Court Upholds Trump Administration’s ‘Protect Life Rule’

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Being pregnant is hard. If you have to have an abortion, you have to deal with being pregnant and all the lovely symptoms. Getting an abortion is not fun, the same way that getting a root canal is not fun. It's much easier to not get pregnant at all that to get pregnant and have an abortion. Having an abortion is easier and safer than carrying the pregnancy to term and giving birth. Always. No exceptions. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22270271/

 

Is this clear? 

 

Are you a man? Most women don't tell men who aren't the father about their abortions at all. Even close male friends. 

In much the same way that quitting a race before nearing the finish line is more likely to reduce the number of injuries, so indeed is the mortality rate of killing a fetus early in the pregnancy less likely to harm a woman.  So why do women insist on getting pregnant, this terribly unsafe, highly deadly practice?

 

OTOH, the mortality rate for fetuses in abortions is 100%, vs 0.018% of neonates carried to term.  

 

Also, the mortality rate for women from breast cancer is about 2.6%, or about 295 times the chance of dying from giving birth.  Will you now advocate for all women to cut their breasts off because it’s safer than dying from breast cancer?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Here’s a graphic which helps to put your maternal mortality rate into perspective.

 

 

[Lemonslice 4,852]

41 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Here’s a graphic which helps to put your maternal mortality rate into perspective.

 

 

Cool colours.

Nice to see that death by abortion is absent, because abortions do not kill babies.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

9 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Sorry, I consider human tissue to become a person after it has developed a neocortex and a nervous system capable of consciousness. 

so 6 months then?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

7 hours ago, Lemonslice said:

Cool colours.

Nice to see that death by abortion is absent, because abortions do not kill babies.

Patently false.  Abortions are the #1 way babies die.  
 

But I was more referring to the false narrative the other was trying to advance, the HUGE mortality rate of pregnant women.

[Rosalind F 178]

Stalin in the Soviet Union also banned abortions. Didn't help with actual abortion rates though, just made abortions more lethal. 

I find it so surprising that those passing laws don't want to learn the lesson from history. 

No matter what is somebody's opinion on whether a group of cells is human or not, people will be getting abortions. And if there's no safe, legal option, people will do dangerous things to try to stop the unwanted pregnancy.

Protecting human health should be a priority. 

[Lemonslice 4,852]

3 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Patently false.  Abortions are the #1 way babies die.  
 

But I was more referring to the false narrative the other was trying to advance, the HUGE mortality rate of pregnant women.

If all those babies die, why are they absent of your graph though? It's accurate or it isn't...

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

What I love is the reflexive responses to anything on the abortion issue, that not having doctors PROMOTE abortion (what this issue is about) is somehow the same thing as BANNING abortion (what this issue isn't about). You can see how those on the left have rehearsed this line over and over to themselves to the point where bad behavior is to be promoted by the government itself rather than the government staying out and letting people have freedom to make choices. The latter is what the original argument to legalize abortion was. This is how it's changed over time, and this is why the left are finding that even other pro choice people are turning against them as a result. You don't have to treat offspring as piles of trash just because you're pro choice. There's no sane reason to promote abortion as a "medical choice" outside the scope of medical necessity. It's not a choice to be valued. Similarly, even though recreational drug legalization is becoming more prominent, its not something for doctors or the government to promote. 

 

TIAL:

- Protecting human health is really killing one's offspring

- What made the USSR/Stalin bad is that they banned abortions

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 hour ago, Lemonslice said:

If all those babies die, why are they absent of your graph though? It's accurate or it isn't...

Because that graph wasn’t designed to illustrate the number of abortions I guess.  I didn’t make it, just saw it and reposted it.  It seems pretty accurate to me in relation to the deaths it does represent.  In no way did the author (nor I) indicate that the graph is all-inclusive of the ways one may die.

 

But I CAN throw down some numbers for you...

 

125,000 abortions per day world-wide.  About 2,350-3,000 per day in the US.  To put that into perspective, about 90 people die in car accidents daily in the US, between 862K ~ 1 million babies annually.

https://www.worldometers.info/abortions/ 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/number-abortions-u-s-drops-lowest-they-became-legal-nationwide-n1055726

 

Or we can go with the leading cause of death, cardiovascular disease:

Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States. One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease. About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year.

 

One baby is aborted every 29~33 seconds in the US, depending on whose tallies we wish to go with.  Either way, it’s a LOT.

 

Like I said, I am pro choice.  (If my wife got pregnant today, I’d want her to have an abortion) But remember that CHOICE can mean abstinence, contraceptives, waiting... it doesn’t have to be abortion.  Part of me doesn’t want abortion to be a form of birth control.  Another part of me doesn’t want kids having to grow up unwanted or improperly cared for.  It’s a slippery slope.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

9 hours ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

What I love is the reflexive responses to anything on the abortion issue, that not having doctors PROMOTE abortion (what this issue is about) is somehow the same thing as BANNING abortion (what this issue isn't about). You can see how those on the left have rehearsed this line over and over to themselves to the point where bad behavior is to be promoted by the government itself rather than the government staying out and letting people have freedom to make choices. The latter is what the original argument to legalize abortion was. This is how it's changed over time, and this is why the left are finding that even other pro choice people are turning against them as a result. You don't have to treat offspring as piles of trash just because you're pro choice. There's no sane reason to promote abortion as a "medical choice" outside the scope of medical necessity. It's not a choice to be valued. Similarly, even though recreational drug legalization is becoming more prominent, its not something for doctors or the government to promote. 

 

TIAL:

- Protecting human health is really killing one's offspring

- What made the USSR/Stalin bad is that they banned abortions

 

 

No, I don't agree with you that a doctor being objective and telling a woman about all her options is bad behavior. I think there are many, many cases when abortion is the best decision.

 

14 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Patently false.  Abortions are the #1 way babies die.  
 

But I was more referring to the false narrative the other was trying to advance, the HUGE mortality rate of pregnant women.

Mortality rate from giving birth is a much, much higher than mortality rate from getting an abortion. This is just a fact. Even if you don't account for the risk of death, pregnancy and giving birth can have a serious impact on a woman's health, well-being and comfort. Port partum depression is an actual thing and it's pretty hard on a woman. The strain of carrying a fetus for 9 months is very serious. There are so many physical and mental implications from carrying a pregnancy to term that abortion should really be the default solution when a pregnancy was not planned. No woman should have to go through pregnancy unless she wants to. 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

23 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

In much the same way that quitting a race before nearing the finish line is more likely to reduce the number of injuries, so indeed is the mortality rate of killing a fetus early in the pregnancy less likely to harm a woman.  So why do women insist on getting pregnant, this terribly unsafe, highly deadly practice?

 

OTOH, the mortality rate for fetuses in abortions is 100%, vs 0.018% of neonates carried to term.  

 

Also, the mortality rate for women from breast cancer is about 2.6%, or about 295 times the chance of dying from giving birth.  Will you now advocate for all women to cut their breasts off because it’s safer than dying from breast cancer?

Women who want to be mothers want to get pregnant. Of course, pregnancy might be too hard on them still, I know a few women who desperately wanted to get pregnant and have a child, finally did it and they never want to go through that again because it was so hard. It's only worth the risk if the woman wants it. There are also quite a few women who've had an abortion and later on wanted to get pregnant when they were ready. Because when you want it, you're willing to go through with it. 

 

I'm not advocating for all women to have an abortion when they're pregnant. But this option should always be made available to them and be presented in a clear, non judgemental way. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

10 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

No, I don't agree with you that a doctor being objective and telling a woman about all her options is bad behavior. I think there are many, many cases when abortion is the best decision.

You're free not to agree, but thankfully the courts upheld the rule that abortion should not be promoted by healthcare workers unless there's a medical necessity. At least sanity is prevailing somewhere.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Women who want to be mothers want to get pregnant. Of course, pregnancy might be too hard on them still, I know a few women who desperately wanted to get pregnant and have a child, finally did it and they never want to go through that again because it was so hard. It's only worth the risk if the woman wants it. There are also quite a few women who've had an abortion and later on wanted to get pregnant when they were ready. Because when you want it, you're willing to go through with it. 

 

I'm not advocating for all women to have an abortion when they're pregnant. But this option should always be made available to them and be presented in a clear, non judgemental way. 

More than 50% of women having abortions are having their 2nd/3rd/4th abortion.

 

Surely they COULD be learning that using contraceptives and being more careful is cheaper and easier on their body than abortion?

 

Sure, sex is fun, and preventing a pregnancy should be a shared enterprise, but it's the WOMAN'S body, so why are they not better using contraceptives?  These repeat abortions should be teaching a valuable lesson to those who are having them.

 

75% of women having abortions are poor or low income.  Seems to me that saving money alone would be a driving factor to not getting pregnant.  

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

2 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

More than 50% of women having abortions are having their 2nd/3rd/4th abortion.

 

Surely they COULD be learning that using contraceptives and being more careful is cheaper and easier on their body than abortion?

 

Sure, sex is fun, and preventing a pregnancy should be a shared enterprise, but it's the WOMAN'S body, so why are they not better using contraceptives?  These repeat abortions should be teaching a valuable lesson to those who are having them.

 

75% of women having abortions are poor or low income.  Seems to me that saving money alone would be a driving factor to not getting pregnant.  

Not only that, but given the logical comparison I made with drugs and "can" vs. "should" (promotion), it's interesting that these two issues have disproportionate consequences toward minorities. It's disproportionately minority children being killed through abortion, them being killed/incarcerated through drugs. Yet, the left want people in healthcare promoting things like elective abortion anyways. Even more, they want taxpayers paying for someone's elective choice to kill their own offspring. Democrat politicians want to give special drug dealer licenses specifically to minorities. The cultural trash heap the left are catering to goes far beyond "choice", is increasingly alienating even those of us pro choice people.

 

Neither "side" have substantial logic on this issue. Pro life overwhelmingly ignores the woman. Pro choice overwhelmingly ignores the baby. It's both lives that need to be respected, and clearly, given the history of going nowhere catering substantially to either side, a solution is definitely in the middle. Thus, we're stuck with an infinitely swinging pendulum of idiocy where one side gets their way until they take it too far, then things swing the other direction. And clearly, in 2020, the left seem destined to watch as rights of choice start being rolled back again. No one learns lessons, and in the end, its the politicians and establishment+elite who benefit from it. They aren't aborting their kids, rather, they overwhelmingly pave the way (knocking down obstacles, i.e. bribing universities, surname recognition for jobs, etc.) for their offspring's success in life. I guess it's not enough of a hint as to who abortion, and generation after generation of bad/dumb life choices targets. It's long been obvious what the right want, but the left are losing touch with the "choice" concept.. instead of being advocates for simple choice (with the understanding that people can choose to make bad choices, as there ARE bad choices, and deal with the consequences so long as others aren't victimized), they're now advocates of forcing taxpayers to pay for those choices, for healthcare to promote these elective "choices", and in going so far off the deep end in being advocates for bad choices (refusing to separate that you don't need to promote bad choices to be pro choice, pro freedom), become the very dehumanizing authoritarians they once galvanized people to their side opposing. It's really a microcosm of where the left have gone overall.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[TBoneTX 45,309]

On 2/25/2020 at 2:00 AM, TBoneTX said:

Once knew a Cesar Ensalada, VayBAC when.

Everyone seems to have missed the above triple (or quadruple) pun.

On 2/25/2020 at 3:59 PM, Voice of Reason said:

Condoms [...] ... THOSE are family planning

Condom, n. - an endangered California bird of prey