Waiting for a NOA2 from VSC for your I-129F?

[Bill y Bella 0]

Well...in TRYING to stay positive.... (PMS day???) if we look at how many K1 Petitions are on record as posted on VJ over the last 3 months it states around 60. Over the last SIX months UNDER 170 actually filed k1 visas from here on VJ. If you think of the staggering numbers of petitions filed that DONT register here....we are but a drop in the bucket...so by CHANCE...maybe we haven't had approvals...but doesn't mean they aren't working. I admit...its discouraging...and that the HARDEST thing is lack of information as to WHY and what is being done and any expected dates for improvement. So with that in mind...and armed with numbers and statistics, I placed a call to my senators office NOT to ask for help on my petition...BUT...to ask for help in contacting VCS directly for us to find out what the hold up is. I let them know it seems to us our government is standing still and on top of that emphasized how difficult it is to wait with NO information. How would they like having an election....and then having to wait for who knows how long for the outcome???? Hmm..not sure our politicians would like that to much.... So in my most professional tone...(mind u I have the voice of a 22 year old....in a 43 year old body, how professional CAN that sound???) I pleaded the case. A caseworker will see what can be done, who to contact. I made sure they understood...I don't want specific PETITION information.

By the way....what do the representatives in the customer service center get paid to actually do if ALL they can tell us is WHAT we see on the website???? Why not just use VRU's.....and move all the reps into adjudication and use our tax dollars wisely. Hmmmmmm....its a voting year this coming year....I say we raise up...and be heard....Everyone should call their senators offices and flood them with demands on answers to why we are waiitng....watching other centers approvals fly by....and we feel at a stand still......just information is all we need to ease the pain of seperation.

Either way....today is the day God has made...let us rejoice and be glad in it. Its just the world we live in for today...tomorrow our world will change when our loved ones come home to be at our sides.

Happy Ramadan to those who celebrate with me!!

I agree with almost all of that. Thanks for taking the inititative and trying to get some answers! I hope your senator comes through with some help.

I do have a hard time matching up to your figures on the number of petitons filed however. I come up with numbers much higher than yours. Are your figures on a per month basis? For VSC only?

For K1 petitions submitted by VJ members for all service centers I come up with:

March - August : 953 = 159 / month

June - August: 392 (Less than half of the 6 month total but August may still increase the Jun - Aug total. ) = 131 / month

June: 141 (looks like an average month)

July : 210 (big month!)

August: 41 (it's still early but August is looking light so far!)

It is beginning to look like the net effect of the price increase on K1 filers was to shift August filings into July. That seems logical to me. Petitioners for other types of visas might have behaved differently however.

Once again, thanks for contacting your senator.

[U.S. Wendy 0]

My mind is working double time....

What do others think of a "CALL IN DAY"? A SPECIFIC DAT OR TWO...where we ALL call in to senators offices, flood them with emails, with a plea for simple information???? May not work...but.....what if it DID? (ohhh theres that optimistic positive PMS combination working.... ) And instead of sending chocolates or flowers to VCS....send the to our politicians with letters....hmmm......

FINALLY...............someone is ready to take some real action. I can't believe it!!!! Really, I was losing hope here.

If you can get people to buy into something like that, I'd definitely support you.

I don't know if you will find many motivated beyond their own individual concerns. I often find when I talk of 'revolt' on here and other forums, the 'sheep' run for the hills for fear that some USCIS official is secretly cruising the site....looking to retaliate against anyone saying or doing anything to make the organization look bad.

A little anarchy is a healthy thing. Complacency is deadly, IMHO.

Good luck and PM me if you need any help or want to brainstorm.

[amrssnowangel 0]

Well....I think we need to all do something. Its not just about the individual petition. Its about standing up to say we are humans, with emotions..and to me this is a bit more weighted then what my individual petition status is. Plus once we get our foot in the door and VCS Director starts getting emails, phone calls from Senators offices alll over the usa....they know we are watching, waiting and ready to take the next step...they know we stood up for our simple right to knowledge. Also, I DO understand that the individual petition is processed in its own time. If everyone wants nothing but their individual petition to go through faster then we won't gain the attention of politicians. Its MUCH more reasonable to want information...lets face it...for all we they may have a legitimate reason for the lagging. It wasnt THAT long ago they were processing in less than a month...so SOMETHING happened to stop this fast work...and we, the petitioners, who paid for a service.....have a right to know why the change... Its our right. I think we can get more on board by making others understand as an individual petition we aren't noticed....as a large group of voters demanding their RIGHTS to information on the PROCESS we will get noticed. Just my opinion. Law of large numbers. We'd never get action if they thought we ALL wanted individual petitions rushed. They just need to know we are here and not afraid to demand our rights. Any ideas on how to start and collect the information we need? Im thinking...a listing of state senators, with phone numbers, fax numbers, email addresses. A form letter for everyone to send with a space to say how the lack of knowledge and information is affecting them on a personal level. I say we CC: the white house to. Another date, another campaign.

I got the number of applicatants on file by clicking on immigration timelines...Then K1. I selected last 6 months option and it tells number of files on VJ...or did I read it wrong??? Or is that number wrong? And if it is...how does THAT affect the numbers???

Ok...I guess we need a committee to make letters, help gather information and make a plan on how to recruit petitioners to send this and call. Also, its not just VSC...we can include ALL centers....this isn't just VSC issues....no one can get ANY information for many reasons. Plus the more....the merrier. Anyone interested in helping....message me and lets get rolling. I will look for volunteers to help organize this till next wednesday...then we can make a meeting in chat to discuss the details...look for more details to come..I will start a new thread for this tomorrow. Keep an eye out for it...

[nora &ryan 0]

why am I off the list ...

I changed the algorithm significantly. I now only show VSC filers here who have a NOA1 within 1 year but have updated their timeline within 3 months. I filtered out disabled users (orphaned timelines) and try to identify situations where the NOA2 should have been received but timeline not updated.

Here are the latest lists generated at 9/11/2007 6:38:37 PM

Latest VSC NOA2s

      Names                      Type   Sent        NOA1        NOA2
1     zee & inusah               K1     5/14/2007   5/17/2007   9/5/2007   
2     d & k                      K3     6/28/2007   7/6/2007    9/4/2007   
3     sarah & baier              K1     5/18/2007   5/23/2007   8/30/2007  
4     heather & rogelio          K3     10/1/2006   1/16/2007   8/29/2007  
5     maureen & tim              K1     4/23/2007   5/4/2007    8/29/2007  
6     geoff & katya              K1     5/9/2007    5/18/2007   8/29/2007  
7     shon & ana                 K1     5/8/2007    5/15/2007   8/28/2007  
8     joseph & lyly              K1     4/26/2007   5/1/2007    8/27/2007  
9     diana & francisco          K1     4/11/2007   4/21/2007   8/24/2007  
10    tarah & adam               K1     5/11/2007   5/21/2007   8/23/2007  
11    kevin & anna               K1     4/6/2007    4/11/2007   8/22/2007  
12    frank & anca               K3     3/14/2007   3/29/2007   8/21/2007  
13    ashley & jonathan          K1     5/11/2007   5/17/2007   8/18/2007  
14    shawn & gabriel            K1     5/11/2007   5/17/2007   8/18/2007  
15    michael & eve              K1     5/4/2007    5/9/2007    8/16/2007  
16    nicholas & rocio           K1     4/24/2007   5/2/2007    8/15/2007  
17    c & r                      K3                 3/19/2007   8/14/2007  
18    vanessa & miguel           K3     3/28/2007   4/7/2007    8/14/2007  
19    rocky & jassi              K1     5/1/2007    5/9/2007    8/14/2007  
20    mindy & lyndon             K3     3/13/2007   3/21/2007   8/13/2007

Pending K-1 NOA2s from VSC

      Names                      Type   Sent        NOA1
1     james & vikia              K1     3/27/2007   4/7/2007   
2     steve & natasha            K1     4/12/2007   4/17/2007  
3     edith & donald             K1     4/17/2007   4/20/2007  
4     robin & carl               K1     4/23/2007   4/24/2007  
5     chris & tu                 K1     4/28/2007   5/1/2007   
6     sheila & john              K1     4/25/2007   5/7/2007   
7     kemely & juan              K1     5/4/2007    5/8/2007   
8     patrick & mirla            K1     5/7/2007    5/9/2007   
9     kevin & charlene           K1     5/9/2007    5/10/2007  
10    dennis & charito           K1     5/15/2007   5/17/2007  
11    sophia & christian         K1     5/14/2007   5/18/2007  
12    cory & ann                 K1     5/12/2007   5/21/2007  
13    byron & leidy              K1     5/18/2007   5/21/2007  
14    kt & eh                    K1     5/15/2007   5/23/2007  
15    gail & d                   K1     5/14/2007   5/24/2007  
16    missy & manny              K1     5/21/2007   5/24/2007  
17    john & nives               K1     5/21/2007   5/25/2007  
18    michael & priscilla        K1     5/22/2007   5/25/2007  
19    david & elena              K1     5/11/2007   5/29/2007  
20    brian & emma               K1     5/23/2007   5/30/2007  
21    patrick & silviya          K1     5/19/2007   5/31/2007  
22    wil-wil & shai-shai        K1     5/23/2007   5/31/2007  
23    arlene & bill              K1     5/29/2007   5/31/2007  
24    daly & javi                K1     5/24/2007   6/1/2007   
25    farkhad & sabina           K1     5/30/2007   6/1/2007   
26    ken & jasmine              K1     5/30/2007   6/1/2007   
27    dave & caroline            K1     5/22/2007   6/2/2007   
28    don &  jane                K1     5/31/2007   6/4/2007   
29    sterling & selena          K1     6/1/2007    6/5/2007   
30    erika & dairo              K1     6/1/2007    6/6/2007   
31    jake & sharlene            K1     6/1/2007    6/6/2007   
32    peter & angelica           K1     6/2/2007    6/6/2007   
33    virgil & ana               K1     6/4/2007    6/6/2007   
34    daniel & paola             K1     6/4/2007    6/11/2007  
35    ida & tei                  K1     6/6/2007    6/11/2007  
36    quang & trang              K1     6/9/2007    6/11/2007  
37    michele & luis             K1     5/21/2007   6/12/2007  
38    mark & april               K1     6/5/2007    6/12/2007  
39    jim & sheila               K1     6/7/2007    6/12/2007  
40    mike & karen               K1     6/8/2007    6/12/2007  
41    chi & okey                 K1     6/8/2007    6/13/2007  
42    darius & kathryn           K1     6/8/2007    6/13/2007  
43    erica & peter              K1     6/5/2007    6/14/2007  
44    james & jennifer           K1     6/10/2007   6/14/2007  
45    ranjeet & reshma           K1     6/12/2007   6/14/2007  
46    steve & donna              K1     6/13/2007   6/15/2007  
47    travis & mary ann          K1     6/11/2007   6/16/2007  
48    b & r                      K1     6/7/2007    6/18/2007  
49    steve & sandy              K1     6/15/2007   6/18/2007  
50    faith & amr                K1     6/13/2007   6/19/2007  
51    stephanie & darren         K1     6/4/2007    6/20/2007  
52    pkscotus & scotus          K1     6/11/2007   6/20/2007  
53    asake & tunde              K1     6/12/2007   6/21/2007  
54    melinda & tarek            K1     6/13/2007   6/21/2007  
55    chris & natasha            K1     6/13/2007   6/22/2007  
56    pao thao & dao yang        K1     6/20/2007   6/25/2007  
57    the skinny viking & luva   K1     6/21/2007   6/25/2007  
58    eric & zenny               K1     6/18/2007   6/26/2007  
59    jacob & su                 K1     6/21/2007   6/26/2007  
60    shawn & miriam             K1     6/18/2007   6/27/2007  
61    syl & milaine              K1     6/22/2007   6/27/2007  
62    pg & pj                    K1     6/25/2007   6/27/2007  
63    b & d                      K1     6/21/2007   6/30/2007  
64    w & i                      K1     6/26/2007   7/3/2007   
65    sara & hormazd             K1     6/29/2007   7/6/2007   
66    jack & amy                 K1     6/27/2007   7/9/2007   
67    jayel & wala               K1     6/28/2007   7/9/2007   
68    alan & diana               K1     6/19/2007   7/10/2007  
69    sue & gaz                  K1     7/2/2007    7/10/2007  
70    scott & gillian            K1     7/3/2007    7/10/2007  
71    frank & rose               K1     7/5/2007    7/11/2007  
72    omizo & tusha              K1     7/5/2007    7/11/2007  
73    nes & lyn                  K1     7/6/2007    7/12/2007  
74    daniel & jovy              K1     7/9/2007    7/12/2007  
75    m & p                      K1     7/10/2007   7/13/2007  
76    brian & aysegul            K1     7/11/2007   7/18/2007  
77    rachel & scott             K1     7/12/2007   7/18/2007  
78    laura & dave               K1     7/13/2007   7/18/2007  
79    e & a                      K1     7/2/2007    7/20/2007  
80    joel & geiza               K1     7/6/2007    7/20/2007  
81    me & pa                    K1     7/10/2007   7/20/2007  
82    jason & alexandra          K1     7/14/2007   7/20/2007  
83    tiffany & truong           K1     7/17/2007   7/20/2007  
84    tigrisriver & mohammed     K1     7/17/2007   7/23/2007  
85    drew & amy                 K1     7/18/2007   7/23/2007  
86    tonza & marvin             K1     7/19/2007   7/24/2007  
87    paul & fenglian            K1     7/11/2007   7/26/2007  
88    melissa & rene             K1     7/16/2007   7/26/2007  
89    jason & belen              K1     7/17/2007   7/27/2007  
90    sidiq & lily               K1     7/25/2007   7/27/2007  
91    d & t                      K1     7/15/2007   7/28/2007  
92    k & m                      K1     7/21/2007   7/30/2007  
93    andre & orphee             K1     7/23/2007   7/30/2007  
94    eduardo & lissette         K1     7/19/2007   7/31/2007  
95    julie & griff              K1     7/21/2007   7/31/2007  
96    sandra & dariusz           K1     7/23/2007   7/31/2007  
97    matt & maryna              K1     7/17/2007   8/1/2007   
98    lisa & marty               K1     7/23/2007   8/1/2007   
99    herrera & mace             K1     7/24/2007   8/1/2007   
100   jeff & mayeth              K1     7/25/2007   8/1/2007   
101   a & s                      K1     7/24/2007   8/2/2007   
102   noni & bg                  K1     7/26/2007   8/6/2007   
103   bill & bella               K1     7/25/2007   8/7/2007   
104   mitch & rahela             K1     7/25/2007   8/7/2007   
105   clifford & ana paula       K1     7/23/2007   8/8/2007   
106   shannon & marco            K1     7/25/2007   8/8/2007   
107   christy & alf              K1     7/26/2007   8/8/2007   
108   courtney & richard         K1     7/27/2007   8/8/2007   
109   karen & andres             K1     7/27/2007   8/8/2007   
110   marc & charry              K1     7/27/2007   8/8/2007   
111   peter & marjana            K1     8/4/2007    8/9/2007   
112   erin & kosta               K1     7/30/2007   8/10/2007  
113   gill & ken                 K1     7/25/2007   8/11/2007  
114   nicole & michel            K1     7/28/2007   8/13/2007  
115   tk & pl                    K1     7/28/2007   8/13/2007  
116   guy & valeria              K1     7/20/2007   8/14/2007  
117   todd & bella               K1     7/20/2007   8/14/2007  
118   frank & jessica            K1     7/25/2007   8/14/2007  
119   jeremy & florenda          K1     7/23/2007   8/15/2007  
120   angela & james             K1     7/21/2007   8/16/2007  
121   maria & mehdi              K1     7/24/2007   8/16/2007  
122   sean & viviane             K1     7/27/2007   8/16/2007  
123   charlie & eloesa           K1     8/13/2007   8/16/2007  
124   jing & an                  K1     8/14/2007   8/16/2007  
125   terry & anna               K1     7/24/2007   8/17/2007  
126   brad & meera               K1     7/27/2007   8/17/2007  
127   devin & virginie           K1     8/9/2007    8/20/2007  
128   jonathan & jennifer        K1     8/9/2007    8/20/2007  
129   john & st‚phanie           K1     8/16/2007   8/20/2007  
130   michael & yajing           K1     7/27/2007   8/21/2007  
131   tina & kariem              K1     7/25/2007   8/22/2007  
132   walt & camila              K1     7/25/2007   8/22/2007  
133   maggie & sehrab            K1     7/24/2007   8/23/2007  
134   mike & sheila              K1     8/1/2007    8/23/2007  
135   damon & sandra             K1     8/9/2007    8/23/2007  
136   cody & ilze                K1     8/10/2007   8/23/2007  
137   anthony & meziel           K1     8/21/2007   8/23/2007  
138   steven & vanessa           K1     8/14/2007   8/25/2007  
139   tony & isis                K1     8/16/2007   8/25/2007  
140   sadruddin & hana           K1     8/15/2007   8/27/2007  
141   scott & valentina          K1     8/23/2007   8/28/2007  
142   el & semih                 K1     8/14/2007   8/29/2007  
143   lillie & duane             K1     8/21/2007   8/29/2007  
144   suzie & munesh             K1     8/20/2007   8/31/2007  
145   charles & laura            K1     8/30/2007   9/4/2007   
146   de & jan                   K1     8/30/2007   9/4/2007   
147   abdurrahman & azmina       K1     9/1/2007    9/10/2007  
148   cary & olga                K1     9/4/2007    9/11/2007

Pending K-3 NOA2s from VSC

      Names                      Type   Sent        NOA1
1     jasmeet & sheetal          K3     4/20/2007   4/25/2007  
2     neen & arti                K3     4/23/2007   4/26/2007  
3     jo & rich                  K3     4/13/2007   5/17/2007  
4     mark & lillian             K3     6/15/2007   6/21/2007  
5     kathryn & lanre            K3     6/22/2007   7/2/2007   
6     jerry & chica              K3     6/30/2007   7/6/2007   
7     dave & jaclyn              K3     6/27/2007   7/7/2007   
8     gayle & omar               K3     7/5/2007    7/12/2007  
9     nick & monica              K3     6/28/2007   7/13/2007  
10    habub & habuba             K3     6/27/2007   7/17/2007  
11    mohammed & mariam          K3     7/6/2007    7/27/2007  
12    larhonda & pister          K3     8/6/2007    8/20/2007  
13    fd & fd                    K3     6/14/2007   8/25/2007

[Bill y Bella 0]

I got the number of applicatants on file by clicking on immigration timelines...Then K1. I selected last 6 months option and it tells number of files on VJ...or did I read it wrong??? Or is that number wrong? And if it is...how does THAT affect the numbers???

Using your method (mine covered a slightly different period since I looked at full months only and excluded September) I see a 6 month K1 total of 797 and a 3 month total of 431.

[Bill y Bella 0]

why am I off the list ...

You got bumped because you have a marriage date in your timeline. (9/20?) He revised his algorithm and you are back on the most recent list.

[amrssnowangel 0]

I-129f Service Center Statistics (for the last 180 days)

Service Center Total

California Service Center 447 108 11 98

Nebraska Service Center 94 105 12 93

Texas Service Center 81 108 13 95

Vermont Service Center 161 74 8 65

Service Center Total

National Benefits Center 151 113 12 101

Ok...where are you looking???? This is what I get on the "chart" below the graphs. What am I doing wrong??

ohhhh I see...NOOOOO...THATS the total for ALL service centers....scroll down under the graphs...it breaks up the centers.....

[Bill y Bella 0]

I-129f Service Center Statistics (for the last 180 days)

Service Center Total

California Service Center 447 108 11 98

Nebraska Service Center 94 105 12 93

Texas Service Center 81 108 13 95

Vermont Service Center 161 74 8 65

Service Center Total

National Benefits Center 151 113 12 101

Ok...where are you looking???? This is what I get on the "chart" below the graphs. What am I doing wrong??

ohhhh I see...NOOOOO...THATS the total for ALL service centers....scroll down under the graphs...it breaks up the centers.....

Oh OK. I see where you are getting the numbers. I had asked before if you were just looking at VSC. That makes a big difference.

An interesting point. Since the first of August K1's sent to VSC & CSC are almost identical. CSC used to get about 2 1/2 times as many as VSC.

At this point I forget why we are looking at these numbers. What is the point you were trying to demonstrate with the numbers on your first post?

[amrssnowangel 0]

LOL...NO CLUE!!!! Ummmm oh yeah...to keep in perspective the approvals or lack of. In 6 months under 170 k1 petitions were filed. An average of 29 a month. Yes we slowed down....and we deserve to know why...but...ohhhhhhhhhhh.....

VSC just needs to get moving...LOL

[thejoz 0]

Since USCIS is now under the umbrella of DHS, why don't we all just flood letters to Chertoff's office and try and get some damn answers?

A couple hundred (okay that's probably a stretch but still) letters going "hey what's the deal give us information" can't be readily ignored. Right? Right.

[Bill y Bella 0]

LOL...NO CLUE!!!! Ummmm oh yeah...to keep in perspective the approvals or lack of. In 6 months under 170 k1 petitions were filed. An average of 29 a month. Yes we slowed down....and we deserve to know why...but...ohhhhhhhhhhh.....

VSC just needs to get moving...LOL

Ah. Gotcha. You mean the fact that we went from an average of 29 a month

to 14 for the last 30 days

to 4 for the last 15 days

to 0 for the last 7 days.

Yep. Looks like a slowdown to me!

[Jamie76 0]

Since USCIS is now under the umbrella of DHS, why don't we all just flood letters to Chertoff's office and try and get some damn answers?

A couple hundred (okay that's probably a stretch but still) letters going "hey what's the deal give us information" can't be readily ignored. Right? Right.

You would do more by saving your time and energy and just focus on your SO then worry about the USCIS and DHS. They don't care how many letters they get...even if they did, they would have to do investigations in to why there is a slow down etc etc which would take longer than the time it will take to be with your SO. Sad truth. I'd love if it was possible to write some of these people and get results, but it doesn't happen these days.

[thejoz 0]

Since USCIS is now under the umbrella of DHS, why don't we all just flood letters to Chertoff's office and try and get some damn answers?

A couple hundred (okay that's probably a stretch but still) letters going "hey what's the deal give us information" can't be readily ignored. Right? Right.

You would do more by saving your time and energy and just focus on your SO then worry about the USCIS and DHS. They don't care how many letters they get...even if they did, they would have to do investigations in to why there is a slow down etc etc which would take longer than the time it will take to be with your SO. Sad truth. I'd love if it was possible to write some of these people and get results, but it doesn't happen these days.

I don't know about you, but I find it hard to focus on my fiance when she's in another country, and I cannot afford to go see her.

Besides, anytime I start thinking about her, all I do is think about how she's not here with me, and why the government won't go any faster, etc. So yeah, I don't see that helping at all.

[Jamie76 0]

Since USCIS is now under the umbrella of DHS, why don't we all just flood letters to Chertoff's office and try and get some damn answers?

A couple hundred (okay that's probably a stretch but still) letters going "hey what's the deal give us information" can't be readily ignored. Right? Right.

You would do more by saving your time and energy and just focus on your SO then worry about the USCIS and DHS. They don't care how many letters they get...even if they did, they would have to do investigations in to why there is a slow down etc etc which would take longer than the time it will take to be with your SO. Sad truth. I'd love if it was possible to write some of these people and get results, but it doesn't happen these days.

I don't know about you, but I find it hard to focus on my fiance when she's in another country, and I cannot afford to go see her.

Besides, anytime I start thinking about her, all I do is think about how she's not here with me, and why the government won't go any faster, etc. So yeah, I don't see that helping at all.

We all miss our love one(s), but if you think writing to them is going to make a difference, then by all means...

[MissLove 0]

Since USCIS is now under the umbrella of DHS, why don't we all just flood letters to Chertoff's office and try and get some damn answers?

A couple hundred (okay that's probably a stretch but still) letters going "hey what's the deal give us information" can't be readily ignored. Right? Right.

You would do more by saving your time and energy and just focus on your SO then worry about the USCIS and DHS. They don't care how many letters they get...even if they did, they would have to do investigations in to why there is a slow down etc etc which would take longer than the time it will take to be with your SO. Sad truth. I'd love if it was possible to write some of these people and get results, but it doesn't happen these days.

I don't know about you, but I find it hard to focus on my fiance when she's in another country, and I cannot afford to go see her.

Besides, anytime I start thinking about her, all I do is think about how she's not here with me, and why the government won't go any faster, etc. So yeah, I don't see that helping at all.

We all miss our love one(s), but if you think writing to them is going to make a difference, then by all means...

I can offer myself, 3 sisters, mom and all their partners.... that's 9 individuals in 4 states. And I'm sure I a few friends around the country who would be happy to send the letters - especially if I send them the links to quickly email the offices. All Senators and Congressmen are easy access via websites and emails now. I do agree they are better to write than DHS - especially with the election a mere 14 months away (but doesn't feel like the campaigning has been going on forever? Oh yeah, it has been...)