Court Upholds Trump Administration’s ‘Protect Life Rule’

[Orangesapples 1,954]

15 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

- Killing a family member is family planning

- Pregnancy is a serious medical condition

- Yet killing your own offspring is normal

 

An embryo is not a family member. It's just a growth of cells inside a person's body. 

 

You seem to forget that abortion is always safer than carrying to term. Always. No exceptions. That's just a fact.

 

Women have died in childbirth for millenia. Women have had serious tears and complications after giving birth for millenia. Not to mention the toll on the body a pregnancy takes, with side effects such as morning sickness, exhaustion, feeling heavy, limited mobility, etc. It's very, very serious. Not something an unwilling woman should be forced to go through. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

Just now, Orangesapples said:

An embryo is not a family member. It's just a growth of cells inside a person's body. 

 

You seem to forget that abortion is always safer than carrying to term. Always. No exceptions. That's just a fact.

 

Women have died in childbirth for millenia. Women have had serious tears and complications after giving birth for millenia. Not to mention the toll on the body a pregnancy takes, with side effects such as morning sickness, exhaustion, feeling heavy, limited mobility, etc. It's very, very serious. Not something an unwilling woman should be forced to go through. 

It's not? Damn. I better let the growth of cells I'm about to pick up from school and daycare know that they're not really family members, but the result of a serious medical condition.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

4 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

It's not? Damn. I better let the growth of cells I'm about to pick up from school and daycare know that they're not really family members, but the result of a serious medical condition.

Your embryo goes to school and daycare? And there I thought daycare and school is for people who have been born and have a developed nervous system and a developed brain but apparently embryos are going to school these days. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

13 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Your embryo goes to school and daycare? And there I thought daycare and school is for people who have been born and have a developed nervous system and a developed brain but apparently embryos are going to school these days. 

It might shock you to know those embryos are actually humans. It might further shock you to know that they're the same human inside a woman's body as they are outside. It's the same person as a blastocyst, embryo, fetus, newborn/baby, infant, toddler, kid/child, teenager, and adult. Amazing, right? They don't magically change into some other species or entity just because they exited a uterus, despite overt, arbitrary, insanely illogical attempts to pretend they're not human because one wants to justify their death.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 hour ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

It might shock you to know those embryos are actually humans. It might further shock you to know that they're the same human inside a woman's body as they are outside. It's the same person as a blastocyst, embryo, fetus, newborn/baby, infant, toddler, kid/child, teenager, and adult. Amazing, right? They don't magically change into some other species or entity just because they exited a uterus, despite overt, arbitrary, insanely illogical attempts to pretend they're not human because one wants to justify their death.

 

 

Nope, but something without the capability or history of having consciousness is human (the same way your hair is human) but not a person. A blastocyst could split in two and two persons will develop. Two blastocysts can merge together and then only one person will be formed (chimera). 

 

Are you sure you're pro choice? Do you also think miscarriages need funerals? And a birth certificate and a death certificate? Doesn't matter that the embryo was only 7 weeks along, it deserves to be legally recognized, right? 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Orangesapples

[Ban Hammer 13,678]

3 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Abortion is always, in all cases, 100% safer than carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth, so yes, it's healthcare.

not true. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

6 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Nope, but something without the capability or history of having consciousness is human (the same way your hair is human) but not a person. A blastocyst could split in two and two persons will develop. Two blastocysts can merge together and then only one person will be formed (chimera). 

 

Are you sure you're pro choice? Do you also think miscarriages need funerals? And a birth certificate and a death certificate? Doesn't matter that the embryo was only 7 weeks along, it deserves to be legally recognized, right? 

The blastocyst stage of human development is from within the first day of fertilization (when the fertilized egg first splits) until about several weeks in. What you describe in your second sentence are specifically identical twins (not the only type of twin) and the split in this circumstance occurs within the first week, so a fraction of the blastocyst development stage. These are rare enough, but chimerism is even rarer, and of the survivors, is not a refutation of the point. Either way, the human in there is the same human that comes out. It is not any less human because its in a uterus.

 

And yeah, miscarriages can need funerals. That's someone's child. My cousin miscarried and had a funeral, had a name for her baby, and started a charity with another parent she met that had the same type of miscarriage happen and they celebrate their children every year. 

 

I'm also sure I'm pro choice. Woman has the choice, at any stage of pregnancy, whether to stay pregnant or not. Easy. Of course, the disturbing thing is the idea that pro choice people need to be depraved sociopaths who don't see their offspring as human. The worst people in history have that distinct disconnect from others to justify how they're sub human and are exceptions to the rule. "Clump of cells" argument is precisely that. Shouldn't be anywhere near children/healthcare/pregnant women.

[Lemonslice 4,993]

2 hours ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

- Killing a family member is family planning

- Pregnancy is a serious medical condition

- Yet killing your own offspring is normal

 

Apparently humans have been doing it wrong all these millennia. 

Women have been using different methods stop their pregnancy for that long. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not, abortions will happen. Nice to know that anti-choice people would prefer to risk the lives of their friends, mothers and sisters (by forcing them to complete unwanted pregnancies, or to abort in unsafe conditions).  

 

When abortion is illegal, it becomes exponentially more unsafe for both women and their children. You may not like the fact that women will seek abortions even when they're illegal, but it is undeniably a fact nonetheless.

[Lemonslice 4,993]

2 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

The blastocyst stage of human development is from within the first day of fertilization (when the fertilized egg first splits) until about several weeks in. What you describe in your second sentence are specifically identical twins (not the only type of twin) and the split in this circumstance occurs within the first week, so a fraction of the blastocyst development stage. These are rare enough, but chimerism is even rarer, and of the survivors, is not a refutation of the point. Either way, the human in there is the same human that comes out. It is not any less human because its in a uterus.

 

And yeah, miscarriages can need funerals. That's someone's child. My cousin miscarried and had a funeral, had a name for her baby, and started a charity with another parent she met that had the same type of miscarriage happen and they celebrate their children every year. 

 

I'm also sure I'm pro choice. Woman has the choice, at any stage of pregnancy, whether to stay pregnant or not. Easy. Of course, the disturbing thing is the idea that pro choice people need to be depraved sociopaths who don't see their offspring as human. The worst people in history have that distinct disconnect from others to justify how they're sub human and are exceptions to the rule. "Clump of cells" argument is precisely that. Shouldn't be anywhere near children/healthcare/pregnant women.

I'm a proud depraved sociopath then.

 

A fetus can't survive on its own. It is fully dependent on its mother's body, unlike born human beings. Even if a fetus was alive, the "right to life" doesn't imply a right to use somebody else's body. People have the right to refuse to donate their organs, even if doing so would save somebody else's life.

The "right to life" also doesn't imply a right to live by threatening somebody else's life. Bearing children is always a threat the life of the mother.
A "right to life" is, at the end of the day, a right to not have somebody else's will imposed upon your body. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

9 minutes ago, Lemonslice said:

Women have been using different methods stop their pregnancy for that long. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not, abortions will happen. Nice to know that anti-choice people would prefer to risk the lives of their friends, mothers and sisters (by forcing them to complete unwanted pregnancies, or to abort in unsafe conditions).  

 

When abortion is illegal, it becomes exponentially more unsafe for both women and their children. You may not like the fact that women will seek abortions even when they're illegal, but it is undeniably a fact nonetheless.

2 minutes ago, Lemonslice said:

I'm a proud depraved sociopath then.

 

A fetus can't survive on its own. It is fully dependent on its mother's body, unlike born human beings. Even if a fetus was alive, the "right to life" doesn't imply a right to use somebody else's body. People have the right to refuse to donate their organs, even if doing so would save somebody else's life.

The "right to life" also doesn't imply a right to live by threatening somebody else's life. Bearing children is always a threat the life of the mother.
A "right to life" is, at the end of the day, a right to not have somebody else's will imposed upon your body. 

Cool stories. Sounds like you should take that up with people who said abortion should be illegal and are anti-choice.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

39 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

The blastocyst stage of human development is from within the first day of fertilization (when the fertilized egg first splits) until about several weeks in. What you describe in your second sentence are specifically identical twins (not the only type of twin) and the split in this circumstance occurs within the first week, so a fraction of the blastocyst development stage. These are rare enough, but chimerism is even rarer, and of the survivors, is not a refutation of the point. Either way, the human in there is the same human that comes out. It is not any less human because its in a uterus.

 

And yeah, miscarriages can need funerals. That's someone's child. My cousin miscarried and had a funeral, had a name for her baby, and started a charity with another parent she met that had the same type of miscarriage happen and they celebrate their children every year. 

 

I'm also sure I'm pro choice. Woman has the choice, at any stage of pregnancy, whether to stay pregnant or not. Easy. Of course, the disturbing thing is the idea that pro choice people need to be depraved sociopaths who don't see their offspring as human. The worst people in history have that distinct disconnect from others to justify how they're sub human and are exceptions to the rule. "Clump of cells" argument is precisely that. Shouldn't be anywhere near children/healthcare/pregnant women.

I love children and I've worked with children, I must be a sociopath since I don't consider embryos persons... 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

3 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Why do you think anyone would tell you about theur abortion? I have friends I know for a fact have had an abortion and almost no one else knows. If you're outspoken about being against it, there is one more reason why they wouldn't tell you. I know I would never share my friend's secret with someone like you. 

 

The 1/3 number comes from scietific studies. The number might even be underestimated because women might not want to share their story even anonymously because of judgmental people. Many women who protest outside of abortion clinics even have abortions! They for sure wouldn't tell third friends and family. 

 

Birth control fails all the time. A woman has 30 years of her life when she can get pregnant and if she's in a serious relationship or married, she likely has regular sex. Even with the best of precautions, statistically it's not unlikely that she'll have an unwanted pregnancy at some point in her life. No woman wants to deal with being pregnant and having to have an abortion, it's mentally and physically stressful. It's not like women are having abortions for fun.

Perhaps I have better/closer female friends than you?  Can't say for sure.  But I trust their word.

 

As for the bold part, first you say being pregnant is very dangerous, then you say getting an abortion is stressful.  Which is it?  Which one is harder?  Looking at the animal kingdom as a whole, there are a metric butt-load more births than abortions.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

2 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Perhaps I have better/closer female friends than you?  Can't say for sure.  But I trust their word.

 

As for the bold part, first you say being pregnant is very dangerous, then you say getting an abortion is stressful.  Which is it?  Which one is harder?  Looking at the animal kingdom as a whole, there are a metric butt-load more births than abortions.

Being pregnant is hard. If you have to have an abortion, you have to deal with being pregnant and all the lovely symptoms. Getting an abortion is not fun, the same way that getting a root canal is not fun. It's much easier to not get pregnant at all that to get pregnant and have an abortion. Having an abortion is easier and safer than carrying the pregnancy to term and giving birth. Always. No exceptions. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22270271/

 

Is this clear? 

 

Are you a man? Most women don't tell men who aren't the father about their abortions at all. Even close male friends. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

1 hour ago, Orangesapples said:

I love children and I've worked with children, I must be a sociopath since I don't consider embryos persons... 

They were an embryo. When did they magically become a human? One should worry about anyone that discards a human as not human for any reason, let alone the one you gave.

 

 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

4 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

They were an embryo. When did they magically become a human? One should worry about anyone that discards a human as not human for any reason, let alone the one you gave.

 

 

Sorry, I consider human tissue to become a person after it has developed a neocortex and a nervous system capable of consciousness.