I need help ASAP

[aaron2020 11,651]

31 minutes ago, Nitas_man said:

I am not commenting on a US case, I am viewing this from the perspective that the mother (and likely child) are citizens of another country.  
 

Jurisdiction is set at time of filing but there is certainly no case for kidnapping if a British citizen takes her British citizen baby home to escape an abuser in the US, especially if she asks nothing and leaves it up to the winner who abused her to find a lawyer who specializes in international custody to sort it out.  
 

Nobody’s doing anything about kidnapping until hearings are set, jurisdiction is established, and a ruling / order is issued (then) the kidnapper violates the order. 

You're wrong.  

The child resides in the US with the mother and father.  Both parents have custodial rights.  The mother, regardless of citizenship, can not take the child and move him to another country without the father's permission or a court order allowing her to do so.  

 

If you do a Google search, you will see that in most cases of international parental kidnapping involving a child residing in the US, the foreign parent illegally takes the child from the US and flees home.  

Educate yourself before posting things that if the OP follows your advice could cause her to lose her child for good.   So, stop making stuff up.

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/international-parental-kidnapping

 

International Parental Kidnapping

          Federal law prohibits a parent from removing a child from the United States or retaining a child in another country with intent to obstruct another parent´s custodial rights.  This crime is known as international parental kidnapping. For example, consider that a married couple had a son together in the United States.  During a martial dispute, the father moves with his son to another country in order to keep him away from the mother with no intent of return.  In this situation, the father has committed the federal crime of international parental kidnapping.  Convicted offenders of this crime can face up to three years of imprisonment. (For more information, see Citizen's Guide to Federal Law on International Parental Kidnapping).

 

Whether he is an abuser is for a court to determine.  There's the presumption of innocence.  


 

Edited June 7, 2020 by aaron2020

[HRQX 4,145]

8 minutes ago, aaron2020 said:

If you do a Google search, you will see that in most cases of international parental kidnapping involving a child residing in the US, the foreign parent illegally takes the child from the US and flees home.

Yup.

Some examples: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/parental-kidnappings

[geowrian 22,337]

32 minutes ago, Nitas_man said:

I am not commenting on a US case, I am viewing this from the perspective that the mother (and likely child) are citizens of another country.  
 

Jurisdiction is set at time of filing but there is certainly no case for kidnapping if a British citizen takes her British citizen baby home to escape an abuser in the US, especially if she asks nothing and leaves it up to the winner who abused her to find a lawyer who specializes in international custody to sort it out.  
 

Nobody’s doing anything about kidnapping until hearings are set, jurisdiction is established, and a ruling / order is issued (then) the kidnapper violates the order. 

I agree that the US-based parent would have to go through the effort to bring such a case, but to be clear, they do NOT have to show that they are a good parent or should be awarded custody. All they have to show is that the parent still has legal rights to the child and that the child was taken without their consent and is not being returned.

A private lawyer isn't needed...the DOS will provide assistance.

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/NEWIPCAAssets/2020 Annual Report and Appendices 1MAY2020.pdf

Quote

Criminal Laws and Remedies

International parental child abduction is a crime in the United States. Under the International Parental Kidnapping Crime Act, anyone who “removes a child from the United States, or attempts to do so, or retains a child (who has been in the United States) outside the United States with intent to obstruct the lawful exercise of parental rights” may be imprisoned for up to three years. In addition, every state and the District of Columbia have criminal laws regarding parental kidnapping. It is important that parents seek legal advice before moving or retaining a child across international borders.

 

The left-behind parent does not need to demonstrate that any claims of abuse are incorrect to bring a case under this treaty.

Quote

While the Department of State can refer survivors of domestic violence to various federal or state-specific organizations, shelters, attorneys, and other resources, it does not assess the veracity of domestic violence allegations, or any other factual matters,in abduction cases.

 

The citizenship of either the parent or child are not factors in whether an abduction occurred.

Yes, if the child is abroad then obviously the UK courts will be involved. But they are bound by the terms of the treaty as well...this is not a family court matter where they will determine who is better suited to take care of the child.

Edited June 7, 2020 by geowrian

[Nitas_man 3,100]

1 hour ago, aaron2020 said:

You're wrong.  

The child resides in the US with the mother and father.  Both parents have custodial rights.  The mother, regardless of citizenship, can not take the child and move him to another country without the father's permission or a court order allowing her to do so.  

 

If you do a Google search, you will see that in most cases of international parental kidnapping involving a child residing in the US, the foreign parent illegally takes the child from the US and flees home.  

Educate yourself before posting things that if the OP follows your advice could cause her to lose her child for good.   So, stop making stuff up.

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/international-parental-kidnapping

 

International Parental Kidnapping

          Federal law prohibits a parent from removing a child from the United States or retaining a child in another country with intent to obstruct another parent´s custodial rights.  This crime is known as international parental kidnapping. For example, consider that a married couple had a son together in the United States.  During a martial dispute, the father moves with his son to another country in order to keep him away from the mother with no intent of return.  In this situation, the father has committed the federal crime of international parental kidnapping.  Convicted offenders of this crime can face up to three years of imprisonment. (For more information, see Citizen's Guide to Federal Law on International Parental Kidnapping).

 

Whether he is an abuser is for a court to determine.  There's the presumption of innocence.  


 

I only share what I know and this is what I know for sure.

 

Affirmative defense:  18 USC 1204 (the magical parental “kidnapping” act that I suspect you have not actually read)

 

It shall be an affirmative defense that the Defendant was fleeing an incidence or pattern of domestic violence

 

I’ll let you look up the legal definition of affirmative defense.

 

You are labelling OP a potential criminal when the statute specifically addresses her situation.  We are not lawyers here by any means but I believe you folks jumped on this as a black and white issue when it clearly is not.

 

I believe OP can obtain a British passport for her child whether the other parent agrees or not.  My wife certainly can get and renew our kiddos backup passports without me.  

 

 

[Nitas_man 3,100]

1 hour ago, geowrian said:

I agree that the US-based parent would have to go through the effort to bring such a case, but to be clear, they do NOT have to show that they are a good parent or should be awarded custody. All they have to show is that the parent still has legal rights to the child and that the child was taken without their consent and is not being returned.

A private lawyer isn't needed...the DOS will provide assistance.

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/NEWIPCAAssets/2020 Annual Report and Appendices 1MAY2020.pdf

 

The left-behind parent does not need to demonstrate that any claims of abuse are incorrect to bring a case under this treaty.

 

The citizenship of either the parent or child are not factors in whether an abduction occurred.

Yes, if the child is abroad then obviously the UK courts will be involved. But they are bound by the terms of the treaty as well...this is not a family court matter where they will determine who is better suited to take care of the child.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/International-Parental-Child-Abduction/International-Parental-Child-Abduction-Country-Information/UnitedKingdom.html
 

This outlines the base process and it is neither straightforward nor easy.

 

It is up to OP to demonstrate that she is fleeing domestic violence but if she does that kidnapping case never sees the inside of a courtroom.

 

This is not black and white nor do they scramble jets to go take kiddos back.  

[geowrian 22,337]

25 minutes ago, Nitas_man said:

It is up to OP to demonstrate that she is fleeing domestic violence but if she does that kidnapping case never sees the inside of a courtroom.

Yes, it is up to her to demonstrate it. Failure to do so has very serious consequences...both in terms of criminal liability but also possibly in her ability to see the child in the future.

I'm not saying it's impossible...but it absolutely should not be a suggestion by anybody who does not have a clear understanding of the exact circumstances, and skills + knowledge provide that kind of advice. That would be highly irresponsible.

 

No, it's not a "100% the child will be returned and she will be charged/convicted of abduction". But the burden would be on her to show that she qualifies for that exception.

The advice stands as "do not leave with the child". It's a very high consequence action when there are far better options available. This is not a "Do First, ask for forgiveness later" circumstance.

 

Note: that link refers to the DOS not assisting somebody with removing their child from another country to bring them to the US. That's different than taking from the US to another country...the DOS provides assistance (but not legal advice or representation!) with that per my previous link. They have a form to start the process there, and then you work with a Country Officer to proceed. Then the foreign Central Authority does their part. Only after that would it go to any sort of court proceeding. At that point, both sides should have representation (although idk how the UK's CA handles that part..apparently some countries provide an agent or representative). The burden will be on her.

[SalishSea 17,829]

12 hours ago, Nitas_man said:

Im not sure that all of this kidnapping stuff is correct.

 

Absent a court order either parent at this time can pick up and take the baby anywhere they want.

Even parents who are married and not at odds are usually required to have written permission to take a minor child into another country.

 

I took my son from Seattle to Victoria on the clipper for his 15th bday, and Canada customs and immigration took a copy of the notarized permission from my ex to travel with Colin.  

[SalishSea 17,829]

10 hours ago, Nitas_man said:

I believe OP can obtain a British passport for her child whether the other parent agrees or not.  My wife certainly can get and renew our kiddos backup passports without me.  

 

My ex and I both had to consent to our sons' British passports (initial - they were teenagers) and renewals for the US passports.  

[NikLR 13,227]

29 minutes ago, Jorgedig said:

Even parents who are married and not at odds are usually required to have written permission to take a minor child into another country.

 

I took my son from Seattle to Victoria on the clipper for his 15th bday, and Canada customs and immigration took a copy of the notarized permission from my ex to travel with Colin.  

This is true! My daughter lives in Canada and until age 16 has needed consent from either (or both) of us to go across the border.  I was once travelling with her to Hawaii where her father was already on vacation and needed consent.  Had an acquaintance asked for consent to take her son to Disneyland, and produced a copy of her husband's death certificate.  

 

No we're not always asked, but when you are and you don't have it, then youre in trouble. 

[NikLR 13,227]

OP, i hope you reconsider that being in a shelter is better than being abused.  Dont put your child at risk! Be safe. 

[Nitas_man 3,100]

2 hours ago, Jorgedig said:

Even parents who are married and not at odds are usually required to have written permission to take a minor child into another country.

 

I took my son from Seattle to Victoria on the clipper for his 15th bday, and Canada customs and immigration took a copy of the notarized permission from my ex to travel with Colin.  

I’ve never been asked for anything like that traveling in or out of the country with the kiddos.

 

We lived in Saudi for 8 years.  
Summertime  - Our spouses and kiddos were outa there before the report card ink was dry.  We (expats) scheduled our summer leave for part of that but it was more common for them to precede us and us to join after and return before they did.

 

These are trips to every continent - lots of US and Canadian folks over there included.

 

I am not aware of even one single instance  of anyone of my colleagues or their spouses being stopped, challenged, or bothered (in any way) on these trips.  Example I flew over to the US with our daughter in 2017 (she was eight) to attend my oldest’s college graduation then flew over to Indo to join Nita and our son a couple weeks later.  We were in and out.  Smooth trip.  Had a great time.
 

I know it happens occasionally but “being in trouble without a permission slip” is a bit exaggerated.  With that said y’all said it’s required and we all know how it works here on VJ so ima ask y’all to please post that written requirement just like I posted the 18 USC 1204 rules.

 

Some countries require consent for passports and some do not.  I did not see that requirement for UK passports but we both have to apply for US passport renewals together.

[Duke & Marie 1,389]

13 hours ago, Nitas_man said:

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/International-Parental-Child-Abduction/International-Parental-Child-Abduction-Country-Information/UnitedKingdom.html
 

This outlines the base process and it is neither straightforward nor easy.

 

It is up to OP to demonstrate that she is fleeing domestic violence but if she does that kidnapping case never sees the inside of a courtroom.

 

This is not black and white nor do they scramble jets to go take kiddos back.  

Incorrect sorry... I have 8 years worth of DV and restraining orders on my ex and still couldn’t take the kids out of the country without his consent, both I and the kids had dual citizenship.... 

 

with ref to the kids, courts look at what’s in their best interest and irrespective of our thoughts the courts want to ensure that the children have a relationship with both parents even if it only under supervision the relationship is still important unless you can prove without doubt... 

 

No they don’t scramble jets, but they do contact the feds of whichever country your in and have them arrest you and remove the child from your care.. 

 

if she trys to take the child out of the country without the fathers or courts written concent, and the father complains the child will be returned to the US under Hague agreement.. unless of course she moves to a non signatory country but wouldn’t suggest she do that 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Duke & Marie

[Cody&Razely 134]

3 hours ago, NikLR said:

OP, i hope you reconsider that being in a shelter is better than being abused.  Dont put your child at risk! Be safe. 

Just a heads up, as someone who spent a substantial amount of time in "shelters" (yes that is multiples and not just 2 or 3) as a child with my single mom and siblings, the above comment may not be entirely accurate. It may depend on the level and severity and the OP definition of abuse (per perspective), ***!!!Speaking ONLY from my experiences!!!*** the shelters were on par with the abusive home (some were actually even worse, no joke). There is no telling what other kinds of personalities will be there and what kind of living situation one will then be put into with in that shelter, as well as the personality of those "managing it"; and keep in mind that, all! of those already there are coming from a severe situation and ALL! are in survival mode, that means different behaviors for different personality types, keep that in mind. just my $0.02 Yes, shelters are supposed to be there to fill a need and to suite a purpose and they "should be" a good a safe place, but at the end of the day, everyone is human including all those at and running places such as these.

Edited June 7, 2020 by codyfitzsimmons

[NikLR 13,227]

1 minute ago, codyfitzsimmons said:

Just a heads up, as someone who spent a substantial amount of time in "shelters" (yes that is multiples and not just 2 or 3) as a child with my single mom and siblings, the above comment may not be entirely accurate. It may depend on the level and severity and the OP definition of abuse (per perspective), ***!!!Speaking ONLY from my experiences!!!*** the shelters were on par with the abusive home (some were actually even worse, no joke). There is no telling what other kinds of personalities will be there and what kind of living situation one will then be in with in that shelter, as well as the personality of those "managing it" and keep in mind all! of those already there are coming from a severe situation and ALL! are in survival mode, that means different behaviors for different personality types, keep that in mind. just my $0.02 Yes, shelters are supposed to be their to fill a need and to suite a purpose and they "should be" a good a safe place, but at the end of the day, everyone is human including all those at and running paces such as these.

True.  Having friends or family would be more ideal. 

[NikLR 13,227]

~~moved to effects of major family changes from general immigration discussion~~