Indiana Governor To Churches: Worship As I Say Or Be Shut Down

[TBoneTX 45,571]

Hmmmm?

Quote

Indiana Governor To Churches: Worship As I Say Or Be Shut Down

by Joy Pullman - April 10, 2020

 

It is a fundamental aspect of constitutional law and historic American practice that no government may tell citizens how to worship.  How one worships is a sacred duty that our laws and traditions have reserved entirely to the individual’s conscience, completely outside of the bounds of government interference.

Indiana Gov. Eric Holcomb, however, has decided [...]

 

Continues here: https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/10/indiana-governor-to-churches-worship-as-i-say-or-be-shut-down/  

 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

 

    We had a church closed down once where I used to live for a fire code violation. The order was in place until they remedied that. Let's stop pretending that churches are above the law. They are subject to the same societal laws as everyone else. We have a constitutional right to worship and express faith as we choose. We do not have a right to break the law while doing that.

 

   These guys who keep bringing up the constitution seem to have overlooked what it actually does allow states to do when an emergency is declared.  We have been ordered (not asked) to stay home. We have been told to minimize group gatherings. People need to find a way to observe their faith while abiding the law. If they do that, there won't be any problems. Religion will not get you prosecuted, but stupidity might. 

 

  Hopefully a few more weeks and we'll all be getting back to normal. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Steeleballz

[Dashinka 24,628]

I tend to agree, during the time of a public health emergency, the governors of the states have wide latitude.  Now if they prolong the emergency past what it should be, then there should be questions.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

2 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I tend to agree, during the time of a public health emergency, the governors of the states have wide latitude.  Now if they prolong the emergency past what it should be, then there should be questions.

 

  I really don't think they will. I can tell watching our governor this week that he is ready for this to end. I think we all are.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

Great leadership. Churches are not above the law and they don't have the right to just spread deadly viruses. Why so many churches are OK with their church goers dying is beyond me. They should be prosecuted. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

We're seeing states and local jurisdictions apply very targeted enforcement toward churches. If this was simply broad enforcement targeting groups of people then it would be fine, but in many of these, they allow exceptions to these rules by, say, liquor stores, to be open for people to gather at, or for liquor related services, deeming them "essential". Yet, they clamp down specifically on churches. Not merely to prevent them from normal service (understandable), but even from drive-in service on church property where people aren't inherently being unsafe. This is a flagrant violation of the First Amendment. Targeting people instead of behaviors is not okay, emergency or not.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

35 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

We're seeing states and local jurisdictions apply very targeted enforcement toward churches. If this was simply broad enforcement targeting groups of people then it would be fine, but in many of these, they allow exceptions to these rules by, say, liquor stores, to be open for people to gather at, or for liquor related services, deeming them "essential". Yet, they clamp down specifically on churches. Not merely to prevent them from normal service (understandable), but even from drive-in service on church property where people aren't inherently being unsafe. This is a flagrant violation of the First Amendment. Targeting people instead of behaviors is not okay, emergency or not.

Churches think they're special and they can just defy orders. Liquor stores are open for people to shop at quickly, not gather. You can argue with whether alcohol is essential but there are many alcoholics and alcohol withdrawal can be deadly. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

13 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Churches think they're special and they can just defy orders. Liquor stores are open for people to shop at quickly, not gather. You can argue with whether alcohol is essential but there are many alcoholics and alcohol withdrawal can be deadly. 

I'm sure there are some who think they are exceptions to the rules, however, we're seeing enforcement targeting churches having drive-by service in their lots, not "gathering". This is flagrantly unconstitutional. Videos of cops telling people their rights are suspended. Unless of course they go buy some booze at the liquor store.

 

Even though I have personal animus toward religion and the irrationality of it, it is nonetheless protected, and the government has no business setting religion aside targeting them categorically rather than behaviors. They'll deservedly be sued and lose. Emergency declarations are valid to protect the populace from chaos, but they aren't blank checks to do whatever the government wants whenever they want, and they'll soon find that out.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Dashinka 24,628]

1 hour ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  I really don't think they will. I can tell watching our governor this week that he is ready for this to end. I think we all are.

I hope you are right, but I don’t get that same feeling from our governor.  Just yesterday she instituted even greater restrictions not allowing people to go to someone else’s house unless it was for humanitarian reasons.  A friend was pulled over and given a fine for being too far away from their home while shopping.  I am surprised Whitmer didn’t say one person per residence, I suppose that is next as she doesn’t think the peak will hit MI until June, and she is not discussing anything related to easing her orders.

1 hour ago, Orangesapples said:

Great leadership. Churches are not above the law and they don't have the right to just spread deadly viruses. Why so many churches are OK with their church goers dying is beyond me. They should be prosecuted. 

So we should disband churches altogether right?  I mean there is always a deadly virus circulating.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Dashinka

[Dashinka 24,628]

1 hour ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

We're seeing states and local jurisdictions apply very targeted enforcement toward churches. If this was simply broad enforcement targeting groups of people then it would be fine, but in many of these, they allow exceptions to these rules by, say, liquor stores, to be open for people to gather at, or for liquor related services, deeming them "essential". Yet, they clamp down specifically on churches. Not merely to prevent them from normal service (understandable), but even from drive-in service on church property where people aren't inherently being unsafe. This is a flagrant violation of the First Amendment. Targeting people instead of behaviors is not okay, emergency or not.

You mentioned drive up, I agree with you, what is wrong with that.  I also don’t understand why drive thru car washes are closed.

48 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Churches think they're special and they can just defy orders. Liquor stores are open for people to shop at quickly, not gather. You can argue with whether alcohol is essential but there are many alcoholics and alcohol withdrawal can be deadly. 

Have you ever seen the lines gathered at the lottery machines in liquor and party stores?

[Steeleballz 7,550]

2 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I don’t get that same feeling from our governor.  Just yesterday she instituted even greater restrictions not allowing people to go to someone else’s house unless it was for humanitarian reasons.  A friend was pulled over and given a fine for being too far away from their home while shopping.  I am surprised Whitmer didn’t say one person per residence, I suppose that is next as she doesn’t think the peak will hit MI until June, and she is not discussing anything related to easing her orders.

 

  I'm not sure about Michigan. Many models say we have peaked here already, so they are looking at ways of easing restrictions by the end of April. They are talking about getting antibody testing done and allowing people who have had it and recovered to go back to work first. 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

6 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

 

So we should disband churches altogether right?  I mean there is always a deadly virus circulating.

There isn't a pandemic all the time. 

 

No need to disband churches, just have them comply with the safety measures we all need. Have them congregate online. I'm also bummed I can't go practice my hobby in person but no special exceptions for me. 

[Dashinka 24,628]

3 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  I'm not sure about Michigan. Many models say we have peaked here already, so they are looking at ways of easing restrictions by the end of April. They are talking about getting antibody testing done and allowing people who have had it and recovered to go back to work first. 

I tend to follow the UW model since it relates to medical resources, and it is showing MI is past its peak.  We do need antibody testing, but I get the feeling from our governor that unless we can test every resident in MI, she will not relent (she did not explicitly say that, it is just the feeling I get).  Part of her current restrictions is that if you have a second residence up North, you cannot go there if you are a MI resident, but it is ok for people from OH, IN, and IL that have second homes or cottages In MI to do go there.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

5 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

There isn't a pandemic all the time. 

 

No need to disband churches, just have them comply with the safety measures we all need. Have them congregate online. I'm also bummed I can't go practice my hobby in person but no special exceptions for me. 

Slight difference between hobby and church that's easily recognizable in the constitution. 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

9 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

Slight difference between hobby and church that's easily recognizable in the constitution. 

I think it's the same