Experts demolish studies suggesting COVID-19 is no worse than flu

[Dashinka 24,741]

2 hours ago, 90DayFinancier said:

Thanks, we have so many medical experts here, it would be an honor to be on the VJ expert Covid-19 committee. 

As my first proposal, I suggest we quit quoting conspiracy theory sites that swear this virus came from a Chinese lab, or us no deadly than the flu, or us a conspiracy to keep Trump from reelection.

 

Yes, we should believe the mainstream media sources that tell us if we get Covid19 it is just as bad as Ebola.  Btw, I think your use of the term expert is wrong.  One thing we can learn from this is that many experts disagree on a lot.

[Xyrstine 224]

Are we denying how infectious and deadly this is? Who cares how the numbers add up to seasonal flu death rates or not... These were not deemed pandemics. I don't see how anyone can refute the devastating impact this virus is having globally?

 

Yes, we don't know enough to truly highlight it's effects but I'm not wearing head to toe PPE for the fun of it in ICUs and avoiding viral doses from those that are infected's exhaled air. So yes, masks are proven to reduce risk of infection- mainly by you spreading it to others.

 

Those that are walking around with minimal disturbance to their lives- great, you and your community have it lucky so far, and maybe until this tides over... That doesn't negate the fact that it IS hitting many people hard and especially in heavily dense populations.

 

Yes, people die all the time... However this is avoidable. I'm all for easing up on restrictions but not because it infringes of entitled people's freedom but because it is deemed a positive risk taking step. That requires patience.

 

And this effect it has on people's livelihoods and finance... Look closer at your government who have allowed such little rights as employees and even employers. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Xyrstine

[Dashinka 24,741]

3 hours ago, Xyrstine said:

Are we denying how infectious and deadly this is? Who cares how the numbers add up to seasonal flu death rates or not... These were not deemed pandemics. I don't see how anyone can refute the devastating impact this virus is having globally?

 

Yes, we don't know enough to truly highlight it's effects but I'm not wearing head to toe PPE for the fun of it in ICUs and avoiding viral doses from those that are infected's exhaled air. So yes, masks are proven to reduce risk of infection- mainly by you spreading it to others.

 

Those that are walking around with minimal disturbance to their lives- great, you and your community have it lucky so far, and maybe until this tides over... That doesn't negate the fact that it IS hitting many people hard and especially in heavily dense populations.

 

Yes, people die all the time... However this is avoidable. I'm all for easing up on restrictions but not because it infringes of entitled people's freedom but because it is deemed a positive risk taking step. That requires patience.

 

And this effect it has on people's livelihoods and finance... Look closer at your government who have allowed such little rights as employees and even employers. 

Then why, if this has an overall mortality in the same ballpark as the flu even without a partially effective vaccine, don’t we close down the economy every year and shelter in place during flu season?  The flu, or any other widely infectious disease is also avoidable if we live in a bubble.  On top of that, no one seems to care about the overall effects these lockdowns will have long term on even more people than this virus.  

[90DayFinancier 910]

27 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Then why, if this has an overall mortality in the same ballpark as the flu

Stop there, prove this part.

27 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

even without a partially effective vaccine,

which were are months away from.

27 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

 

 

don’t we close down the economy every year and shelter in place during flu season?  The flu, or any other widely infectious disease is also avoidable if we live in a bubble.  On top of that, no one seems to care about the overall effects these lockdowns will have long term on even more people than this virus.  

 

 

[Dashinka 24,741]

14 minutes ago, 90DayFinancier said:

Stop there, prove this part.

which were are months away from.

 

 

There is already a thread detailing the numbers from the antibody testing with moe being added all the time showing the actual mortality is much closer to the seasonal flu.  Everyday we are learning moe and more about the numbers of infected that experience little or no symptoms.

 

As to the vaccine part, you missed the point entirely.  The seasonal flu has a partially effective vaccine and yet the mortality rate is still in the 0.1-0.2% by estimation.  We are far if ever from getting an even partially effective vaccine for this new virus.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Dashinka

[Xyrstine 224]

Where are we getting these numbers for supposed antibody testing? In the UK these were deemed inaccurate and therefore yet to be implemented. From the reports that I have read- not enough people have gained immunity to this virus despite being infected and potentially could be reinfected. 

 

As for mortality rates..  I don't think you all realise how it will ravage some people completely if given the power to do so, if measures were not put in place or not eased of slowly. I doubt we are seeing the true numbers mortality rates compared to seasonal flu. And yes, speculation... But I know what's more deadly, right here and right now and I'm not risking my life or my family's any more than I need to. 

 

No one is denying the lasting impact this will have on the economy and people's mental health and well as financial health... But if people were truly concerned about those things they would be fighting for assistance in these areas prior to this pandemic. 

[Xyrstine 224]

1 hour ago, Dashinka said:

Then why, if this has an overall mortality in the same ballpark as the flu even without a partially effective vaccine, don’t we close down the economy every year and shelter in place during flu season?  The flu, or any other widely infectious disease is also avoidable if we live in a bubble.  On top of that, no one seems to care about the overall effects these lockdowns will have long term on even more people than this virus.  

Because everyone on top who are making these decisions (which is almost every country in place) also agree with how deadly it is compared to seasonal flu.... I don't see how this is hard to comprehend. We are all very much concerned with long term effects but for now our immediate concerns with regards to survival of our people are at our utmost priority and should be. No one denying measures should be lifted... But they should be down cautiously with mass testing and isolation periods to limit ongoing spread and deaths.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I don’t ever recall the bodies piling up like this from the regular flu. What’s up with that? 

[Xyrstine 224]

Just now, spookyturtle said:

I don’t ever recall the bodies piling up like this from the regular flu. What’s up with that? 

And still remaining infectious even after death. It is horrible. But no, "no worse than flu".

[Dashinka 24,741]

5 minutes ago, Xyrstine said:

Where are we getting these numbers for supposed antibody testing? In the UK these were deemed inaccurate and therefore yet to be implemented. From the reports that I have read- not enough people have gained immunity to this virus despite being infected and potentially could be reinfected. 

 

As for mortality rates..  I don't think you all realise how it will ravage some people completely if given the power to do so, if measures were not put in place or not eased of slowly. I doubt we are seeing the true numbers mortality rates compared to seasonal flu. And yes, speculation... But I know what's more deadly, right here and right now and I'm not risking my life or my family's any more than I need to. 

 

No one is denying the lasting impact this will have on the economy and people's mental health and well as financial health... But if people were truly concerned about those things they would be fighting for assistance in these areas prior to this pandemic. 

Measures were put in place to reduce stress on the medical community.  Some countries changed strategies midstream, some locked down early, and some did not lock down at all.  We have comparisons all over the place, but I like to look at Sweden vs Michigan, which is a valid a comparison as any other country or state to Italy or Spain.  The curve has been flattened as we have already discussed, but that doesn’t change the area under the curve.

 

As to the antibody testing, he is the thread discussing this aspect.

 

 

[Xyrstine 224]

18 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Measures were put in place to reduce stress on the medical community.  Some countries changed strategies midstream, some locked down early, and some did not lock down at all.  We have comparisons all over the place, but I like to look at Sweden vs Michigan, which is a valid a comparison as any other country or state to Italy or Spain.  The curve has been flattened as we have already discussed, but that doesn’t change the area under the curve.

 

As to the antibody testing, he is the thread discussing this aspect.

 

 

And when they saw how well it was working and how it wasn't they are able to predict and decide how to move forward with it. Theres no denying there will be more deaths but the agenda remains most countries want is to obviously reduce risk of this happening. Some people have stated that in Sweden despite there being an official lockdown, they are still social distancing and self isolating. 

 

Even our prime minister rightly stated, MANY Will die before their time. If there's any way to reduce that risk... Which is lifting measures slowly- how can anyone honestly argue with that?

 

And that report is interesting considering the UK abandoned plans wanting to test NHS frontline staff for antibody testing here. It would have been in their interest to "prove" how some are immune. That's not been the data collected here and it has been deemed too inaccurate/faulty to implement. No doubt, more testing is needed. This pandemic will be in countless studies in years to come... Obviously too late by then.

 

I don't see why we are cherry picking statistics to suit our narrative here which seems to be the case a lot here. We have had it hit hard here, and in areas that it has- views will have changed. I was initially one of the ones who very much downplayed mass hysteria and said it's like the flu when it was first reported. After seeing the cold hard truth and the numbers first hand in my populated city and overall country I knew how it was completely different to anything I have witnessed in this lifetime. People were coming in thick and fast being intubated one after another... This was the effects of no measures and herd immunity. 

 

No one wants to be responsible for lifting measures too quick to be responsible for a huge cull. That's the honest truth and we will get more spikes in death, maybe this is unavoidable once we have to start reopening businesses but as I keep repeating- it should be done slowly with safety mechanisms in place such as testing and self guides to isolative periods. The world will not be the same in a good while. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Xyrstine

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

13 hours ago, OriZ said:

People might have several errands, and it's safer to keep your mask on than take it off and put it back on several times in a short timespan

True, but I don't think that's the bulk of it  I see it happening as people are driving into my neighborhood to go home.  One way in only.

As SOON as I walk out the store and my hands are once again clean, the mask comes off, usually before I get back into the vehicle.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, 90DayFinancier said:

Stop there, prove this part.

which were are months away from.

 

 

I have, many times.  The fact that you choose ti IGNORE the proof does not therefore make it less real.

[Dashinka 24,741]

34 minutes ago, Xyrstine said:

And when they saw how well it was working and how it wasn't they are able to predict and decide how to move forward with it. Theres no denying there will be more deaths but the agenda remains most countries want is to obviously reduce risk of this happening. Some people have stated that in Sweden despite there being an official lockdown, they are still social distancing and self isolating. 

 

Even our prime minister rightly stated, MANY Will die before their time. If there's any way to reduce that risk... Which is lifting measures slowly- how can anyone honestly argue with that?

 

And that report is interesting considering the UK abandoned plans wanting to test NHS frontline staff for antibody testing here. It would have been in their interest to "prove" how some are immune. That's not been the data collected here and it has been deemed too inaccurate/faulty to implement. No doubt, more testing is needed. This pandemic will be in countless studies in years to come... Obviously too late by then.

 

I don't see why we are cherry picking statistics to suit our narrative here which seems to be the case a lot here. We have had it hit hard here, and in areas that it has- views will have changed. I was initially one of the ones who very much downplayed mass hysteria and said it's like the flu when it was first reported. After seeing the cold hard truth and the numbers first hand in my populated city and overall country I knew how it was completely different to anything I have witnessed in this lifetime. People were coming in thick and fast being intubated one after another... This was the effects of no measures and herd immunity. 

 

No one wants to be responsible for lifting measures too quick to be responsible for a huge cull. That's the honest truth and we will get more spikes in death, maybe this is unavoidable once we have to start reopening businesses but as I keep repeating- it should be done slowly with safety mechanisms in place such as testing and self guides to isolative periods. The world will not be the same in a good while. 

My point is with the Sweden comparison is that we can do similar things without the heavy handed enforcement of many governors that seem to think we are idiots and cannot take necessary precautions according to guidelines.  There is also the fact that one size does not fit all even at the state level.  Lockdowns could have been more targeted to those areas where they were necessary, but here in the US even though the vast majority of the cases are on the East coast we had media saying we needed to shutdown the entire country.  Why?  You look at areas like WA and CA and those states are well past their peaks yet remain mostly on lockdown.  People can be scarred by this illness in some cases permanently, but far more people will be scarred due to the economic crisis where we are already seeing signs.  The solution to that upcoming crisis is not to print more money, the debt to GDP ratio is already near a point of no return, and now states and cities are lobbying for more debt to cover their revenue shortfalls.  Everything is a prediction including the impacts of this virus, but the economic stress is mostly manmade.

 

As to statistics, this is true for both sides.  There is a faction at least here in the US that want to paint this virus as the most deadly thing we have ever encountered, and others that are saying take a step back and actually look at all the data.  The biggest issue I see with the reported numbers being tracked by various sites is that they only track verified infections and deaths.  Why is the media not also tracking hospitalizations, ventilator usage, recoveries.  Heck our state reports deaths everyday, but recoveries only get reported once a week.  I am a positive person by nature, but this self imposed economic catastrophe coming does not look good.

[Xyrstine 224]

19 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

My point is with the Sweden comparison is that we can do similar things without the heavy handed enforcement of many governors that seem to think we are idiots and cannot take necessary precautions according to guidelines.  There is also the fact that one size does not fit all even at the state level.  Lockdowns could have been more targeted to those areas where they were necessary, but here in the US even though the vast majority of the cases are on the East coast we had media saying we needed to shutdown the entire country.  Why?  You look at areas like WA and CA and those states are well past their peaks yet remain mostly on lockdown.  People can be scarred by this illness in some cases permanently, but far more people will be scarred due to the economic crisis where we are already seeing signs.  The solution to that upcoming crisis is not to print more money, the debt to GDP ratio is already near a point of no return, and now states and cities are lobbying for more debt to cover their revenue shortfalls.  Everything is a prediction including the impacts of this virus, but the economic stress is mostly manmade.

 

As to statistics, this is true for both sides.  There is a faction at least here in the US that want to paint this virus as the most deadly thing we have ever encountered, and others that are saying take a step back and actually look at all the data.  The biggest issue I see with the reported numbers being tracked by various sites is that they only track verified infections and deaths.  Why is the media not also tracking hospitalizations, ventilator usage, recoveries.  Heck our state reports deaths everyday, but recoveries only get reported once a week.  I am a positive person by nature, but this self imposed economic catastrophe coming does not look good.

Here's the thing- I don't disagree with you. I previously posted how each state should be slowly lifting measures as how their stats show peak status etc but each state will be different. However it will be difficult to contain each state in its own domain with regards to peak status and avoiding double peaks, so people will be looking into a national response to when measures should be lifted. This is due to free and easy travel between the states. That's where the additional dilemma comes in and why precautionary measures should still be in place. The Swedes are perceived as much more government compliant to US/UK so there numbers will differ.

 

People will assumed my posts mean I want people to stay home and twiddle their homes in a bubble indefinitely. It's really not. I want to travel and see my husband and family as much as the next person but it requires extensive mechanisms in place like mass testing which most governments really are failing at. Strong leadership is also key factor in guiding your country to where it needs to be which is also lacking in many problem countries. 

 

I also think more transparency is required for figures and consistency in reporting. I think it will bring weight to both sides of the arguments- mainly towards apprehension in lifting measures quickly. I know even after the peak, ICUs will still have a lot on their hands until a vaccine is found due to the complexity, and infectious and lethal nature of this virus. Recoveries after hospitalisation is a slow painful process so I can see why the figures show up slower.

 

I don't think anyone will be fudging up stats to bump up fatalities if anything it's in everyone's best interest for it not to. That's why I find it hard to understand for those that are debating these numbers to suit their rhetoric.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Xyrstine