Traffic Citations

[Becci391 340]

Hello lovely people,

 

I technically can apply for the US citizenship in October but I will wait until I have my certificate from the German government saying that I can keep my German citizenship and acquire a second one.

 

Do I have to mention that I ran a red light and passed a stopping school bus? I got pulled  over by a police officer shortly after I ran the red light and handed me a document saying that I will be getting something in the mail. My car got caught on the school bus camera and I had to pay a fine.

[Undecided 78]

You should mention these incidents and attach documentation that you have paid any fine or whatever.

[Born2run4you 18]

Technically you should mention them (although I have seen people who have not and passed through--I believe some states/IOs are taking it easy on this). Per instruction if the tickets are lower than $500 documentations are not needed to be attached. You can keep track of them in case you have been asked in the interview.  

[walter99 40]

Less than 500-no need to report the incidents. Keep the tickets/payment receipts. 

[Zaidba 39]

18 hours ago, Becci391 said:

Hello lovely people,

 

I technically can apply for the US citizenship in October but I will wait until I have my certificate from the German government saying that I can keep my German citizenship and acquire a second one.

 

Do I have to mention that I ran a red light and passed a stopping school bus? I got pulled  over by a police officer shortly after I ran the red light and handed me a document saying that I will be getting something in the mail. My car got caught on the school bus camera and I had to pay a fine.

You have to mention every citation in your name. You also have to attach documentation if fine is $500 or greater. I suggest that you take documentation for citations less than $500 with you to the interview to present them only in case the officer asks you to do so.

[ioxtremod 23]

Hum, I would advise against answering yes to the arrest question and not uploading any documents.

 

My understanding of the instructions it's pretty clear that you don't need to "document it" - "document it" can be interpreted as replying yes to the question - if the fine is less than $500 and it's not a DUI or bodily injured someone. Maybe school buses are an exception though as fines are super heavy and sometimes it is misdemeanor.

 

If you are replying yes, I will document it and some proof you're good with the court. As it's putting a red flag on your application.

 

Please also note that is apply also to any foreign citations and some countries issue fines for speeding automatically and in great numbers. I highly doubt it's possible for the most of us to find and provide documentation for a speeding ticket 10 years ago in your home country.

 

 

[Born2run4you 18]

2 hours ago, ioxtremod said:

Hum, I would advise against answering yes to the arrest question and not uploading any documents.

 

My understanding of the instructions it's pretty clear that you don't need to "document it" - "document it" can be interpreted as replying yes to the question - if the fine is less than $500 and it's not a DUI or bodily injured someone. Maybe school buses are an exception though as fines are super heavy and sometimes it is misdemeanor.

I agree that it can be interpreted differently, even lawyers think the same (based on my research most lawyers are saying you should mention, but there are a few saying it is not needed, and it also depends on how certain states and IOs handle the case). In this situation, there is a room to defend yourself why you have not mentioned them. 

 

However, I have seen a few crazy cases how the case depends on the interpretation of the IO, I decided to mention it just not to leave any space for misinterpretation. One example was the gentleman who submitted his application 1:30 am in the day he became eligible, and his case was initially rejected!! Because USCIS website clock set on Hawaii time. Based on that, it was 30 min too early to apply. After a month of work, lobbying with congressmen, interview newspapers etc he was able to turn the decision in his favor, but who wants to be in his shoes. There is a long and exciting thread somewhere online which you may enjoy reading it.   

What if the IO uses this (perhaps combines another typo/error) to reject your case. After all, traffic tickets are not a deal-breaker for N400. Mentioning them might be perceived as a good moral character too (in terms of showing honesty)     

Edited July 23, 2020 by Born2run4you

[ioxtremod 23]

15 minutes ago, Born2run4you said:

I agree that it can be interpreted differently, even lawyers think the same (based on my research most lawyers are saying you should mention, but there are a few saying it is not needed, and it also depends on how certain states and IOs handle the case). In this situation, there is a room to defend yourself why you have not mentioned them. 

 

However, I have seen a few crazy cases how the case depends on the interpretation of the IO, I decided to mention it just not to leave any space for misinterpretation. One example was the gentleman who submitted his application 1:30 am in the day he became eligible, and his case was initially rejected!! Because USCIS website clock set on Hawaii time. Based on that, it was 30 min too early to apply. After a month of work, lobbying with congressmen, interview newspapers etc he was able to turn the decision in his favor, but who wants to be in his shoes. There is a long and exciting thread somewhere online which you may enjoy reading it.   

What if the IO uses this (perhaps combines another typo/error) to reject your case. After all, traffic tickets are not a deal-breaker for N400. Mentioning them might be perceived as a good moral character too (in terms of showing honesty)     

I feel if the officer doesn't like you he can find a reason to deny you. Forgot to file an AR-10 in the 10 days of moving from an hotel to another hotel 7 years ago when you first visited the US? It is technically enough for him to push for a denial.

 

My strategy will be to stick with the instructions about the less than $500 fines should not be documented at all and bring documentation anyway to the interview that your speeding tickets have been paid off. Finally the question is next to actual serious offenses like being a terrorism group, frauding taxes, committing genocides and something in the like.

 

If you expand the definition of the fine outside if what the USCIS instructions define it, you've more questions you need to answer yes as well. Like the firearms training one seems to be linked only for military or military-like training but technically if one of your friends take you shooting and show you as some point how to shoot his gun does that qualify as firearms training? Who define what military like is? Then if you answer yes what kind of explanation do you add to your N-400 application?  

 

 

[Born2run4you 18]

29 minutes ago, ioxtremod said:

I feel if the officer doesn't like you he can find a reason to deny you. Forgot to file an AR-10 in the 10 days of moving from an hotel to another hotel 7 years ago when you first visited the US? It is technically enough for him to push for a denial.

 

My strategy will be to stick with the instructions about the less than $500 fines should not be documented at all and bring documentation anyway to the interview that your speeding tickets have been paid off. Finally the question is next to actual serious offenses like being a terrorism group, frauding taxes, committing genocides and something in the like.

 

If you expand the definition of the fine outside if what the USCIS instructions define it, you've more questions you need to answer yes as well. Like the firearms training one seems to be linked only for military or military-like training but technically if one of your friends take you shooting and show you as some point how to shoot his gun does that qualify as firearms training? Who define what military like is? Then if you answer yes what kind of explanation do you add to your N-400 application?  

 

 

The question itself is quite clear, and it doesn't leave any space for interpretation.

Have you EVER been arrested, cited, or detained by any law enforcement officer (including any immigration official or any official of the U.S. armed forces) for any reason?

Traffic tickets ARE citation. 

 

The aim with these broad questions (including firearms, etc) is that the applicant gives every information and they decide whether they are important/relevant or not. They are designed to be as inclusive as possible. 

I may even agree with you, but that is not the point and doesn't help anyone. It is up to IP interpretation! To me It is about the risk and reward of either action. In this case, I think the risk of mentioning a traffic ticket is zero, and there might even be a reward of showing honesty and ability to understand the pure English (without interpreting in your own benefit). The risk of not mentioning could be huge as you are under the oath (very low probability though). You do the math for yourself. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Born2run4you

[ioxtremod 23]

The thing is the official instructions clearly clarify to not document fines less than $500. So it's very very far from being clear. (or we won't have this discussion! )

 

Anyway I also think either way is fine. Saying YES or NO and have proper documentation either way for the minor fines should not block any N-400. I just think recommending answering yes to this question without submitting any explanation or documentation is not a sound advice. It will raise a flag to your application and they will address it at your interview. If you browse the Internet, you have several testimonials where officers advise against saying YES to this question in case of minor fines. Even one where the officer reprinted the page with NO answered when the applicant mentioned it was just minor tickets.

 

My reasoning is the following, the two reasonable choices are either:

- Answering YES and submitting an explanation + documentation (probably the most transparent)

- Answering NO and bring proper documentation at the interview

 

As I think answering YES is not following the following the official instructions - as you are gonna to submit paperworks for the minor fines - and it seems to create extra work on the officer side - which I think they would more appreciate spending on more serious cases - answering NO seems more reasonable. YMMV of course.

 

[Born2run4you 18]

2 hours ago, ioxtremod said:

The thing is the official instructions clearly clarify to not document fines less than $500. So it's very very far from being clear. (or we won't have this discussion!  

 

Wrong--it seems you have misunderstood. 

 

It does NOT read as you should not document them, it says you do not need to submit documentation for minor tickets as you need to do for major one. Here is the text FYI. 

 

"NOTE: You must submit documentation of traffic incidents if:
(1) The incident involved alcohol or drugs;

Form N-400 Instructions 09/17/19 Page 13 of 18

(2) The incident led to an arrest; or
(3) The incident seriously injured another person.

You do not need to submit documentation for traffic fines or incidents that did not involve an arrest or did not involve drugs or alcohol, if the only penalty was a fine of less than $500 or points on your driving record."

 

 

[ioxtremod 23]

14 minutes ago, Born2run4you said:

submit documentation

So yeah, the thing is you can interpret this as replying YES or NO to the citation question.

 

Even if your interpretation of submit, it's only strictly about uploading documents that's not the N-400 form, you can still make the case of replying NO. As on the N-400 online form when you click on YES, I think it will ask you then to upload the citation documents which is then against what the instructions of the form says.

 

It's like if for the organization question it will be something don't submit documentations for organizations that you didn't spend more than 10 hours into. (Not the case but let's say.) Then to the organization question you'll answer yes but because you've volunteered only 5h in only one organization you won't list anything. You probably will have then the same position of just answering NO. Or if you say YES then list the 5h organization.

 

We can agree to disagree. Not sure why you are against submit documentation if you do reply YES though.

[Born2run4you 18]

16 minutes ago, ioxtremod said:

So yeah, the thing is you can interpret this as replying YES or NO to the citation question.

 

Even if your interpretation of submit, it's only strictly about uploading documents that's not the N-400 form, you can still make the case of replying NO. As on the N-400 online form when you click on YES, I think it will ask you then to upload the citation documents which is then against what the instructions of the form says.

 

It's like if for the organization question it will be something don't submit documentations for organizations that you didn't spend more than 10 hours into. (Not the case but let's say.) Then to the organization question you'll answer yes but because you've volunteered only 5h in only one organization you won't list anything. You probably will have then the same position of just answering NO. Or if you say YES then list the 5h organization.

 

We can agree to disagree. Not sure why you are against submit documentation if you do reply YES though.

The text and instruction are clear (not up to interpretation): 

 

1) You need to disclose ANY citation per original question 2) Submit additional docs for major ones except for the ones instruction suggest not to [but take all the docs to the interview]. 

 

"NOTE: You must provide the documentation even if someone including a judge, law enforcement officer, or

attorney told you that you no longer have a record or told you that you do not have to disclose the information. "  

 

It's up to you how you do of course, but I personally don't risk getting anywhere close to a perjury (lying under oath which is serious crime), and don't suggest it. Sorry that I can't explain myself more.    

[ioxtremod 23]

10 minutes ago, Born2run4you said:

The text and instruction are clear (not up to interpretation): 

 

1) You need to disclose ANY citation per original question 2) Submit additional docs for major ones except for the ones instruction suggest not to [but take all the docs to the interview]. 

 

"NOTE: You must provide the documentation even if someone including a judge, law enforcement officer, or

attorney told you that you no longer have a record or told you that you do not have to disclose the information. "  

 

It's up to you how you do of course, but I personally don't risk getting anywhere close to a perjury (lying under oath which is serious crime), and don't suggest it. Sorry that I can't explain myself more.    

I feel if we take time to debate N-400 instructions on the internet we have been scrupulous about it.  Specially for somethings that I am sure it's actually trivial. Of course we want to avoid perjury and if it's something you don't want to take any risk then advising to answer YES and submit documentation even if it's not needed will be more careful. 

 

I am sure if you have answered YES but not submitted any documentation or explanation, you'll be fine and we'll have the chance to show things at your interview. Or worst case scenario would get a RFE about the YES and would have the chance to address it. Normally also you can still upload documents but not modify the application online.

 

> ANY citation per original question

 

It really doesn't say "ANY" on that on the question. The actual question: "Have you EVER been arrested, cited, or detained by any law enforcement officer (including any immigration official or any official of the U.S. armed forces) for any reason?"

 

Finally look to that answer from an attorney on avvo (ref: https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/-have-you-ever-been-arrested--cited--detained-by-l-1415656.html):

 

"I have personally spoken to a uscis supervisor who told me that any traffic citations resulting in fines less than $500 are not considered citations for purposes of this question. I always tell my clients that if they are going to feel better disclosing their failure to wear seat belt ticket- that's perfectly fine. It causes confusion and delays sometimes but you should disclose your traffic tickets if that will make you feel better. Just attach an addendum and explain. Also, you should have the dispositions because once you check "yes" as an answer they want to see what the citation was."

Which exactly the line I am advising.

[Born2run4you 18]

17 hours ago, ioxtremod said:

> ANY citation per original question

 

It really doesn't say "ANY" on that on the question. The actual question: "Have you EVER been arrested, cited, or detained by any law enforcement officer (including any immigration official or any official of the U.S. armed forces) for any reason?"

You can ask someone else if the meaning of sentence is not clear and what "EVER" means. 

 

17 hours ago, ioxtremod said:

Finally look to that answer from an attorney on avvo (ref: https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/-have-you-ever-been-arrested--cited--detained-by-l-1415656.html):

Which exactly the line I am advising.

Mate, note this post is from 2013. I don't know how the history of this rule has been. But USCIS changes rules on monthly basis. Just because a lawyer in 2013 it doesn't mean it is still valid. 

I did my research on this myself when I filed. The majority of lawyers and forum discussion posts are saying you should disclose all your citations. Google and Youtube are your friends (and be cautious of the dates), it is widely discussed even in this forum.  

 

As I mentioned at the first place, I know people who have got away with it, and or even have heard a lawyer mentioning it more depends on how a Field office handles it, e.g., in CA where I live they are pretty easy. But there are far more lawyers that suggest disclosing all of them (and not only those $500), including one whom I asked myself. When I read the application and the guide, I reached the same conclusion. For me it is all about maximizing the chances of trouble-free application based on what they have asked--regardless of what I "feel" or "think". 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Born2run4you