Socialism's Inequalities

[Dashinka 24,744]

4 hours ago, 90DayFinancier said:

And the knock against Bernie is that he is labeled a Socialist, and calls himself a socialist, for policies to that align to the Nordic countries.

I think you are ignoring Bernie’s promotion of the Cuba model, and that of the former USSR and Venezuela. If you read the DSA mantra, they want to get rid of private ownership of corporations, etc.  of course they say they do not favor centralized planning, but with collective ownership of corporations, someone, read as “the government” will have to maintain some level of oversight.  Bernie is not a Social Democrat, he is a tried and true socialist.

[90DayFinancier 910]

3 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

I believe my previous post about that flew right over his head.  I wonder if he will grasp yours?

Maybe my answer flew over your head.  The Nordic countries have a different culture that promotes redistribution of wealth.  The high taxes on the very wealthy and moderately high taxes on the middle class are generally acceptable as a way to promote a safety net.

 

Middle class households pay 40-60% taxes including local.

 

The money funds a large public sector, public pensions and social welfare programs.  Because exports are important, so are trade agreements, which displaces workers.  The retraining and support if those workers is built into the public safety net.  All if these programs are expensive.

 

Unlike England and America where low taxes are a virtue, that is not the common view in most of Scandinavia.

 

Additionally, minimum wage laws are not needed, strong unions and support for collective bargaining keep wages sustainable.

 

 

 

 

[90DayFinancier 910]

2 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I think you are ignoring Bernie’s promotion of the Cuba model, and that of the former USSR and Venezuela. If you read the DSA mantra, they want to get rid of private ownership of corporations, etc.  of course they say they do not favor centralized planning, but with collective ownership of corporations, someone, read as “the government” will have to maintain some level of oversight.  Bernie is not a Social Democrat, he is a tried and true socialist.

I have to admit, I don't know all of Bernie's history and I don't know everything he currently has in his policy statements. I do think his lack of leadership in Venezuela and Cuban policies is going to hurt him with older voters. Labelling all Democrats socialist is just not accurate. Elizabeth Warren has done as much to preserve private banks as anyone on that stage, but she promoted regulations, many of which the powerful interests ingnored or got around.

 

I do know Bernie favors a federal electrical grid and ownership.  I don't think that is too radical. It is a heavily regulated industry with very low returns to investors. You could make an argument that innovation is suppressed under the current patchwork of public/private ownership that slowed smart grid development. This is not a radical proposal.

 

I am not debating whether the man is left if center policy wise, I just think declaring the Nordic countries as not socialism or even the US for that matter because they do not have centrally planned economies is an excessively narrow definition of the term. 

 

In Marxism, socialism is a transitional state to complete ownership by "the people"

 

In market socialism people are just looking for a fair deal inside the marketplace. There is a difference.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by 90DayFinancier

[90DayFinancier 910]

5 hours ago, Boiler said:

As the Nordic countries are not socialist countries the whole issue is somewhat misleading, is IKEA State owned?

 

 

If your definition of socialism is that all industry is collectively owned, that is too restrictive in my opinion.

 

 

5 hours ago, Boiler said:

 

Which Nordic Country has M4All? My understanding is that they all have a mixed Healthcare system.

 

I don't know much about M4All.

In Sweden,

Medicine is funded from public taxes, private clinics are almost unheard of. Medicine is about 12,% of gdp. Local governments get a say in how their healthcare is run as 75% of the funding is local income tax. The federal government makes every effort to drive out private profits from the system.

 

Only visitors need private insurance.  I think most EU countries have an agreement. 

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, 90DayFinancier said:

Maybe my answer flew over your head.  The Nordic countries have a different culture that promotes redistribution of wealth.  The high taxes on the very wealthy and moderately high taxes on the middle class are generally acceptable as a way to promote a safety net.

 

Middle class households pay 40-60% taxes including local.

 

The money funds a large public sector, public pensions and social welfare programs.  Because exports are important, so are trade agreements, which displaces workers.  The retraining and support if those workers is built into the public safety net.  All if these programs are expensive.

 

Unlike England and America where low taxes are a virtue, that is not the common view in most of Scandinavia.

 

Additionally, minimum wage laws are not needed, strong unions and support for collective bargaining keep wages sustainable.

You and Bernie are the only two people I have read who think the Nordic states are socialist.  They do have more of a social safety net than the US, but that in and of itself does not make them socialist.  

And yes, those TAXES are why those who can leave, do.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#2f5e7be674ad

Edited March 2, 2020 by Voice of Reason

[Boiler 45,965]

England has not had a tax system since 1536 btw. Rather appropriate as today is St Davids Day.

 

When I started work the top tax rate was 98%, and just in case you were wondering no it did not effect me.

 

So taxes vary and doing a direct comparison is difficult, very difficult. I think it is fair to say in the round that Nordic countries have a higher tax rate than the UK but not massively so. UK - US is also different, I know the general comment for people relocating to the US is that on a shall we say normal salary assume a similar sort of take.

 

Even with these high tax rates I know there are massive unfunded liabilities, and at some point there will have to be a reckoning but as far as I know that applies to all Western countries.

 

 

[Boiler 45,965]

5 hours ago, 90DayFinancier said:

 

 

If your definition of socialism is that all industry is collectively owned, that is too restrictive in my opinion.

 

 

I don't know much about M4All.

In Sweden,

Medicine is funded from public taxes, private clinics are almost unheard of. Medicine is about 12,% of gdp. Local governments get a say in how their healthcare is run as 75% of the funding is local income tax. The federal government makes every effort to drive out private profits from the system.

 

Only visitors need private insurance.  I think most EU countries have an agreement. 

 

My definition of Socialism is the normal definition of Socialism.

 

I assume by Nordic countries you mean Denmark Sweden Norway and Finland, they all have different systems, different issues, there is no common standard. I do know a bit about the Dutch system as I had friends who moved there and that is different again.

 

There is no perfect system, do not see how there can be, we all can think of a more logical system I am sure and some may agree with my thoughts, I am sure many will not.

 

There seems to be an inevitability that all systems get for want of a better world clogged up. I really do not like the US system, now it seems to be getting worse faster but to suggest other systems do not have issues is fallacious.

 

Sort of reminds me of the large companies that have been around too long and can not adapt, Sears, Macy's etc, they collect too much baggage.

[90DayFinancier 910]

14 hours ago, Boiler said:

My definition of Socialism is the normal definition of Socialism.

 

I assume by Nordic countries you mean Denmark Sweden Norway and Finland, they all have different systems, different issues, there is no common standard. I do know a bit about the Dutch system as I had friends who moved there and that is different again.

 

There is no perfect system, do not see how there can be, we all can think of a more logical system I am sure and some may agree with my thoughts, I am sure many will not.

 

There seems to be an inevitability that all systems get for want of a better world clogged up. I really do not like the US system, now it seems to be getting worse faster but to suggest other systems do not have issues is fallacious.

 

Sort of reminds me of the large companies that have been around too long and can not adapt, Sears, Macy's etc, they collect too much baggage.

The "Nordic model" is well understood to be a thing with a number of progressive economists singing it's praises and a number of free market purists like the Austrian  school denying that it is a success.  https://mises.org/library/sweden-myth

 

Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism are terms that are used to define this model. It certainly doesn't fit either a Marxists view of Socialism or a Free marketier's view of a free economy. 

 

I see you are from Wales. After WW2 the labour party declared that Capitalism was dead in Britain and that NHS was proof positive. Yet London continues to be a vibrant market economy. 

 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

14 hours ago, Boiler said:

My definition of Socialism is the normal definition of Socialism.

 

I assume by Nordic countries you mean Denmark Sweden Norway and Finland, they all have different systems, different issues, there is no common standard. I do know a bit about the Dutch system as I had friends who moved there and that is different again.

 

There is no perfect system, do not see how there can be, we all can think of a more logical system I am sure and some may agree with my thoughts, I am sure many will not.

 

There seems to be an inevitability that all systems get for want of a better world clogged up. I really do not like the US system, now it seems to be getting worse faster but to suggest other systems do not have issues is fallacious.

 

Sort of reminds me of the large companies that have been around too long and can not adapt, Sears, Macy's etc, they collect too much baggage.

It's funny because what's largely changed in the US in the last century is, more government. More government, more government manipulation of the economy, more government deciding winners and losers, more inequality. The idea of benevolent government mandating equality is repeatedly demonstrated false. More government never produces equality, it simply mandates inequality the government, and those in power, prefer.

[Boiler 45,965]

Actually before my time but but my Grandparents told me all about it. And yes I realise the importance of the NHS at the time, how it was supposed to operate and am aware that things have in many ways changed.

 

The phrase most commonly used was a Mixed Economy, and quite how well things are mixed varies, there are many areas where the UK certainly was let us say more socialised than the Nordic countries are now, did Sweden ever nationalise its Motor Industry?

[90DayFinancier 910]

21 minutes ago, Boiler said:

Actually before my time but but my Grandparents told me all about it. And yes I realise the importance of the NHS at the time, how it was supposed to operate and am aware that things have in many ways changed.

 

The phrase most commonly used was a Mixed Economy, and quite how well things are mixed varies, there are many areas where the UK certainly was let us say more socialised than the Nordic countries are now, did Sweden ever nationalise its Motor Industry?

Do you mean did the government stop the sale of Volvo and SAAB to America? Nope.

 

Do you mean did the government bail out SAAB after GM got done "improving" it into bankruptcy only to let the company close? And did they sit back and let Ford sell Volvo cars to China? Yes.

 

Still, Volvo is better than ever and a big export. The trucks are the money maker I understand. Rumours are SAAB is coming back electric, not sure how well they will do or if Sweden sees those jobs.

 

The relationship between labour, government and the corporation is different.  Overall, it works for Sweden.

[Boiler 45,965]

So not a Socilaised system.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 minutes ago, Boiler said:

So not a Socilaised system.

Shhhh, he hasn’t quite caught up yet.

[90DayFinancier 910]

2 hours ago, Boiler said:

So not a Socilaised system.

Around autos?  No they let SAAB fail. But there was an injection of capital by the government and negotiations with Norway to let Swedish workers travel there. So there is always a system to mitigate the impacts.

Around health care =99.9% socialism.

Education: students have a choice of Schools, but there is no tuition charge, the government pays.

 

[Boiler 45,965]

Could be wrong but it seems most drugs are imported into the Nordic countries, so how does that add up to 99.9%

 

Does the State build the Hospitals, manufacture the beds, grow the food etc etc.