Couple has no home, kids together but still considered spouses, Ontario’s top court rules

[Steeleballz 7,550]

38 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

Normally I'd disagree that this is/needs to be a trend, but after being inundated with zoomer heuristics, I totally believe that a notarized prenup should be a mandatory part of marriage licenses.

 

    I don't know that it has to be a trend, but when there is a significant amount of money involved, or when one person is bringing significantly more assets into the relationship, it should be something to seriously consider. A good prenup works for both parties. I thought it was kind of strange in this case, since they had both been through a divorce in the past, so there really shouldn't have been any misconceptions about why there might be a need for one. 

 

   

[laylalex 7,300]

10 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

   It was his choice to support her. It is unlikely she could have or would have been able to quit her job without his agreeing to provide support. It's the same reason courts award alimony when one person gives up a career to remain at home. All this really boils down to is that the court basically decided their relationship met the minimum definition to pass as a common law marriage. They are not the first couple to inadvertently end up in such a situation nor will they be the last. As I said, I would recommend people avoid getting in that situation without a legal agreement in place. Don't let the courts decide for you.

From my own experience, at least here in California (where there is no common law marriage), it comes down to whether the spouse who stopped working did so with the understanding that the other spouse would provide support. Is it fair to penalize someone who gave up the ability to support themselves at least in part because the other spouse said, I got you, don't worry your pretty little head?

 

When there is a big imbalance between one spouse and the other in terms of assets and earning potential, a prenup is really important. I had one, even though at first my ex and I were both resistant. We eventually listened to our parents and got one. We agreed in writing that I would stop working after marriage (I actually worked longer than we originally agreed) and I would stay home and be a full time housewife/mother (latter didn't happen) with him providing all the income and financial support to run the home and our lives. I didn't have a big important job or anything, but I had a clear career path and I liked where I worked and enjoyed the industry I was in. By the time my marriage was over, I had real difficulty starting over where I left off -- too old (let's be honest) to go back in where I had left off, and too inexperienced to go for the roles I should have been going for had I stayed working. I tried to call in favors and made a lot of cold calls and applied for every job I thought might be an okay fit here in the LA area and up in the Bay Area. I have had to start over in a completely different line of work, which I was really enjoying and was getting ready to start my own business in, but then COVID hit. The timing was bad. 

 

But after we broke up, I was in no place emotionally speaking to look for work immediately. My whole life had been blown up, the man I loved had left me, and I had no money of my own. The money has helped put me in a place near where I was before the divorce, though less than if we'd stayed together. But I have to say this -- even with a prenup, the lawyers still fought it out for a long time, arguing over this or that. My ex (and his dad) did some dumb stuff to hide assets before the prenup that the judge wasn't impressed by, which just led to more money coming my way to make the issue go away. 

 

And yes, we are working on a prenup right now. I had been preparing the I-944 for his AOS anyway (which we may not need now), so I have a full picture of everything he has, and likewise he for me. We are keeping everything separate coming in, and his income will be his separate property during the marriage, as will mine. Any property we buy together we will purchase as husband and wife, unless we decide otherwise and agree in writing. Our bargaining positions are not as unequal as Voldy and mine were going in, but I have the advantage this time and that means I need to act in good faith. He is a really smart, really capable guy who will be able to take care of himself if we do split, but if he needs support payments, that is now on the table. We have hired good lawyers who are guiding us right now instead of pitching us against each other. Do not worry, your boy Alex will be just fine.  

[Steeleballz 7,550]

36 minutes ago, laylalex said:

From my own experience, at least here in California (where there is no common law marriage), it comes down to whether the spouse who stopped working did so with the understanding that the other spouse would provide support. Is it fair to penalize someone who gave up the ability to support themselves at least in part because the other spouse said, I got you, don't worry your pretty little head?

 

When there is a big imbalance between one spouse and the other in terms of assets and earning potential, a prenup is really important. I had one, even though at first my ex and I were both resistant. We eventually listened to our parents and got one. We agreed in writing that I would stop working after marriage (I actually worked longer than we originally agreed) and I would stay home and be a full time housewife/mother (latter didn't happen) with him providing all the income and financial support to run the home and our lives. I didn't have a big important job or anything, but I had a clear career path and I liked where I worked and enjoyed the industry I was in. By the time my marriage was over, I had real difficulty starting over where I left off -- too old (let's be honest) to go back in where I had left off, and too inexperienced to go for the roles I should have been going for had I stayed working. I tried to call in favors and made a lot of cold calls and applied for every job I thought might be an okay fit here in the LA area and up in the Bay Area. I have had to start over in a completely different line of work, which I was really enjoying and was getting ready to start my own business in, but then COVID hit. The timing was bad. 

 

But after we broke up, I was in no place emotionally speaking to look for work immediately. My whole life had been blown up, the man I loved had left me, and I had no money of my own. The money has helped put me in a place near where I was before the divorce, though less than if we'd stayed together. But I have to say this -- even with a prenup, the lawyers still fought it out for a long time, arguing over this or that. My ex (and his dad) did some dumb stuff to hide assets before the prenup that the judge wasn't impressed by, which just led to more money coming my way to make the issue go away. 

 

And yes, we are working on a prenup right now. I had been preparing the I-944 for his AOS anyway (which we may not need now), so I have a full picture of everything he has, and likewise he for me. We are keeping everything separate coming in, and his income will be his separate property during the marriage, as will mine. Any property we buy together we will purchase as husband and wife, unless we decide otherwise and agree in writing. Our bargaining positions are not as unequal as Voldy and mine were going in, but I have the advantage this time and that means I need to act in good faith. He is a really smart, really capable guy who will be able to take care of himself if we do split, but if he needs support payments, that is now on the table. We have hired good lawyers who are guiding us right now instead of pitching us against each other. Do not worry, your boy Alex will be just fine.  

 

 

    I think it's a pretty straight forward thing when one person gives up a career and the other person is supporting them financially. They both made some kind of mutual agreement to come to that point. I think it's understandable when people are younger and maybe haven't given it a lot of thought and are more focused on the romantic side of things (and maybe not as well off financially) that they don't really give it as much thought. No excuse in the case of the two in the article though. 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Steeleballz

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

 

   It was his choice to support her. It is unlikely she could have or would have been able to quit her job without his agreeing to provide support. It's the same reason courts award alimony when one person gives up a career to remain at home. All this really boils down to is that the court basically decided their relationship met the minimum definition to pass as a common law marriage. They are not the first couple to inadvertently end up in such a situation nor will they be the last. As I said, I would recommend people avoid getting in that situation without a legal agreement in place. Don't let the courts decide for you.

The courts ward alimony based on nothing more than splitting up.  Alimony is technically intended to be paid for life (yeah, I was shocked when I researched this recently for a neighbor who is 89, was married for 30 years, and has been giving up HALF his pension for 25 years to the woman who left him for another man).

 

To be fair, they were not married, which is NORMALLY what is required for the courts to get involved.  They didn't live together, had separate bank accounts, jobs, and homes.  And yet... he got bank-raped by a parasite.  Also, the original court finding was $53,000 a month for the rest of his life.  The Canadian Supreme Court (or whatever it was) ruled it down to $50,000 a month for 10 years.  Lucky guy, eh?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 hour ago, laylalex said:

But after we broke up, I was in no place emotionally speaking to look for work immediately. My whole life had been blown up, the man I loved had left me, and I had no money of my own. The money has helped put me in a place near where I was before the divorce, though less than if we'd stayed together. But I have to say this -- even with a prenup, the lawyers still fought it out for a long time, arguing over this or that. My ex (and his dad) did some dumb stuff to hide assets before the prenup that the judge wasn't impressed by, which just led to more money coming my way to make the issue go away. 

 

That is nothing more than a weak excuse.  Divorce is not the ned of the world, and certainly not a reason to quit trying to do better.  I was working when I got divorced, and kept right on working.  And am worth much more today than I was then because I didn't use excuses, I used work as a way to get thru an emotionally tough time.    Millions of people get divorced, and get over it.  If you want women to be equal to men, and level the BS "toxic masculinity" playing field you like to talk about, then woman-up and go back to work and support yourself.  Why do you need a man to take care of you?  If I can do it, and millions of other men and women can do it, then so can you.  If you choose to.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

al·i·mo·ny

  (ăl′ə-mō′nē)

n. pl. al·i·mo·nies

1. Law An allowance for support made under court order to a divorced person by the former spouse, usually the chiefprovider during the marriage. Alimony may also be granted without a divorce, as between legally separated persons.

2. A means of livelihood; maintenance.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

34 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

The courts ward alimony based on nothing more than splitting up.  Alimony is technically intended to be paid for life (yeah, I was shocked when I researched this recently for a neighbor who is 89, was married for 30 years, and has been giving up HALF his pension for 25 years to the woman who left him for another man).

 

To be fair, they were not married, which is NORMALLY what is required for the courts to get involved.  They didn't live together, had separate bank accounts, jobs, and homes.  And yet... he got bank-raped by a parasite.  Also, the original court finding was $53,000 a month for the rest of his life.  The Canadian Supreme Court (or whatever it was) ruled it down to $50,000 a month for 10 years.  Lucky guy, eh?

 

   Ontario law uses 1/2 to 1 year of alimony for each year of marriage, becoming permanent after 20 years of marriage. The amount is derived by formula. So they treated this case as a marriage for all intents and purposes. I don't consider luck to play any part here. As I said, never leave anything for the court to decide if you can help it. Especially when you know better. They could have had a prior agreement. They could have settled out of court (after the breakup). Neither of those are perfect, but they are mutual agreement. The court takes that decision away from you.

[laylalex 7,300]

 

36 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

That is nothing more than a weak excuse.  Divorce is not the ned of the world, and certainly not a reason to quit trying to do better.  I was working when I got divorced, and kept right on working.  And am worth much more today than I was then because I didn't use excuses, I used work as a way to get thru an emotionally tough time.    Millions of people get divorced, and get over it.  If you want women to be equal to men, and level the BS "toxic masculinity" playing field you like to talk about, then woman-up and go back to work and support yourself.  Why do you need a man to take care of you?  If I can do it, and millions of other men and women can do it, then so can you.  If you choose to.

Well, I had a nervous collapse, so there you go. My mental health wasn't conducive to working, and Voldy continued to pay the mortgage and until we sold the home later that year. Did I tell you he pretty much emptied our only joint account? I was left with almost nothing until the petition was filed and an interim order was put in place. I was fully dependent on him because that was the way he liked it and that was the only way I'd learned how to exist over the years. As I have mentioned many, many times on here, we negotiated a prenup. He agreed to terms, and so did I. He doesn't get an "out" anymore than I got an out -- I gave up my job and stayed at home and lost some years I could have used working. Lesson learned. Won't happen again.

 

Everyone is different -- some people find work a way to cope, and to be honest, I have found that is also true for me. But it was a particularly bad time for me, and if I'd had a chronic illness that was physical and prevented me from working, I wonder if you'd find that more understandable. I would have been of no use to any employer for quite some time, a complete waste of money to train. Better to heal and be a strong and able worker. I get what you say but I had a particular set of circumstances that made work impossible at the time. Once I felt well enough, I tried to get a job but failed for quite a while. It took a career shift and starting over from the bottom. I can't wait to get back to work, once a few things fall into place (trying to work on that).  It is all experience, and I have learned a lot. 

 

And what's Al's is his and what's mine is mine now, unless we agree otherwise. Money stuff always makes things complicated. He got shafted in his divorce, outmaneuvered by her family who really screwed him down. He rebuilt his life from essentially scratch after then, and supports a child and makes spousal support payments that end in a few years. Until recently, he supported his mother and sister as well. He's spent his entire adult life supporting his family. The least I can do is make no demands upon his money. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

18 minutes ago, laylalex said:

 

Well, I had a nervous collapse, so there you go. My mental health wasn't conducive to working, and Voldy continued to pay the mortgage and until we sold the home later that year. Did I tell you he pretty much emptied our only joint account? I was left with almost nothing until the petition was filed and an interim order was put in place. I was fully dependent on him because that was the way he liked it and that was the only way I'd learned how to exist over the years. As I have mentioned many, many times on here, we negotiated a prenup. He agreed to terms, and so did I. He doesn't get an "out" anymore than I got an out -- I gave up my job and stayed at home and lost some years I could have used working. Lesson learned. Won't happen again.

 

Everyone is different -- some people find work a way to cope, and to be honest, I have found that is also true for me. But it was a particularly bad time for me, and if I'd had a chronic illness that was physical and prevented me from working, I wonder if you'd find that more understandable. I would have been of no use to any employer for quite some time, a complete waste of money to train. Better to heal and be a strong and able worker. I get what you say but I had a particular set of circumstances that made work impossible at the time. Once I felt well enough, I tried to get a job but failed for quite a while. It took a career shift and starting over from the bottom. I can't wait to get back to work, once a few things fall into place (trying to work on that).  It is all experience, and I have learned a lot. 

 

And what's Al's is his and what's mine is mine now, unless we agree otherwise. Money stuff always makes things complicated. He got shafted in his divorce, outmaneuvered by her family who really screwed him down. He rebuilt his life from essentially scratch after then, and supports a child and makes spousal support payments that end in a few years. Until recently, he supported his mother and sister as well. He's spent his entire adult life supporting his family. The least I can do is make no demands upon his money. 

Yes, I would understand a physical illness much more than the alternative of "nervous collapse".  I suffered when I got divorced, I was depressed, I didn't want to go to work.  It's pretty much normal when one is the victim of a spouse who no longer wants things to work.  And yet... people keep on keeping on.  

 

So you made some bad choices, and your ex had to pay for them.  Congrats, you are the among the many women who take advantage of men when the divorce happens.  And yet you like to talk about "toxic masculinity", yet you left the marriage with more than you started it with.  Doesn't seem fair, but I guess that's just the way the cookie crumbles.  (Wasn't it you that left him for Alex?  I forget.)

 

As for the last paragraph, Al will give up half of everything he has once he says "I Do" (AKA "I shouldn't have, but I did).  Even if he's too naive to know it today, that's what it will end up being.  The only thing this thread has shown is that it no longer requires a marriage certificate to ruin a man's life.  Just giving much of anything to a woman can do the same thing.  

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

31 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

   Ontario law uses 1/2 to 1 year of alimony for each year of marriage, becoming permanent after 20 years of marriage. The amount is derived by formula. So they treated this case as a marriage for all intents and purposes. I don't consider luck to play any part here. As I said, never leave anything for the court to decide if you can help it. Especially when you know better. They could have had a prior agreement. They could have settled out of court (after the breakup). Neither of those are perfect, but they are mutual agreement. The court takes that decision away from you.

In what alternate universe do separate bank accounts, separate domiciles, separate incomes, no joint kids and no marriage certificate equal marriage?  He tried to get her to sign prenups, but she refused, though she did accept his proposals.  She is nothing more than a parasite, and this guy has learned a very powerful and painful lesson.  I will be sharing this story with every single male I talk to for a long time to come in the hope that they don't totally waste their lives on the fairer sex who WILL take them to the cleaners when the split happens.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

4 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

In what alternate universe do separate bank accounts, separate domiciles, separate incomes, no joint kids and no marriage certificate equal marriage?  He tried to get her to sign prenups, but she refused, though she did accept his proposals.  She is nothing more than a parasite, and this guy has learned a very powerful and painful lesson.  I will be sharing this story with every single male I talk to for a long time to come in the hope that they don't totally waste their lives on the fairer sex who WILL take them to the cleaners when the split happens.

 

  The alternate universe where you allow a court decide everything for you that you should have decided for yourself. The guy has millions in assets. He was in his 50's, not his 20's. If you want a prenup, and the person you are in a relationship with doesn't? Here's the real lesson. That's decision time. Walk away if you need to. Don't wait 10 years till the breakup to learn the lesson you already knew. He made a bad decision years ago. Now it caught up to him. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

24 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  The alternate universe where you allow a court decide everything for you that you should have decided for yourself. The guy has millions in assets. He was in his 50's, not his 20's. If you want a prenup, and the person you are in a relationship with doesn't? Here's the real lesson. That's decision time. Walk away if you need to. Don't wait 10 years till the breakup to learn the lesson you already knew. He made a bad decision years ago. Now it caught up to him. 

We don't know what his timeline was.  And he DID try to walk away.  But that didn't matter, even though it should have.  Stop trying to defend this asinine court decision, the likes of which we have never seen before.  Thankfully, it isn't happening in the US (yet).

 

The court had no business deciding how this split up went down.  And it WOULD not have, except that the parasite that he had been supporting for years decide to take him to court.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Voice of Reason

[laylalex 7,300]

Well, should have known better than to expect any sympathy or understanding!  I only hope you never experience what I went through. I wasn't just very, very sad -- I was very, very sick. We are all different creatures; our brains are all wired differently. I have -- I know I have -- done a good job getting better and growing up a lot. We are only what our experiences and circumstances are -- I would never presume to say, yeah, my way is the best for others. It's just the way things turned out for me. 

 

Prenups -- at least out here -- take the uncertainty out of a split, or at least they should. My last one would have been straightforward but for my ex's bad behavior in hiding assets before the prenup was signed. That's a no no. I signed in good faith, he didn't. Al and I have laid it all out there and I have no reason to believe he is hiding anything from me. I manage our accounts so I have a very good idea anyway of our liquid assets. 

 

And to be honest, the prenup protects me more than him. I have more than he does, and he doesn't want any of it. If I didn't agree to a prenup, I'd be the one hung out to dry potentially. So the door swings both ways.  

 

And Voldy left me for the record. He was convinced I was cheating on him, which I wasn't. I was trying to figure out if I could get out of my marriage at the time, but I wasn't brave enough. Abuse does some awful stuff to the brain to make you think you're trapped, when really you had the key to the dungeon the whole time. I'm not the same person I was then and I'm very much a work in progress, but I like to think I'm moving in the right direction. 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

6 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

We don't know what his timeline was.  And he DID try to walk away.  But that didn't matter, even though it should have.  Stop trying to defend this asinine court decision, the likes of which we have never seen before.  Thankfully, it isn't happening in the US (yet).

 

The court had no business deciding how this split up went down.  And it WOULD not have, except that the parasite that he had been supporting for years decide to take him to court.

 

      She argued that they had a conjugal relationship under the common law of Ontario and the court agreed. The law is relatively clear. It considers not just cohabitation, but also sexual and emotional relationship, financial support and interdependence, children, and social interconnection. That is why the court exists in that situation. It's also why prenuptual agreements exist.