question about the new public charge rule and I485 adjustment of status

[Villanelle 4,121]

@MoroccanLover40

 

Ive read all 6 pages and I have to say either you are genuinely confused and not understanding what people are trying to tell you or you are intentionally trying to disguise info to get help on how to work the system. Personally it seems to me that you are genuinely confused based on your responses so I am going to try to explain it to you. Sorry in advance if this is long and or repetitive.

 

There are 3 things here. Immigration/USCIS, taxes/IRS, snap/local social services office. They are 3 different and independent agencies but they impact each other. 

So lets start with IRS. IRS is the tax agency. You are required to report any and all income and pay the appropriate tax due. And you are allowed to claim any deductions you are eligible for to reduce the amount of tax due. Please note the difference in wording. Required to report vs allowed to claim . You are not required to claim deductions. You can do so providing the deduction you are claiming you are qualified to claim. Are you with me? So you repeated stated you had your taxes done by a professional and you chose to claim your parents because you qualified to claim them as dependents. Which means your taxes were done correctly and your parents are/were able to be claimed as dependents by you. So it sounds like there is nothing wrong with the way you filed.

 

Now USCIS wants you to fill out the 864. On it they want to know your household size. The instructions are very specific about how to calculate household size. I do not have it in front of me but it states to include yourself, your spouse, any children you have whether they live with you or not. Any dependents you listed on your taxes AND anyone who you might not have listed on your taxes that you provide support for (because as explained above you are not required to claim someone as a dependent, so theoretically you could have dependents that you do not claim on taxes). 

 

If the question is how much water is in the glass- this is not a glass half full vs glass half empty type scenario. Its a the glass has 3.5oz of water. There is only one correct answer. You either provide support for your parents or you do not. Because you were able to correctly claim them on your taxes - they are your dependents. People have tried to express this to you and you respond with trying to frame it in a different light. Once again this is not subjective. Even if you didnt elect to claim them on your taxes the 864 wants to know about anyone you provide support for. But you did claim them and you do provide support for them- so they are going to have to be included on your 864.

 

Stepping aside for a minute- lets talk about snap. Do your parents have any income? Do they file their own tax returns (where they would check the box that states someone can claim me as a dependent)?  Im going to assume they dont file their own taxes due to either having no income or being below the guidelines to file. Regardless- snap is based on not only a persons income but their household income and household size. It seems Snap believes your parents have a household size of 2 (just them) and Snap does not know that you provide support to your parents (and have claimed such on your taxes). So Snap calculated out benefits to them based on a household size of 2 and income from 2. This is incorrect. Your parents household size for Snap should include you (and now your wife) and income from all 4 of you. 

 

Your parents can not be an independent household of 2 for Snap purposes and then be part of a household of 4 for tax purposes, and then you get to choose what household configuration works best for USCIS.  So it seems your parents have been incorrectly receiving Snap benefits (and very likely they also get Medicaid correct?). If so this is a HUGE problem that you all need to correct because penalties for doing such includes JAIL. I am positive you do not want your elderly parents incarcerated over this. And I assure you if they are caught they will be. You MUST do something about this. You need to contact the social service office and straighten all this out asap. Its a good thing you have 40k in the bank because they are going to need it to pay back benefits they werent entitled to. As others have stated if you are above the guidelines for a household of 4 there is no way your parents are entitled to Snap or Medicaid. 

 

Going back to USCIS and the 864. The fact that your true household size is 4 is not necessarily going to be a problem if you have income for a household of 4. The problem is going to be 2 members of your 4 member household are getting/have gotten snap (and possibly Medicaid) benefits. This will be held against you. 

 

You can attempt to separate your households. However this does not mean simply electing not to claim them on your taxes. Again electing to claim them or not is optional. You can still provide support for them and not claim them on your taxes. Both USCIS and Snap are interested in the facts of the situation not whether or not you elected for deductions. Does that make sense?  Are you prepared to actually stop providing support to your parents? Are they able to afford covering their own expenses? 

 

Have you sent in your AOS package again? Look through what you sent. Did you claim a household of 4? Did you disclose on it in the appropriate spots that 2 of the 4 members get snap/medicaid? 

[geowrian 22,337]

^Head the above. It's very well broken down.

Edited April 22, 2020 by geowrian

[MoroccanLover40 2]

23 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

@MoroccanLover40

 

Ive read all 6 pages and I have to say either you are genuinely confused and not understanding what people are trying to tell you or you are intentionally trying to disguise info to get help on how to work the system. Personally it seems to me that you are genuinely confused based on your responses so I am going to try to explain it to you. Sorry in advance if this is long and or repetitive.

 

There are 3 things here. Immigration/USCIS, taxes/IRS, snap/local social services office. They are 3 different and independent agencies but they impact each other. 

So lets start with IRS. IRS is the tax agency. You are required to report any and all income and pay the appropriate tax due. And you are allowed to claim any deductions you are eligible for to reduce the amount of tax due. Please note the difference in wording. Required to report vs allowed to claim . You are not required to claim deductions. You can do so providing the deduction you are claiming you are qualified to claim. Are you with me? So you repeated stated you had your taxes done by a professional and you chose to claim your parents because you qualified to claim them as dependents. Which means your taxes were done correctly and your parents are/were able to be claimed as dependents by you. So it sounds like there is nothing wrong with the way you filed.

 

Now USCIS wants you to fill out the 864. On it they want to know your household size. The instructions are very specific about how to calculate household size. I do not have it in front of me but it states to include yourself, your spouse, any children you have whether they live with you or not. Any dependents you listed on your taxes AND anyone who you might not have listed on your taxes that you provide support for (because as explained above you are not required to claim someone as a dependent, so theoretically you could have dependents that you do not claim on taxes). 

 

If the question is how much water is in the glass- this is not a glass half full vs glass half empty type scenario. Its a the glass has 3.5oz of water. There is only one correct answer. You either provide support for your parents or you do not. Because you were able to correctly claim them on your taxes - they are your dependents. People have tried to express this to you and you respond with trying to frame it in a different light. Once again this is not subjective. Even if you didnt elect to claim them on your taxes the 864 wants to know about anyone you provide support for. But you did claim them and you do provide support for them- so they are going to have to be included on your 864.

 

Stepping aside for a minute- lets talk about snap. Do your parents have any income? Do they file their own tax returns (where they would check the box that states someone can claim me as a dependent)?  Im going to assume they dont file their own taxes due to either having no income or being below the guidelines to file. Regardless- snap is based on not only a persons income but their household income and household size. It seems Snap believes your parents have a household size of 2 (just them) and Snap does not know that you provide support to your parents (and have claimed such on your taxes). So Snap calculated out benefits to them based on a household size of 2 and income from 2. This is incorrect. Your parents household size for Snap should include you (and now your wife) and income from all 4 of you. 

 

Your parents can not be an independent household of 2 for Snap purposes and then be part of a household of 4 for tax purposes, and then you get to choose what household configuration works best for USCIS.  So it seems your parents have been incorrectly receiving Snap benefits (and very likely they also get Medicaid correct?). If so this is a HUGE problem that you all need to correct because penalties for doing such includes JAIL. I am positive you do not want your elderly parents incarcerated over this. And I assure you if they are caught they will be. You MUST do something about this. You need to contact the social service office and straighten all this out asap. Its a good thing you have 40k in the bank because they are going to need it to pay back benefits they werent entitled to. As others have stated if you are above the guidelines for a household of 4 there is no way your parents are entitled to Snap or Medicaid. 

 

Going back to USCIS and the 864. The fact that your true household size is 4 is not necessarily going to be a problem if you have income for a household of 4. The problem is going to be 2 members of your 4 member household are getting/have gotten snap (and possibly Medicaid) benefits. This will be held against you. 

 

You can attempt to separate your households. However this does not mean simply electing not to claim them on your taxes. Again electing to claim them or not is optional. You can still provide support for them and not claim them on your taxes. Both USCIS and Snap are interested in the facts of the situation not whether or not you elected for deductions. Does that make sense?  Are you prepared to actually stop providing support to your parents? Are they able to afford covering their own expenses? 

 

Have you sent in your AOS package again? Look through what you sent. Did you claim a household of 4? Did you disclose on it in the appropriate spots that 2 of the 4 members get snap/medicaid? 

Confused as I have my own money and don't need to cheat the system in any kind of way. Parents are on welfare because they don't have anything else except that $200 they get monthly. No ss or anything. 

$0 income from both of them for the last 30 years or so. 

 

Our new application we are sending in is including my parents on the household size portion. I am waiting for my wife's high school diploma and college degree to send along with the public charge paperwork. 

 

Snap I take them to their yearly interviews and their case manager states its not a problem that they are living in the house because its either that or the streets and I can't do that to them obviously.  Doing this for 20+ years now btw. Different case managers each time as well.

 

Lastly I had a 30min phone conversation with my lawyer and he said this is a new rule and you're my first client with this situation so he doesn't know for certain but states your wife will get her green even if we have to take this to immigration court and go up to a judge. He seems very confident but I am not so much. 

 

Hopefully I answered everything but I think if we get denied again I will need to amend my taxes and not count them as my dependents even if I do support them and can legally claim them but its a negative factor for me because they are on snap. I'm working on buying a new house so I can give my house to them but need some more time.  My lawyer says that would be stupid on your part and don't need to that because he is pretty certain that our application will be approved via the paperwork or via a judge. I dont care about about money. If irs wants 10k to for my wife to get a green card then here you go. I dont care about money at this point. 

 

And yes they give them a medical card as well. 

[Villanelle 4,121]

Ok, well if you are confident that your parents Snap/Medicaid benefits are being calculated correctly then theres no point in discussing that aspect further. 

 

So switching the focus back to immigration matters- you do realize there is no excuse to have had 4 attempts at AOS - especially not when using attnys! Im not sure where you are findings these attnys. Have you asked for your money back from any of them since they made mistakes causing it to be denied?? 

 

Yes, the new public charge guidelines are in fact new. No ones been adjudicated yet under them.  https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/08/14/2019-17142/inadmissibility-on-public-charge-grounds

 

You should read through the above when you have time. In order for someone to get a GC they review if you are inadmissible for public charge grounds. Both the 864 and the 944 are used for this. For the 944 (which is where your household using snap would be used against you) you may be able to do a bond if needed.  

 

But once again- amending your taxes will not make any difference with any affidavit or support or public charge determination stuff because as you said  I will "not count them as my dependents even if I do support them" .   Immigration requires you to list in your household size anyone you provide support for- regardless if you claim them on your taxes.  The only way to not have to include them is to not provide support to them. 

 

Also you should not take financial advice from an immigration attny. If your attny is not technically an immigration attny- well that can be why you are having so many problems with your filings! 

 

You need to find yourself a financial planner also called CFA certified financial advisor. Its a bit different from a CPA accountant. An accountant really only does tax stuff/bookeeping. A financial planner or advisor will look at your financial situation and help you plan for the best tax credits and investments.  They would be the one to tell you whether transferring property to your parents would help or hurt. Seems to me it would cost money to transfer property to your parents and then when they pass it will cost you money in inheritance tax type implications for you to get the property back. Youd have to balance that against what benefits youd all be getting by transferring it. 

 

[MoroccanLover40 2]

4 hours ago, Villanelle said:

Ok, well if you are confident that your parents Snap/Medicaid benefits are being calculated correctly then theres no point in discussing that aspect further. 

 

So switching the focus back to immigration matters- you do realize there is no excuse to have had 4 attempts at AOS - especially not when using attnys! Im not sure where you are findings these attnys. Have you asked for your money back from any of them since they made mistakes causing it to be denied?? 

 

Yes, the new public charge guidelines are in fact new. No ones been adjudicated yet under them.  https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/08/14/2019-17142/inadmissibility-on-public-charge-grounds

 

You should read through the above when you have time. In order for someone to get a GC they review if you are inadmissible for public charge grounds. Both the 864 and the 944 are used for this. For the 944 (which is where your household using snap would be used against you) you may be able to do a bond if needed.  

 

But once again- amending your taxes will not make any difference with any affidavit or support or public charge determination stuff because as you said  I will "not count them as my dependents even if I do support them" .   Immigration requires you to list in your household size anyone you provide support for- regardless if you claim them on your taxes.  The only way to not have to include them is to not provide support to them. 

 

Also you should not take financial advice from an immigration attny. If your attny is not technically an immigration attny- well that can be why you are having so many problems with your filings! 

 

You need to find yourself a financial planner also called CFA certified financial advisor. Its a bit different from a CPA accountant. An accountant really only does tax stuff/bookeeping. A financial planner or advisor will look at your financial situation and help you plan for the best tax credits and investments.  They would be the one to tell you whether transferring property to your parents would help or hurt. Seems to me it would cost money to transfer property to your parents and then when they pass it will cost you money in inheritance tax type implications for you to get the property back. Youd have to balance that against what benefits youd all be getting by transferring it. 

 

I found this on a website for the North Carolina Justice Center - 

 

https://www.ncjustice.org/publications/proposed-public-charge-ruleproposed-public-charge-rule-an-attack-on-immigrant-and-working-families/

 

BENEFITS USED BY YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS ARE NOT COUNTED AGAINST YOU

Only the benefits used by the green card applicant are considered in the public charge test, and most immigrants applying for a green card are not eligible for the benefits affected by the rule. The benefits used by family members are only counted if the family members are also applying for a green card, and it only affects their application. If your children or family members are citizens or already have green cards, they should continue to use the benefits for which they are eligible to keep themselves strong and healthy, without any effect on your immigration application. Also, many categories of immigrants do not have to go through the public charge test at all. See the back of this flyer for more information on which immigrants are affected by the rule.

 

If the above is true then I should have nothing to worry about but then again I haven't read the full details as it's too long and confusing for me to understand on this page https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/08/14/2019-17142/inadmissibility-on-public-charge-grounds 

 

 

I don't know I wish to GOD we get approved !!!!! It's dumb they approved her stay here but will tell her to go back after getting married to me. Doesn't add up 

[MoroccanLover40 2]

4 hours ago, Villanelle said:

Ok, well if you are confident that your parents Snap/Medicaid benefits are being calculated correctly then theres no point in discussing that aspect further. 

 

So switching the focus back to immigration matters- you do realize there is no excuse to have had 4 attempts at AOS - especially not when using attnys! Im not sure where you are findings these attnys. Have you asked for your money back from any of them since they made mistakes causing it to be denied?? 

 

Yes, the new public charge guidelines are in fact new. No ones been adjudicated yet under them.  https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/08/14/2019-17142/inadmissibility-on-public-charge-grounds

 

You should read through the above when you have time. In order for someone to get a GC they review if you are inadmissible for public charge grounds. Both the 864 and the 944 are used for this. For the 944 (which is where your household using snap would be used against you) you may be able to do a bond if needed.  

 

But once again- amending your taxes will not make any difference with any affidavit or support or public charge determination stuff because as you said  I will "not count them as my dependents even if I do support them" .   Immigration requires you to list in your household size anyone you provide support for- regardless if you claim them on your taxes.  The only way to not have to include them is to not provide support to them. 

 

Also you should not take financial advice from an immigration attny. If your attny is not technically an immigration attny- well that can be why you are having so many problems with your filings! 

 

You need to find yourself a financial planner also called CFA certified financial advisor. Its a bit different from a CPA accountant. An accountant really only does tax stuff/bookeeping. A financial planner or advisor will look at your financial situation and help you plan for the best tax credits and investments.  They would be the one to tell you whether transferring property to your parents would help or hurt. Seems to me it would cost money to transfer property to your parents and then when they pass it will cost you money in inheritance tax type implications for you to get the property back. Youd have to balance that against what benefits youd all be getting by transferring it. 

 

 

The lawyer representing me is a Immigration Lawyer and a good one too according to his reviews.

[Villanelle 4,121]

To anyone following this thread:

 

It bothered me that the OP was insistent that the parents were/are entitled to snap - plus the comment about repeated snap workers stating they were eligible- so I looked into it a bit more. This is not what I first thought (that it was either ignorance or intentionally fraud) but rather this is a loophole being exploited. For me that is much worse. At least someone committing intentional fraud knows they are doing wrong, but I have a hard time with someone exploiting a loophole and hiding behind the reason of 'well its allowed' to not take any moral responsibility.  

 

Anyone interested in the loophole is welcome to look into it the same way I did. Im not going to explain all the intricacies of it but basically if you are an adult child being supported by your parents you can not get snap. However if you are a parent being supported by an adult child you can qualify providing you claim your adult child does not provide you with food. So parents with 0 income are being provided with housing, clothing, utilities, transportation, everything really- but a line is drawn at giving them food. (eyeroll). Perhaps there was a time long ago  snap was needed (they havent worked in 30 years) and I fully support and encourage those who need help like snap or medicaid to use it. But IMO that time has passed. Accepting 200//month in snap and medical benefits has allowed a savings account to grow to 40 thousand dollars. Why pay for parents food when it can be provided for by taxpayers? Just because there is a loophole that allows you to do something doesnt mean its right or that you should.

 

The only other thing I will add is a huge part of immigration is showing good moral character. One should not exploit loopholes and then be surprised when its used against them. So while none of this violates TOS as fraudulent/illegal activity discussion (its all allowed under current snap/medicaid policy) I am just not comfortable providing advice on how to overcome it and will no longer be engaging in this thread. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Just Paul 4,595]

9 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

The only other thing I will add is a huge part of immigration is showing good moral character.

Agreed!   And hopefully a dose of karma too.

[MoroccanLover40 2]

4 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

To anyone following this thread:

 

It bothered me that the OP was insistent that the parents were/are entitled to snap - plus the comment about repeated snap workers stating they were eligible- so I looked into it a bit more. This is not what I first thought (that it was either ignorance or intentionally fraud) but rather this is a loophole being exploited. For me that is much worse. At least someone committing intentional fraud knows they are doing wrong, but I have a hard time with someone exploiting a loophole and hiding behind the reason of 'well its allowed' to not take any moral responsibility.  

 

Anyone interested in the loophole is welcome to look into it the same way I did. Im not going to explain all the intricacies of it but basically if you are an adult child being supported by your parents you can not get snap. However if you are a parent being supported by an adult child you can qualify providing you claim your adult child does not provide you with food. So parents with 0 income are being provided with housing, clothing, utilities, transportation, everything really- but a line is drawn at giving them food. (eyeroll). Perhaps there was a time long ago  snap was needed (they havent worked in 30 years) and I fully support and encourage those who need help like snap or medicaid to use it. But IMO that time has passed. Accepting 200//month in snap and medical benefits has allowed a savings account to grow to 40 thousand dollars. Why pay for parents food when it can be provided for by taxpayers? Just because there is a loophole that allows you to do something doesnt mean its right or that you should.

 

The only other thing I will add is a huge part of immigration is showing good moral character. One should not exploit loopholes and then be surprised when its used against them. So while none of this violates TOS as fraudulent/illegal activity discussion (its all allowed under current snap/medicaid policy) I am just not comfortable providing advice on how to overcome it and will no longer be engaging in this thread. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not a loophole if you are really providing them shelter and clothes etc.... except food. 

 

If any of the tax papers are getting screwed its me as I give  anywhere between 1600 or 2k  thousands every 3 months from my bonuses to people In need via taxes that's not including the 1500 they take from me monthly. Your argument doesn't make much sense as if anything im getting a small percentage of my money back in the form of snap which isn't even for me but for the parents. Not to mention the 7 or 8k I pay in real estate taxes so there is a HUGE deficit in the governments favor relating to me. 

 

I went to the professionals and have never done my own taxes and have left it to the business individuals. I simply provide them a check for their accounting services and they get it done which has hurt me unfortunately with my current situation. 

 

Its not a crime for my parents to use snap and is recommended if they have no other income. I dont want to hear only middle eastern people use it or anything because every year when I go to their office for my parents I see plenty enough of white people sitting there waiting for their money with 5 or 6 kids. It goes both ways however I pay my fair share of taxes. 

[MoroccanLover40 2]

4 minutes ago, Paul & Mary said:

Agreed!   And hopefully a dose of karma too.

Are you really the two in the 90 day fiance show ? I watch the show and follow almost everyone on their. 

[geowrian 22,337]

Ah, the "well I pay more than my share of taxes so they owe me/a relative anyway" explanation. 🤷‍♂️

 

[MoroccanLover40 2]

13 hours ago, MoroccanLover40 said:

I found this on a website for the North Carolina Justice Center - 

 

https://www.ncjustice.org/publications/proposed-public-charge-ruleproposed-public-charge-rule-an-attack-on-immigrant-and-working-families/

 

BENEFITS USED BY YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS ARE NOT COUNTED AGAINST YOU

Only the benefits used by the green card applicant are considered in the public charge test, and most immigrants applying for a green card are not eligible for the benefits affected by the rule. The benefits used by family members are only counted if the family members are also applying for a green card, and it only affects their application. If your children or family members are citizens or already have green cards, they should continue to use the benefits for which they are eligible to keep themselves strong and healthy, without any effect on your immigration application. Also, many categories of immigrants do not have to go through the public charge test at all. See the back of this flyer for more information on which immigrants are affected by the rule.

 

If the above is true then I should have nothing to worry about but then again I haven't read the full details as it's too long and confusing for me to understand on this page https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/08/14/2019-17142/inadmissibility-on-public-charge-grounds 

 

 

I don't know I wish to GOD we get approved !!!!! It's dumb they approved her stay here but will tell her to go back after getting married to me. Doesn't add up 

Does anyone have opinions on this ? Is it fake or true ? 

[MoroccanLover40 2]

11 minutes ago, geowrian said:

Ah, the "well I pay more than my share of taxes so they owe me/a relative anyway" explanation. 🤷‍♂️

 

Yep thats right. Don't take close to 20k in taxes from me every year and maybe I can fully support my parents. 

[Just Paul 4,595]

19 minutes ago, MoroccanLover40 said:

Are you really the two in the 90 day fiance show ?

Are you thinking of Paul and Karine?   

20 minutes ago, MoroccanLover40 said:

I watch the show and follow almost everyone on their. 

Definitely don't take any immigration or relationship advice from the shows.

[MoroccanLover40 2]

1 minute ago, Paul & Mary said:

Are you thinking of Paul and Karine?   

Definitely don't take any immigration or relationship advice from the shows.

David and Anne. Me and my wife wished we can be on the show as we have a very interesting relationship. 

 

Lol I just watch the show for the drama