Wife not cooperating in filing FBAR

[OCman 12]

9 minutes ago, Paul & Mary said:

Correct

And then she is going to give you what is needed?   Seems like a waste of effort.

Wives

 

 

Is she required to file for her first year in the US as a resident or dual-status alien?  

She doesn't have any US based income last year.  

 

If she doesn't have to file, then I can just file for myself as MFS or Head of household.  

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by OCman

[Just Paul 4,595]

3 minutes ago, OCman said:

If she doesn't have to file, then I can just file for myself as MFS or Head of household.  

You can file those ways regardless of if she files or has to file.  

4 minutes ago, OCman said:

Is she required to file for her first year in the US as a resident or dual-status alien?  

She doesn't have any US based income last year.  

Generally no if you didn't acquire a house together or hold other cash or similar accounts jointly.

 

There is a provision for community property states like California that you might want to check into tho.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p555

 

[OCman 12]

22 minutes ago, Paul & Mary said:

You can file those ways regardless of if she files or has to file.  

Generally no if you didn't acquire a house together or hold other cash or similar accounts jointly.

 

There is a provision for community property states like California that you might want to check into tho.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p555

 

No house together, but we do have bank accounts together.  

Do I have to file as MFJ?  

 

 

[Wuozopo 4,293]

2 hours ago, OCman said:

If I switch from MFJ to MFS, my wife have to file a MFS return by July 15 right?   

I probably would have to do her return.  

 

What other options do I have?  

It's becoming a big headache for me.  

 

 

You need to have a serious conversation with her. You think she is hiding something. She may actually not know how much money she has in foreign accounts. Does she know the Financial penalty for not reporting?  Do they have online banking? All she needs for FINCIN is name, address of bank, account number and the highest balance during 2019 if it is only bank accounts. 
 

Does she own property or just have a bank account. Does she have more than $100K.  Tell her you have to know because she doesn’t want to be in trouble with the US government. Maybe 8938 isn’t even an issue so nothing changes on your tax return. 
 

Did she have a job in China during 2019? Did you report that income on your joint return? 

Did she have a US job during 2019?
How did you do taxes? Yourself or hire somebody?
Did you get a stimulus payment this year from the US government? How much?

 
And for what it’s worth to ease your panic, I didn’t do the FinCen (FBAR) the  first year because we didn’t even know about it.  I did the next year and all since then. Nothing has happened to me. And when FATCA (8938) came out we skipped it for two years because the information was so vague and nobody at the IRS could answer specific questions. The tax law department admitted they didn’t know what qualified.

[JoJoJoJo 170]

3 hours ago, Wuozopo said:

You need to have a serious conversation with her. You think she is hiding something. She may actually not know how much money she has in foreign accounts. Does she know the Financial penalty for not reporting?  Do they have online banking? All she needs for FINCIN is name, address of bank, account number and the highest balance during 2019 if it is only bank accounts. 

Yeah, a serious conversation would be good. If she gets penalties like a $10k fine per year per form, wouldn't you have to pay for that as well at the end of day? If she does not report interest or any other (passive) income in China or elsewhere in her MFS returns in the future, and got caught by IRS, your family as a whole would be in trouble, not just her.

 

A phone call to her banks or brokerages would be the easiest. Some money market funds, as well as many banks and brokerages should be accessible from a phone app or online.  If she sold her house in China in 2019 for example, then there should be paperwork.

 

Good luck!

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by JoJoJoJo

[SusieQQQ 11,586]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:27 PM, OCman said:

She told me that I need to report her overseas assets so that she won't have problems bringing them here later.  

Just to clarify on this. She needs to file FBAR regardless if she wants to bring anything over or not, if she has relevant assets (cash, securities, signing powers etc) that are worth over $10k at any stage during the year. 

She needs to file for her assets. My husband and I are MFJ, but the assets overseas are only in my name, and only I file FBAR.  As I recall (we get a tax preparer so I somewhat embarrassedly admit i don’t know all the details) those asset balances are listed somewhere in our tax return, though. So yes I think it does have implications at some level if you are MFJ.

 

23 hours ago, OCman said:

She said it's almost impossible to figure out how much interests she is getting from her banks.  

 

I am sure Chinese banks are sophisticated  enough to have statements etc online. My concern at this point would be the legality of her investments/income as reasons for her being unsure of what is earned where. And as a green card holder she needs to be reporting this interest etc earned overseas on her tax return too. Are you effectively saying she’s left income off the tax return that should have been reported?

 

Perhaps you need to emphasis to your wife that problems with the taxman can put her green card at risk. It can certainly prevent her becoming a citizen in due course.

 

The secrecy is a separate issue but obviously one that needs to be dealt with too. Good luck. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by SusieQQQ

[SusieQQQ 11,586]

19 hours ago, OCman said:

Is she required to file for her first year in the US as a resident or dual-status alien?  

She can do either. Most do dual status but in some cases it’s beneficial to file as resident for the full year.

[OCman 12]

22 hours ago, Wuozopo said:

You need to have a serious conversation with her. You think she is hiding something. She may actually not know how much money she has in foreign accounts. Does she know the Financial penalty for not reporting?  Do they have online banking? All she needs for FINCIN is name, address of bank, account number and the highest balance during 2019 if it is only bank accounts. 
 

Does she own property or just have a bank account. Does she have more than $100K.  Tell her you have to know because she doesn’t want to be in trouble with the US government. Maybe 8938 isn’t even an issue so nothing changes on your tax return. 
 

Did she have a job in China during 2019? Did you report that income on your joint return? 

Did she have a US job during 2019?
How did you do taxes? Yourself or hire somebody?
Did you get a stimulus payment this year from the US government? How much?

 
And for what it’s worth to ease your panic, I didn’t do the FinCen (FBAR) the  first year because we didn’t even know about it.  I did the next year and all since then. Nothing has happened to me. And when FATCA (8938) came out we skipped it for two years because the information was so vague and nobody at the IRS could answer specific questions. The tax law department admitted they didn’t know what qualified.

Yes, she knows about the penalty that's why she told me about FinCIN in the first place.  

The problem according to her is that she is unable to access many of her banks from here in the US.

She was planning to go back to China last month to get everything, but coronavirus changed everything.

There is hardly any flights going to China now, and she doesn't want to risk catching coronavirus from flying.  

 

A further problem is that not all of the money in her accounts are hers.  

Many of her family members share accounts with her, and their funds are commingled.  

She says she is also not 100% sure how much is hers.  

 

She was self-employed last year.  No US based income.  

Yes, I do my taxes.  We already got our share of stimulus check.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by OCman

[OCman 12]

18 hours ago, JoJoJoJo said:

Yeah, a serious conversation would be good. If she gets penalties like a $10k fine per year per form, wouldn't you have to pay for that as well at the end of day? If she does not report interest or any other (passive) income in China or elsewhere in her MFS returns in the future, and got caught by IRS, your family as a whole would be in trouble, not just her.

 

A phone call to her banks or brokerages would be the easiest. Some money market funds, as well as many banks and brokerages should be accessible from a phone app or online.  If she sold her house in China in 2019 for example, then there should be paperwork.

 

Good luck!

 

Yes, a penalty would definitely hit me if my status remains as MFJ.  

If the penalty hits her, I would ask her to pay for it, since she has the funds in China.  

 

She said her banks don't provide banking info without personal appearance.  

And her banks don't mail her statements, so she has no records either.  

I was pretty mad about this, because it all sounds quite unbelieveable to me.  

 

 

[Wuozopo 4,293]

5 minutes ago, OCman said:

Yes, she knows about the penalty that's why she told me about FinCIN in the first place.  

The problem according to her is that she is unable to access many of her banks from here in the US.

She was planning to go back to China last month to get everything, but coronavirus changed everything.

There is hardly any flights going to China now, and she doesn't want to risk catching coronavirus from flying.  

 

A further problem is that not all of the money in her accounts are hers.  

Many of her family members share accounts with her, and their funds are commingled.  

She says she is also not 100% sure how much is hers.  

 

How about she email the family and ask them to provide info for any accounts they share with her and her name is actually on the account as a joint owner. Highest balance account ever reached during the year. 
 

Then you have some working numbers to report. There is no tax on the balance. The government just wants to know who’s stashing money abroad. And they are really trying to fish out Americans who are hiding millions in secret offshore accounts.  They probably won’t be that interested in your wife, but you can feel better that she filed something, even if not entirely accurate. They don’t likely have a way or enough personnel to actually track it down in China. 
 

17 minutes ago, OCman said:

She was self-employed last year.  No US based income.  

Yes, I do my taxes.  We already got our share of stimulus check.  

If you filed a joint return with your wife, her income earned anywhere in the world during tax year 2019 has to be reported.  It is self reported, meaning no documentation from China has to be sent in.  Not sure from your comment if you knew that or thought only US earned income had to be reported.  

[SusieQQQ 11,586]

16 minutes ago, Wuozopo said:

 

If you filed a joint return with your wife, her income earned anywhere in the world during tax year 2019 has to be reported.  It is self reported, meaning no documentation from China has to be sent in.  Not sure from your comment if you knew that or thought only US earned income had to be reported.  

And if she files MFS dual status, then everything she earned after she got her green card has to be reported regardless where it was earned. It’s not clear to me if she got her green card and just stayed in the US, or went back at any stage.

 

29 minutes ago, OCman said:

She said her banks don't provide banking info without personal appearance.  

And her banks don't mail her statements, so she has no records either.  

I was pretty mad about this, because it all sounds quite unbelieveable to m

This bit sounds quite unbelievable to me too but there must be enough Chinese green card holders in the US who can confirm whether or not it’s true.

 

 

[OCman 12]

5 hours ago, SusieQQQ said:

Just to clarify on this. She needs to file FBAR regardless if she wants to bring anything over or not, if she has relevant assets (cash, securities, signing powers etc) that are worth over $10k at any stage during the year. 

She needs to file for her assets. My husband and I are MFJ, but the assets overseas are only in my name, and only I file FBAR.  As I recall (we get a tax preparer so I somewhat embarrassedly admit i don’t know all the details) those asset balances are listed somewhere in our tax return, though. So yes I think it does have implications at some level if you are MFJ.

 

 

I am sure Chinese banks are sophisticated  enough to have statements etc online. My concern at this point would be the legality of her investments/income as reasons for her being unsure of what is earned where. And as a green card holder she needs to be reporting this interest etc earned overseas on her tax return too. Are you effectively saying she’s left income off the tax return that should have been reported?

 

Perhaps you need to emphasis to your wife that problems with the taxman can put her green card at risk. It can certainly prevent her becoming a citizen in due course.

 

The secrecy is a separate issue but obviously one that needs to be dealt with too. Good luck. 

 

 

Yes, we both know that we have to file.  But I can't get anything info about her banks and China-based income.  

This is why I want to re-file and amend my tax to MFS, and let her to face the music from FinCen or IRS, because I don't want to keep yelling at her for not having the info.

 

If I re-file as MFS, then she becomes a dual-status alien, in which case, the filing requirement starts when she arrives in the country, not the entire 2019.  

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by OCman

[OCman 12]

1 hour ago, SusieQQQ said:

And if she files MFS dual status, then everything she earned after she got her green card has to be reported regardless where it was earned. It’s not clear to me if she got her green card and just stayed in the US, or went back at any stage.

 

This bit sounds quite unbelievable to me too but there must be enough Chinese green card holders in the US who can confirm whether or not it’s true.

 

 

She stayed in the US with me since she got her green card last year.  

 

I don't believe it's true that's why I feel she is not cooperating with me.  

We had many heated arguments over this.  

 

[OCman 12]

1 hour ago, Wuozopo said:

How about she email the family and ask them to provide info for any accounts they share with her and her name is actually on the account as a joint owner. Highest balance account ever reached during the year. 
 

Then you have some working numbers to report. There is no tax on the balance. The government just wants to know who’s stashing money abroad. And they are really trying to fish out Americans who are hiding millions in secret offshore accounts.  They probably won’t be that interested in your wife, but you can feel better that she filed something, even if not entirely accurate. They don’t likely have a way or enough personnel to actually track it down in China. 
 

If you filed a joint return with your wife, her income earned anywhere in the world during tax year 2019 has to be reported.  It is self reported, meaning no documentation from China has to be sent in.  Not sure from your comment if you knew that or thought only US earned income had to be reported.  

 

She says her relatives are trying to get the bank info also. 

But this has been going on since February, so I am losing faith.  

 

[JoJoJoJo 170]

6 hours ago, OCman said:

Yes, a penalty would definitely hit me if my status remains as MFJ.  

If the penalty hits her, I would ask her to pay for it, since she has the funds in China.  

 

She said her banks don't provide banking info without personal appearance.  

And her banks don't mail her statements, so she has no records either.  

I was pretty mad about this, because it all sounds quite unbelieveable to me.  

 

 

Here is some information for MFS in community states in case you need it: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p555.pdf