Covid-19 had us all fooled, but now we might have finally found its secret.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Very interesting read about how the virus does it's nasty work of killing people.

 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

[yuna628 9,714]

Whelp, it was going so well but then..

 

Quote

Whatever, I don’t know the full breadth and scope because I’m not a physician.

He uses a lot of medical terms, some he's incorrect about. He tosses out a lot of things but then says he doesn't know because he's not a physician. I don't know what he is, but... I hope he rethinks some things after discussing it with doctors dealing with this every day.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Whelp, it was going so well but then..

 

He uses a lot of medical terms, some he's incorrect about. He tosses out a lot of things but then says he doesn't know because he's not a physician. I don't know what he is, but... I hope he rethinks some things after discussing it with doctors dealing with this every day.

But up until you read that part, it was pretty logical and well written, wasn't it?

[sl1pstream 551]

Or you can just watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtN-goy9VOY

[yuna628 9,714]

3 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

But up until you read that part, it was pretty logical and well written, wasn't it?

Not entirely. I have seen another doctor argue the point that vents should be used as a measure of last resort, but to a degree even he wasn't sure that his argument would hold up practically in the field. These people are critical and it happens very very fast, with limited resources there's only so much that can be done. Every study I have seen with this drug has no effect on a patient in a critical state. Even studies I've seen using anti-virals it must be done before the patient is critical. Unfortunately, patients are not showing up to the hospital until they are in that critical state... and that's where to a degree we need to maybe rethink some things. We first told people ''stay home it'll be mild" but I don't think for many this is a mild affliction. They are suffering greatly at home with no treatment to help their oxygen, until they stagger to the hospital to either be turned away or die there. I'm also an advocate for vitamin use (as you know it's an important building block for immune systems and the elderly will be depleted of several). But the drug can also depress the immune system, and many patients in critical state with pre-existing conditions already have faulty immune systems and heart issues that you really shouldn't be giving this drug to. My dad certainly couldn't take this drug and neither could I. People are eager with 'ideas' to try and help, but this person is not a doctor, so his opinion doesn't hold much weight to me.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Here's some more on the matter:

 

https://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/04/05/wuhan-flu-21/

 

 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

26 minutes ago, sl1pstream said:

Or you can just watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtN-goy9VOY

That video illustrates what is currently & recently thought to be happening in our bodies.  The OP offers an alternative theory that is very logical and needs to be looked at more closely if we are to overcome this disease anytime soon.

[OriZ 3,157]

I know they've had limited success in some places using Ecmo machines while giving the body's heart and lungs time to go back to proper operation. But there's even fewer ecmo machines than ventilators

Edited April 9, 2020 by OriZ

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

4 minutes ago, OriZ said:

I know they've had limited success in some places using Ecmo machines while giving the body's heart and lungs time to go back to proper operation. But there's even fewer ecmo machines than ventilators

Yes, and if you read the OP, you'll see that there is at least some likelihood that the ventilators and intubations are actually making recoveries worse rather than better.  So much yet to learn...

[Dashinka 24,798]

Still like the idea of open air wards in parks.

1 hour ago, yuna628 said:

Not entirely. I have seen another doctor argue the point that vents should be used as a measure of last resort, but to a degree even he wasn't sure that his argument would hold up practically in the field. These people are critical and it happens very very fast, with limited resources there's only so much that can be done. Every study I have seen with this drug has no effect on a patient in a critical state. Even studies I've seen using anti-virals it must be done before the patient is critical. Unfortunately, patients are not showing up to the hospital until they are in that critical state... and that's where to a degree we need to maybe rethink some things. We first told people ''stay home it'll be mild" but I don't think for many this is a mild affliction. They are suffering greatly at home with no treatment to help their oxygen, until they stagger to the hospital to either be turned away or die there. I'm also an advocate for vitamin use (as you know it's an important building block for immune systems and the elderly will be depleted of several). But the drug can also depress the immune system, and many patients in critical state with pre-existing conditions already have faulty immune systems and heart issues that you really shouldn't be giving this drug to. My dad certainly couldn't take this drug and neither could I. People are eager with 'ideas' to try and help, but this person is not a doctor, so his opinion doesn't hold much weight to me.

So how do you explain the lung damage you mentioned in other threads?

[Steeleballz 7,550]

59 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

That video illustrates what is currently & recently thought to be happening in our bodies.  The OP offers an alternative theory that is very logical and needs to be looked at more closely if we are to overcome this disease anytime soon.

 

  Hydroxychloriquine actually causes toxic non-heme iron to build up inside malarial parasites until it kills them. What the OP is suggesting is the opposite effect, that it prevents non-heme iron from forming. I'm curious where that comes from. I see a lot of references to research online, but damned if there are any links to the actual research so we could actually see what it is they are hypothesizing.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

11 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Yes, and if you read the OP, you'll see that there is at least some likelihood that the ventilators and intubations are actually making recoveries worse rather than better.  So much yet to learn...

 

   This is something they are starting to realize. The video is better than the article IMO . The article gets too many things wrong. In a nutshell though, ARDS secondary to Covid-19 is atypical. It doesn't present the same as acute respiratory distress syndrome in other settings, and they are learning it needs to be managed differently. Mechanical ventilation and intubation are extremely invasive, and they need to find something that can minimize that for Covid-19. I don't think they have reached a consensus on what that is yet though.

 

  

[yuna628 9,714]

VoR and Steeleballz: here's some interesting discussions on the twitterverse of MDs regarding PEEP, ARDS, if we should be using vents and when we should be using them. Pretty technical stuff. Take care to click through and read the threads, very lengthy discussions.

 

 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

 

   This is something they are starting to realize. The video is better than the article IMO . The article gets too many things wrong. In a nutshell though, ARDS secondary to Covid-19 is atypical. It doesn't present the same as acute respiratory distress syndrome in other settings, and they are learning it needs to be managed differently. Mechanical ventilation and intubation are extremely invasive, and they need to find something that can minimize that for Covid-19. I don't think they have reached a consensus on what that is yet though.

I would think that a CPAP, or perhaps even a BIPAP,  could assist with breathing without the invasion.  How does 20cm H2O of a CPAP compare to a ventilator for pressure?

[Steeleballz 7,550]

36 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

I would think that a CPAP, or perhaps even a BIPAP,  could assist with breathing without the invasion.  How does 20cm H2O of a CPAP compare to a ventilator for pressure?

 

   CPAP is for when you are breathing but not getting enough oxygen. Ventilators are traditionally used when you are not capeable of breathing on your own.

 

  I think the issue is lung damage is already a known problem with ventilators. Usually it's the lesser of two risks, the other risk being fatal hypoxia. It's not an area I'm overly familiar with, but it looks like they need to determine now if the potential damage from the ventilator is more of a risk than the hypoxia itself in Covid-19. It seems like it may be if they start people on ventilators too early. At some point there is no other option than ventilation. Not right now anyway. They are still learning but right now, there may be some people where if it gets to a certain point, they just won't be able to do anything.