out or have a bad day or get biotchy once in a while. I'm talking about people who consistently irritate and seem to have no other purpose around here sometimes. If my kid does that, I'm going to put up with it for a little while, and then I'm going to tell him to knock it the heck OFF or this, this and then THIS is going to happen.

No, Alex...we don't have to be Utopia. This isn't directed at you (or even anyone actually, as MANY people here have adopted these words....) No, we don't have to be all rainbows, lollipops and sunshine. I get that. Why, however, when we are here for information and a good time, do we have to put up with people being ignorant for no other reason than...they can. ...and furthermore, they seem to get off on the fact... pardon my crassness. It's like...well, whatcha gonna do about it, huh?? *giggle* You know?

For the most part, and it took me quite some time to reach this point, it honestly does NOT bother me anymore. Other people moreso, some not at all. I just think ..why? If you're a rude, arrogant, knowitall, gottaberightallthetime, in-your-face and I'm-gonna-tell-it-like-it-"is" (without really knowing if that's how it IS anyway! *eye roll*) then why even stick around here??? Sure, everyone has the right to be here unless/until they get banned or whatever...but ..if you can't play nice, with ME anyway...I don't want you in my game!...kind of like:

We're all quoting the things the people can do NOT to respond to those type of people, so I'll repeat one of the adages from MY mom (and no, that honestly wasn't a "stab" at you, Cheeky) "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say anything at all."

Just MY POV. M.

Edited June 27, 2007 by MichelleandCraig

[MichelleandCraig 1]

I agree with you too, Jodee, except for one little detail. It really chaps my behind that the person being harassed, or picked at, or whatever you want to say..is just supposed to sit mute until the other person decides to move on. I was always taught that you punish the perp..not the victim! (and I don't mean "victim" here....like a big dramatic, people are being "victimized" It was just a word to illustrate my point. Ya know? M.

[Jenn! 918]

What ever happened to the phrase we are all taught as kids?

IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

Read the bait, ignore it, the baiter gets bored because of no retaliation and goes away.

Thats what I was always taught as a kid. If somebody calls you names or teases you, its only because they want to get a rise from you. I was told to ignore whatever they were saying, they would eventually get bored with the lack of response, and would eventually move on to someone else to pick on

Its pretty much the same scenario here, its like a school yard bully incident most of the time.

Just my opinion.

Jodee

I've found that with certain posters, even months of consistent ignoring does nothing to stop the baiting. Some people are especially persistent, I guess.

[TracyTN 237]

Before VJ it had been quite awhile since I'd participated in a forum, so forgive me if I just don't understand.

But why is it so important to alter and regulate the natural way people talk to each other? Are we becoming some sort of utopian message board that will no longer tolerate passive-agressive comments? Why must a forum have social rules that differ from those of real life? Some people are just a$$holes and we certainly all act like one once in awhile. So what? Why must it be addressed? Why can't the mods step in when things get too nasty, but allow people to sometimes be unfriendly to each other? This is starting to feel like a kindergarten classroom and it's something I'm having a terrible time getting my head around.

A utopian society? Please. Its insulting to insinuate that those of us who object to a few things here are expecting lollipops and rainbows on a daily basis.

The overall mood on this board has gone downhill. I'm not the first one to say it, or the only one to have noticed it. It seems as if the 'acceptable' and 'in' thing to do is antagonize people just for the hell of it, or follow people around the board whom you may not like personally and try to belittle them where ever possible. Sure, it takes two to argue - but it would be a nice change of pace around here to see someone say 'I just really think we ought to not go there' and walk away instead of fighting until the death/making damn sure they get the 'last word'.

As has been said before, its a freaking message board - and if it makes one feel self important to get the last word in an argument, or belittle someone just for fun - then that person has got some serious psychological issues, and it might behoove them to spend their message board time with a shrink instead.

I have seen newbies here say they were 'afraid' to post because they'd be jumped on or ridiculed for doing so. I have had some PM me and thank me for a response to a question and then say, 'Everyone else in the thread was so mean to me.' Is this really what we want?

I don't think its expecting 'utopia' to have newbies feel like they can jump in and have a laugh or a question answered without being ridiculed. This has nothing to do with some noobs apparent inability to read the guides before they post 200 questions in 200 separate threads - which frustrates me, too, but even at that, I have learned that days like that mean I just have to pretend the 'reply' button doesn't work. (I'm still working on perfecting that, I might add!

I think mods who are willing to step in and say we're sick of all of this, too, is a step in the right direction, but its also incumbant on the rest of us to recognize what's going on, say that we don't like it, and do our part in changing it.

If that is 'utopia' in your opinion, so be it. To me, its simply asking for a little common decency.