CoVID-19 ~ Man Made in Wuhan, China

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  So would your assertion be that this random guy on the internet has been able to prove something that national virology laboratories cannot, or are you asserting that there is a cover up going on? Those are the only two options, and the choice that the laboratories wouldn't be able to detect this is very unlikely.

It is well-known that China has been covering this up from the get go.  If they are willing to hide the number of cases, severity, etc, why not the source?

[90DayFinancier 910]

So which is it? Is Covid-19 just a mild flu that is generating undue hysteria in an attempt to make political hay or is it a weaponized lab concocted virus that communist party members immunized themselves from in an attempt to dominate the world?

 

 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

1 minute ago, Voice of Reason said:

Call me a conspiracy nut, but the idea that a bunch of scientists were asked to agree on this topic, in order to prevent public panic or condemnation of a biological weapon is not far-fetched.  While animals certainly have been the root hosts for things over the years, the Chinese have been eating bats for centuries.  Why Covid-19 now? I've read bats/pangoliins/snakes have been the source.  Having been in the military, and having seen experimental drugs being used on soldiers, and some of the travesties that governments will allow in the spirit of "winning", I wouldn't be at all surprised that a group of scientists could be called upon to create such a document blaming it on bats.  Or rats.  Or whatever.  There is no monetary reason why a theory cannot become reality. 

 

 

   The last 2 Coronavirus strains endemic in humans also likely came from bats. They were discovered while researchers were looking at the SARS coronavirus in the early 2000's. They are suspected to have been circulating in humans since the mid 20th century. The previous 2 Coronavirus strains also came from animals, likely in antiquity. The list of viruses that have jumped from humans to animals throughout history is as long as it is incomplete. Some are suspected to be associated with the great plagues know in history and others they don't even know. The majority cause minor symptoms and have never been sequenced or detected by a laboratory test.

 

  The bottom line is, nobody is really looking for these. Most are found incidentally when looking for something else, and occasionally a new virulent pathogen like COVID-19 emerges that requires a rapid response. They are almost always traced back to the animal host from which they originated. What is certain is that there are many more yet unknown Coronavirus and other species out there than there are known, and that many will be a lot worse than this one.

[Boiler 45,958]

15 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  Not to me it doesn't. This article looks to me how a typical article saying AR15's kill more people would look to you. Rubbish without any basis in fact or context and no supporting data to prove the claim.

This is nothing new, Biologic warfare in one form or other goes back to the ancients.

 

Now was this deliberate, I doubt it, but things go wrong.

 

Was this a finished product, I assume not by it very nature, did it come out of research, yes seems reasonable.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

 

   The last 2 Coronavirus strains endemic in humans also likely came from bats. They were discovered while researchers were looking at the SARS coronavirus in the early 2000's. They are suspected to have been circulating in humans since the mid 20th century. The previous 2 Coronavirus strains also came from animals, likely in antiquity. The list of viruses that have jumped from humans to animals throughout history is as long as it is incomplete. Some are suspected to be associated with the great plagues know in history and others they don't even know. The majority cause minor symptoms and have never been sequenced or detected by a laboratory test.

 

  The bottom line is, nobody is really looking for these. Most are found incidentally when looking for something else, and occasionally a new virulent pathogen like COVID-19 emerges that requires a rapid response. They are almost always traced back to the animal host from which they originated. What is certain is that there are many more yet unknown Coronavirus and other species out there than there are known, and that many will be a lot worse than this one.

I gotcha, nature isn't always friendly.  But neither is our fellow man.  And mistakes happen.  Perhaps we'll know in a few years, or perhaps we won't.  As long as we survive to argue about the source, I am happy!  

[Steeleballz 7,550]

16 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

It is well-known that China has been covering this up from the get go.  If they are willing to hide the number of cases, severity, etc, why not the source?

 

  It could have came from outer space too, but I would rather go with most likely scenario first and consider outliers after the other causes have been eliminated. There is nothing to show that this virus was engineered or that it didn't originate from an animal host. Unless that changes, the premise of this thread is really just nonsense. It illustrates more than anything that budget cuts to education does have consequences.

[yuna628 9,700]

27 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Call me a conspiracy nut, but the idea that a bunch of scientists were asked to agree on this topic, in order to prevent public panic or condemnation of a biological weapon is not far-fetched.  While animals certainly have been the root hosts for things over the years, the Chinese have been eating bats for centuries.  Why Covid-19 now? I've read bats/pangoliins/snakes have been the source.  Having been in the military, and having seen experimental drugs being used on soldiers, and some of the travesties that governments will allow in the spirit of "winning", I wouldn't be at all surprised that a group of scientists could be called upon to create such a document blaming it on bats.  Or rats.  Or whatever.  There is no monetary reason why a theory cannot become reality. 

Why now? The inevitability of time and eventuality of fate. Things take time to happen, but eventually they will happen as they have with many plagues throughout the centuries. Conditions have to be favorable, the smart virus has evolved enough to make the leap, and the hosts are available in mass supply. I'm not sure if there has been particular studies of the virus within bats or how it may or may not affect them, but bats as a species are going through their own crisis with disease just like bees. Bats are wonderful creatures, but are known carriers for hosts of diseases and humans are becoming more vulnerable. It's not surprising the time is now, just as rats were way back when. I remember seeing some study that survivors of the black death passed on their more fitter genes down the generations and made a significant mark on our species' genome. Biologically it is a weird evolutionary process of life and death. We defeat the illness or it defeats us. Survivors may genetically be stronger. We don't know what our immunity will be to this virus.

 

As I've said before sometimes the most simple answer ends up being the right one, but conspiracies make things really wild for a while. Could it happen? I suppose. But I trust those scientists and doctors that are putting their lives on the line... much like they did during Chernobyl while the Russians were busy blaming everything and everyone but themselves. Will an accident happen someday? Probably, it's going to likely be one of those inevitability of time things. But I don't think this is likely the case right now. Chinese may have been eating bats for centuries, but eventually that's going to catch up. Humans as a species do a lot of stupid things they think is okay and then it all starts catching up with them.

 

Here is one study about bats and viruses. What they discover is that bats have an interesting ability to amount an aggressive immune response to all the nasty bugs they may carry. This helps the viruses learn, adapt, and evolve to greater virulence because the bat is a fantastic sort of petri dish to learn from. Bat cells release something called interferon which actually help the virus reproduce faster but protects the bat in the process (this may be why heavy HIV drugs have shown some promise). When they make the jump to another animal, or in this case a human the consequences are deadly. In a study about why kids aren't getting so sick vs why adults are suffering severe illness, they discovered it wasn't necessarily the virus doing the killing but the overactive response of our immune systems once the virus gets deep into the lungs. We can't mount the proper response, our immune system goes crazy, we then can't shut off the response... literally killing ourselves. Our bodies attack itself and overwhelm, rather than how the smart way a bat responds. WNS is one disease that a bat can't seem to fight off but this is not a virus, rather a fungus. There are probably hundreds of diseases that don't seem to be transmitted from human to animal and vice versa, but we are learning this is changing all the time. We once thought we couldn't give dogs diseases, but now they know we can.

 

 

[Boiler 45,958]

My Pharmacist contact is back in town, so I no doubt will become fully informed.

 

My first thought is that life can be pretty brutal and modern society has allowed the weak who would have perished to survive as well as introducing new risk factors, look how many have allergies.

 

On the other hand numbers have increased, but then transportation has so there is no real way of containing, so from an Actuarial perspective this does not seem a major issue, of course it is bad for the individual but so is say Polio.

 

My recollection is that there is a balance, the weak nasties transmit quicker and more effectively, the ones that will kill you have issues in that killing the host does not allow effective transmission.  This one does not seem to have a high fatality rate and mainly kills the weak. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Boiler

[Steeleballz 7,550]

3 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Why now? The inevitability of time and eventuality of fate. Things take time to happen, but eventually they will happen as they have with many plagues throughout the centuries. Conditions have to be favorable, the smart virus has evolved enough to make the leap, and the hosts are available in mass supply. I'm not sure if there has been particular studies of the virus within bats or how it may or may not affect them, but bats as a species are going through their own crisis with disease just like bees. Bats are wonderful creatures, but are known carriers for hosts of diseases and humans are becoming more vulnerable. It's not surprising the time is now, just as rats were way back when. I remember seeing some study that survivors of the black death passed on their more fitter genes down the generations and made a significant mark on our species' genome. Biologically it is a weird evolutionary process of life and death. We defeat the illness or it defeats us. Survivors may genetically be stronger. We don't know what our immunity will be to this virus.

 

As I've said before sometimes the most simple answer ends up being the right one, but conspiracies make things really wild for a while. Could it happen? I suppose. But I trust those scientists and doctors that are putting their lives on the line... much like they did during Chernobyl while the Russians were busy blaming everything and everyone but themselves. Will an accident happen someday? Probably, it's going to likely be one of those inevitability of time things. But I don't think this is likely the case right now. Chinese may have been eating bats for centuries, but eventually that's going to catch up. Humans as a species do a lot of stupid things they think is okay and then it all starts catching up with them.

 

Here is one study about bats and viruses. What they discover is that bats have an interesting ability to amount an aggressive immune response to all the nasty bugs they may carry. This helps the viruses learn, adapt, and evolve to greater virulence because the bat is a fantastic sort of petri dish to learn from. Bat cells release something called interferon which actually help the virus reproduce faster but protects the bat in the process (this may be why heavy HIV drugs have shown some promise). When they make the jump to another animal, or in this case a human the consequences are deadly. In a study about why kids aren't getting so sick vs why adults are suffering severe illness, they discovered it wasn't necessarily the virus doing the killing but the overactive response of our immune systems once the virus gets deep into the lungs. We can't mount the proper response, our immune system goes crazy, we then can't shut off the response... literally killing ourselves. Our bodies attack itself and overwhelm, rather than how the smart way a bat responds. WNS is one disease that a bat can't seem to fight off but this is not a virus, rather a fungus. There are probably hundreds of diseases that don't seem to be transmitted from human to animal and vice versa, but we are learning this is changing all the time. We once thought we couldn't give dogs diseases, but now they know we can.

 

 

 

   One thing about bats (and rodents) is that because they are mammals, we have many similarities to them, and sometimes it's easier for viruses to make the jump to humans and circulate. As mammals go though, they are also very divergent from humans and so some of the viruses that they carry can have very different physiological responses in humans.

 

  When you compare it to something like bird flu, the symptoms and pathogenesis are much more severe, but fortunately much harder to catch and transmit because our cells are so different from birds. It takes sustained exposure with birds ATM for a human to contract avian flu, and then it would likely take a series of mutations to make it easier to spread in humans for it to circulate easily. Which is why we haven't seen sustained outbreaks, but also why it will be the nightmare scenario if/when it does happen. 

 

   I think with dogs and cats, it is probably the case that most of the viruses we could easily catch and transmit to them was probably already done in ancient times. Even if we see cases of Coronavirus transmitted to dogs and cats from humans now, we are all just intermediary hosts at this time. 

   

[Dashinka 24,743]

3 hours ago, yuna628 said:

Why now? The inevitability of time and eventuality of fate. Things take time to happen, but eventually they will happen as they have with many plagues throughout the centuries. Conditions have to be favorable, the smart virus has evolved enough to make the leap, and the hosts are available in mass supply. I'm not sure if there has been particular studies of the virus within bats or how it may or may not affect them, but bats as a species are going through their own crisis with disease just like bees. Bats are wonderful creatures, but are known carriers for hosts of diseases and humans are becoming more vulnerable. It's not surprising the time is now, just as rats were way back when. I remember seeing some study that survivors of the black death passed on their more fitter genes down the generations and made a significant mark on our species' genome. Biologically it is a weird evolutionary process of life and death. We defeat the illness or it defeats us. Survivors may genetically be stronger. We don't know what our immunity will be to this virus.

 

As I've said before sometimes the most simple answer ends up being the right one, but conspiracies make things really wild for a while. Could it happen? I suppose. But I trust those scientists and doctors that are putting their lives on the line... much like they did during Chernobyl while the Russians were busy blaming everything and everyone but themselves. Will an accident happen someday? Probably, it's going to likely be one of those inevitability of time things. But I don't think this is likely the case right now. Chinese may have been eating bats for centuries, but eventually that's going to catch up. Humans as a species do a lot of stupid things they think is okay and then it all starts catching up with them.

 

Here is one study about bats and viruses. What they discover is that bats have an interesting ability to amount an aggressive immune response to all the nasty bugs they may carry. This helps the viruses learn, adapt, and evolve to greater virulence because the bat is a fantastic sort of petri dish to learn from. Bat cells release something called interferon which actually help the virus reproduce faster but protects the bat in the process (this may be why heavy HIV drugs have shown some promise). When they make the jump to another animal, or in this case a human the consequences are deadly. In a study about why kids aren't getting so sick vs why adults are suffering severe illness, they discovered it wasn't necessarily the virus doing the killing but the overactive response of our immune systems once the virus gets deep into the lungs. We can't mount the proper response, our immune system goes crazy, we then can't shut off the response... literally killing ourselves. Our bodies attack itself and overwhelm, rather than how the smart way a bat responds. WNS is one disease that a bat can't seem to fight off but this is not a virus, rather a fungus. There are probably hundreds of diseases that don't seem to be transmitted from human to animal and vice versa, but we are learning this is changing all the time. We once thought we couldn't give dogs diseases, but now they know we can.

 

 

What have you heard about Hong Kong protest lately?  I know, conspiracy theories, but when I was in a China in mid December, the Hong Kong protests were front and center and duly censored on the news channels in China, now they have completely disappeared.

[90DayFinancier 910]

5 hours ago, yuna628 said:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext  

 

You can find an agreeing statement from scientists here with citations. They are very certain where it came from.

 

More also here. https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/theory-that-coronavirus-escaped-from-a-lab-lacks-evidence-67229

 

It is well, also sort of a shame that this came from bats, but likely because of very unhealthy practices with humans. Bats kind of get such a terrible rap already, and they are a very important species for survival. But the populations are declining and they are also getting sick.

That lancet link was great!  

[90DayFinancier 910]

The conspiracy theories about the virus are spreading faster than the virus itself. 

Trafficking in them simply raises anxiety and clogs the flow of reliable information to people who need reliable information to make good choices, protect the ones they love and relax when they don't need to panic.

 

Why people will post dreck from fringe sites and yet poopoo information coming from scientists and public health professionals, I don't know. 

 

As Niel deGrasse Tyson pointed out on this topic yesterday:

"We are in the middle of a great experiment, will people listen to scientists?"

 

[Boiler 45,958]

I was just going on the basis of logic, my views have not changed, if anything I am sort of surprised about the lack of such developments, seemed an obvious and easy route for those with evil intent.

 

Much simpler that say deploying a Nuke.

 

Anyway to some extent the causation is not material to addressing the issue. Still of the view that looking at the big picture and to sort of quote Napoleon this is more a PR issue.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

I don't know what to make of the origination of this coronavirus. I don't trust China either, I don't think its too much a reach, the viewpoint that the virus was man-made, but as far as how it was spread, I'm not entirely sure this was deliberate, doing this is hurt China badly as countries have started looking at restructuring (diversifying) how they source pharma products, including bringing production back. Even though it hurt other countries, this hurts China far worse, it's mind boggling that they'd do this to themselves on purpose, so it's not a reach I'm ready to make yet, despite my agreement to the idea that China is adversarial and that the US needs to stop relying on this country for trade on vital products.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Boiler 45,958]

I seriously doubt it was deliberate.