Coronavirus: How 'overreaction' made Vietnam a virus success

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

Forced quarantine is not an authoritarian response?  Btw, we tried to close our borders, probably too late at least with respect to the EU, but that brought about a lot of caterwauling from the usual suspect.

Closing your borders to citizens of a certain country only has a limited effectiveness if your own citizens are allowed back in with no screening. So what if Chinese citizens can't enter the US, US citizens coming from China can and they're just as likely to be infected and spread the virus. 

 

The US government regularly detains people for different reasons. You might think it's outrageous to force people to quarantine for a few weeks, but what other way is there to stop importing a virus? It's not like they're stuck in jail, it's just a facility that's not home, food and basic necessities are provided. Or you could do what South Korea does and ask them to quarantine at home, send them food and other basic goods and prosecute them if they break quarantine. Yes, it's not fun for the people having to be isolated but it's a small sacrifice for the greater good. It's really not that big of a deal having to spend two weeks in quarantine. New Zealand is doing something similar BTW. 

[Dashinka 24,741]

11 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Closing your borders to citizens of a certain country only has a limited effectiveness if your own citizens are allowed back in with no screening. So what if Chinese citizens can't enter the US, US citizens coming from China can and they're just as likely to be infected and spread the virus. 

 

The US government regularly detains people for different reasons. You might think it's outrageous to force people to quarantine for a few weeks, but what other way is there to stop importing a virus? It's not like they're stuck in jail, it's just a facility that's not home, food and basic necessities are provided. Or you could do what South Korea does and ask them to quarantine at home, send them food and other basic goods and prosecute them if they break quarantine. Yes, it's not fun for the people having to be isolated but it's a small sacrifice for the greater good. It's really not that big of a deal having to spend two weeks in quarantine. New Zealand is doing something similar BTW. 

I get it, we should scrap our republic, eliminate states rights, and forcibly detain US citizens upon their return without reasonable cause, and not allow them any freedoms.  Sounds like a plan.  We could say the same thing about China’s response and I believe the WHO is heaping quite a bit of praise on them.  Again, I always love these pieces that try to compare this country with that country.  I would look to the ROK, or Taiwan as the best way to do it and still keep their economy active,  it again, our government is not set up that way.  Other than the international borders, the federal government has very little power when it comes to pandemics.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

I get it, we should scrap our republic, eliminate states rights, and forcibly detain US citizens upon their return without reasonable cause, and not allow them any freedoms.  Sounds like a plan.  We could say the same thing about China’s response and I believe the WHO is heaping quite a bit of praise on them.  Again, I always love these pieces that try to compare this country with that country.  I would look to the ROK, or Taiwan as the best way to do it and still keep their economy active,  it again, our government is not set up that way.  Other than the international borders, the federal government has very little power when it comes to pandemics.

Taiwan and South Korea did a good job but few people are talking about Vietnam. South Korea enforces quarantine on people coming from abroad BTW. People just have to stay home. A few people were criminally charged for breaking quarantine. 

 

I don't care about states rights, sorry. It's entirely possible for the US to have a coordinated response with states and federal government working together but the response so far has been irresponsible. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

45 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

What did de Blasio try? As far as I know, he downplayed the pandemic in the beginning, also, he's just a mayor and he can't restrict travel or enforce quarantine and border control for example. 

 

And there are human rights problems, yes, but the success was due to other measures. And your quote doesn't cast doubt on the numbers. There is no reason to suspect that their numbers aren't accurate, that's why the international community uses not suspecting them of fabricating the data the way they are with China and North Korea. 

 

The truth is that Vietnam had the same information as every other country, they decided to not trust China and take swift action. Their success is an embarrassment for Italy and the US (as well as other countries) and Italy an the US should be embarrassed. 

 

36 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

You're just ignoring the fact that no reliable source or country doubts Vietnam's data. What you're saying is just speculation. 

 

Personally, I approve of citizens being responsible and reporting violations. However, this is a very small part of the response and not even the biggest reason for the success. 

 

The facts are that Vietnam did a good job and it's petty not to acknowledge it. 

 

29 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Closing your borders to citizens of a certain country only has a limited effectiveness if your own citizens are allowed back in with no screening. So what if Chinese citizens can't enter the US, US citizens coming from China can and they're just as likely to be infected and spread the virus. 

 

The US government regularly detains people for different reasons. You might think it's outrageous to force people to quarantine for a few weeks, but what other way is there to stop importing a virus? It's not like they're stuck in jail, it's just a facility that's not home, food and basic necessities are provided. Or you could do what South Korea does and ask them to quarantine at home, send them food and other basic goods and prosecute them if they break quarantine. Yes, it's not fun for the people having to be isolated but it's a small sacrifice for the greater good. It's really not that big of a deal having to spend two weeks in quarantine. New Zealand is doing something similar BTW. 

 

Vietnam didn't enact travel restrictions until mid-late March.

 

In the US, the CDC was screening people in January and the first travel restrictions were enacted at the beginning of February.

 

Indeed, one of the biggest problems was anyone trusting China, but also local officials (including federal representatives like Nancy Pelosi telling people in the Bay Area) spreading Chinese propaganda telling people to engage in behaviors that spread the virus.

 

Of course, what you demand is far too little, far too late. 

 

This sort of stuff, btw, is incompatible with the United States, but something we're seeing lots of in the "too little, too late" stage (from your own article):

Quote

 

Enforcing social distancing and quarantine relied on its entrenched system of "loyal neighbourhood party cadres spying on area residents and reporting to superiors", says Phil Robertson of Human Rights Watch,

There were undoubtedly "rights-violating excesses" in the process, he told the BBC.

"But not many people will hear about those episodes because of the government's total control of the media," he adds, citing cases of people being fined or prosecuted for criticising the government response.

 

 

No thanks. 

 

Also, the left need to make up their mind. They call Trump a power grabber, authoritarian, compare him to Hitler, and so on, but then they demand Trump have the kind of power and enact government takeovers of media and people's private lives that goes way beyond even the caricatures of him.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

I wish the US had done anything like what any successful country had done. Vietnam doesn't have much resources, so that's what they did. South Korea has more resources, so they had a different approach. Either approach would have been better than the current disaster and the nearly 90k deaths, the actual number is probably way too bigger. 

 

The US messed up, other countries did a good job. It's OK to admit it. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

Doubtful its that many, given the criteria used to attribute the death to the virus.

 

Nonetheless, Vietnam is a communist country, and I highlighted the incompatibilities. The US will never be Vietnam.

 

South Korea is a tiny country with significant population density and much more appealing logistics. The US will never be South Korea.

 

If you want even a semi-comparable country, why are you ignoring Canada? Right next to the US, and while it has far less conflicts in that their government is straight forward top-down (despite supposedly independent provinces), Canada has had the same results, followed by the same idiotic overreactions after-the-fact to save face. 

 

There were definitely things the US could've done better, the arguments made here ("be like South Korea/Vietnam!") aren't among them. 

[TBoneTX 45,962]

48 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

it's a small sacrifice for the greater good

Famous first words of totalitarians, who are invariably so much smarter, so much wiser, so much more sage, so much more all-knowing than the deplorable peasants who don't know what's good for them.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

51 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

Famous first words of totalitarians, who are invariably so much smarter, so much wiser, so much more sage, so much more all-knowing than the deplorable peasants who don't know what's good for them.

Sorry, I don't think that quarantining people in the comfort of their own home for a few weeks is oppression. But many right wingers think people's lives are worth nothing because "freedom". 

 

The inconvenient truth - the US has an incompetent government that handled this the worst way possible and people are paying for it. But admitting that a communist country did better than the US is too much.

 

New Zealand is also quarantining travelers, I guess they're communist, too? Except that they have actual freedoms now and they can go about their lives without worrying about the virus. 

[Ban Hammer 13,491]

1 hour ago, Orangesapples said:

Personally, I approve of citizens being responsible and reporting violations.

 

and all this time i thought gauleiters were a thing of the past.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

BTW, the US is so "free" that it has the highest incarceration rate in the world. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

 

Nearly 1 in 100 people in the US is currently behind bars :

 

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/01/16/percent-incarcerated/

 

And let's not even mention Guantanamo Bay. And the NSA spying 

 

But you know, quarantining people in order to prevent pandemics and giving them food and support is oppression. 

[Ban Hammer 13,491]

[Dashinka 24,741]

20 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Sorry, I don't think that quarantining people in the comfort of their own home for a few weeks is oppression. But many right wingers think people's lives are worth nothing because "freedom". 

 

The inconvenient truth - the US has an incompetent government that handled this the worst way possible and people are paying for it. But admitting that a communist country did better than the US is too much.

 

New Zealand is also quarantining travelers, I guess they're communist, too? Except that they have actual freedoms now and they can go about their lives without worrying about the virus. 

The US has many incompetent governors who are in charge during a pandemic.  Some even put Covid19 patients back into nursing home.  As I stated, the federal government is really powerless over public health emergencies regardless of how much you would like to see Trump act the totalitarian. 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

The US has many incompetent governors who are in charge during a pandemic.  Some even put Covid19 patients back into nursing home.  As I stated, the federal government is really powerless over public health emergencies regardless of how much you would like to see Trump act the totalitarian. 

Yes, it's not just Trump but he could have coordinated a response and he could have coordinated better testing and distribution of PPE instead of letting his son in law get wild. 

 

Well, of course, he's incapable of planning and actual leadership and he doesn't have the intelligence required to do something like this. He's also incapable of caring about anything other than his own image and himself. The worst kind of leader to have during an actual crisis, at least he gave us all some good laughs with his medical advice. 

 

I love how the dear leader followers will do anything to defend him. The mental gymnastics is remarkable. 

[Dashinka 24,741]

6 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Yes, it's not just Trump but he could have coordinated a response and he could have coordinated better testing and distribution of PPE instead of letting his son in law get wild. 

 

Well, of course, he's incapable of planning and actual leadership and he doesn't have the intelligence required to do something like this. He's also incapable of caring about anything other than his own image and himself. The worst kind of leader to have during an actual crisis, at least he gave us all some good laughs with his medical advice. 

 

I love how the dear leader followers will do anything to defend him. The mental gymnastics is remarkable. 

The various state governors are under no obligation to listen to the federal government when dealing with public health emergencies.  All state governments and many large cities and counties have their own public health experts that they use for these type of decisions.  As you see, the CDC only puts out guidelines, or recommendations, but no one has to follow these.  I am not defending Trump here, just putting the responsibility where it lies.  The feds could have done much better with respect to strategic reserves, and potentially implemented the defense production act sooner, but they still have to rely on the various governors for accurate accounts of their needs.  I do find it funny how you use the term “Dear Leader” when you are suggesting that President Trump should have acted more like the rotund leader of the DPRK.  Which is it?  

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

30 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

BTW, the US is so "free" that it has the highest incarceration rate in the world. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

 

Nearly 1 in 100 people in the US is currently behind bars :

 

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/01/16/percent-incarcerated/

 

And let's not even mention Guantanamo Bay. And the NSA spying 

 

But you know, quarantining people in order to prevent pandemics and giving them food and support is oppression. 

"US isn't free.. look, people use freedoms to break laws! Classic non-freedom!"

 

"See, foreign terrorists being held in Guantanamo is proof that the Americans have no freedoms!"