Religious Vent...I'm so confused and need to talk about it.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

[sukrd 0]

Religion is always a touchy subject. Personally I believe religion is the reason for most of the worlds problems, past and present. It is human nature to think that what YOU believe is correct. If you believe in something else you are wrong, and as many Christians say "going to hell" . I went to Catholic school for ten years so I know a little about the Bible, not to say I take it all literally. To me, so called Christians can not even come to a concensus about Christianity. Even within Chrisitian sects they judge each other. And now within some groups, if you don't believe that groups interpretations then you are wrong. And of course going to hell. It's quite sad.

I think that people should read their religious books and interpret what's written in them for themselves. I guess it is human nature to think that if someone stands in front of you and tells you things, that it must be true. My SO is a devout Catholic. I'm not. We talked about it and she's cool with it. Personally I could care less what she believes in. She's a good person and that is ALL that matters. Religion is a personal journey.

Confucious (or someone) said, there are many paths to the top of the mountain. or something like that. I think people should read about other religions and try to broaden their horizons. Personally, I don't think there is one true religion. When you get past the personal figures in each religion and the BS, then the core of most religions are the same. This is my observation and opinion. I am probably wrong and going to hell. Oh well....

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

I'm not talking about believing in something (faith), but on some intellectual level, understanding why people believe what they believe.

I am not Muslim, but I understand the logic of why Mohammad is considered a prophet as I can understand the wisdom and truth that exists in Buddhism even thought I'm not Buddhist.

Jesus did say some things that his contemporaries found not only radical but so heretical that they wanted him dead (claiming you are the Son of God isn't something that most Jews would say). His teachings did in fact contradict a lot of Jewish laws and understanding of their faith which got him into a lot of trouble. It wasn't people who turned him into God after his death - it was his disciples through the witness of his life and teachings that recognized him as the Messiah of their Jewish tradition - a fulfillment of the scriptures.

[chri'stina 190]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

I'm not talking about believing in something (faith), but on some intellectual level, understanding why people believe what they believe.

I am not Muslim, but I understand the logic of why Mohammad is considered a prophet as I can understand the wisdom and truth that exists in Buddhism even thought I'm not Buddhist.

Jesus did say some things that his contemporaries found not only radical but so heretical that they wanted him dead (claiming you are the Son of God isn't something that most Jews would say). His teachings did in fact contradict a lot of Jewish laws and understanding of their faith which got him into a lot of trouble. It wasn't people who turned him into God after his death - it was his disciples through the witness of his life and teachings that recognized him as the Messiah of their Jewish tradition - a fulfillment of the scriptures.

Well said.

One issue that will come up though when discussing with someone from the Muslim faith, is that they believe the bible was corrupted, so they don't think the places where Jesus said that He was indeed God, and talking about fulfillment of prophecy about a Messiah are even the correct story of what happened.

From the bible viewpoint, it's very logical to see how Christianity became what it was, like you already described so well. But I think G-E-G doesn't believe Jesus said anything about Himself being God, but that people later made it up in the "corrupted" bible. That is just one of the issues where we greatly differ from Islam. But you are smart so you probably already knew that. Sorry if I am saying stuff you already know.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

I'm not talking about believing in something (faith), but on some intellectual level, understanding why people believe what they believe.

I am not Muslim, but I understand the logic of why Mohammad is considered a prophet as I can understand the wisdom and truth that exists in Buddhism even thought I'm not Buddhist.

Jesus did say some things that his contemporaries found not only radical but so heretical that they wanted him dead (claiming you are the Son of God isn't something that most Jews would say). His teachings did in fact contradict a lot of Jewish laws and understanding of their faith which got him into a lot of trouble. It wasn't people who turned him into God after his death - it was his disciples through the witness of his life and teachings that recognized him as the Messiah of their Jewish tradition - a fulfillment of the scriptures.

Well said.

One issue that will come up though when discussing with someone from the Muslim faith, is that they believe the bible was corrupted, so they don't think the places where Jesus said that He was indeed God, and talking about fulfillment of prophecy about a Messiah are even the correct story of what happened.

From the bible viewpoint, it's very logical to see how Christianity became what it was, like you already described so well. But I think G-E-G doesn't believe Jesus said anything about Himself being God, but that people later made it up in the "corrupted" bible. That is just one of the issues where we greatly differ from Islam. But you are smart so you probably already knew that. Sorry if I am saying stuff you already know.

Well said, my conservative sister. (reference to the test results from the thread on what we believe)

I remember hearing that Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet (?), but all references to him being the Messiah was fabricated by his followers. Although I've never tried it, but I'd like to see just how much of Jesus' teachings and sayings would be left if you removed all references to him being the Son of God from the Gospels?

[Scott & Lai 12]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

I'm not talking about believing in something (faith), but on some intellectual level, understanding why people believe what they believe.

I am not Muslim, but I understand the logic of why Mohammad is considered a prophet as I can understand the wisdom and truth that exists in Buddhism even thought I'm not Buddhist.

Jesus did say some things that his contemporaries found not only radical but so heretical that they wanted him dead (claiming you are the Son of God isn't something that most Jews would say). His teachings did in fact contradict a lot of Jewish laws and understanding of their faith which got him into a lot of trouble. It wasn't people who turned him into God after his death - it was his disciples through the witness of his life and teachings that recognized him as the Messiah of their Jewish tradition - a fulfillment of the scriptures.

Well said.

One issue that will come up though when discussing with someone from the Muslim faith, is that they believe the bible was corrupted, so they don't think the places where Jesus said that He was indeed God, and talking about fulfillment of prophecy about a Messiah are even the correct story of what happened.

From the bible viewpoint, it's very logical to see how Christianity became what it was, like you already described so well. But I think G-E-G doesn't believe Jesus said anything about Himself being God, but that people later made it up in the "corrupted" bible. That is just one of the issues where we greatly differ from Islam. But you are smart so you probably already knew that. Sorry if I am saying stuff you already know.

Well said, my conservative sister. (reference to the test results from the thread on what we believe)

I remember hearing that Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet (?), but all references to him being the Messiah was fabricated by his followers. Although I've never tried it, but I'd like to see just how much of Jesus' teachings and sayings would be left if you removed all references to him being the Son of God from the Gospels?

Well said, Stina and Steve As a point of clarification for GEG, no, Jesus didn't claim to be a "Christian", he claimed to be the Christ. Those who confessed him as Lord and Christ were called "Christians". Since Christians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, calling Jesus a "Christian" would be like calling God in the Old Testament a "Yahwist". And since we believe that Jesus is the same God who gave the Law on Mount Sinai, we have no problem with the idea that Jesus has the right to change/reinterpret/fulfill the Law...it is his Law. Also, the early Jewish Christians didn't break off from their fellow Jews by choice; the Jews who rejected Jesus eventually forced the Jewish Christians out of the synagogues. So, from the Christian point of view, since those Jews rejected their own Messiah, they were the ones to break off from their religion and essentially create a new religion in its place.

Edited June 16, 2007 by Scott & Lai

[maxnma 1]

Michelle,

I can relate to your circumstances. I was raised in a very very conservative religion and community. Saving any details, I stayed away from religion for 20 years. When I had my baby, I knew I wanted her to have the foundation of religion. I couldn't see myself not providing that for her but I knew I wanted it to be a different religion than the one I was raised in.

When I found myself going through a divorce, I knew that I needed to go back to church for myself and my child and began going to a church nearby. It was non-denominational and it fillled my need at the time for comfort but something didnt' feel right. I went to another non-denominational church. That was ok for a while but I still wasn't finding what I was looking for but what that was I didn't know either.

I moved to another city with just myself and my child. I began going to another non-denominational church. It had over 8,000 members. Each sermon felt like a movie production with the big screens, stand-up-comedian like pastor, live band playing pop gospel music, etc. That church didn't fill my needs either.

I prayed about finding a church that was smaller and would give me more of connection with the people. Again, saving any details, the church I was looking for 'found' me and I've stuck with this church for almost past 4 years. I received answers to questions that I had my whole life and it felt like I found the missing pieces of the puzzle.

My family and friends don't understand or approve but I've found almost a better family in my church and I've met some of the most amazing people and made new like-minded friends as well.

It is a good feeling being in the right place for me and my family and although it was a long frustrating road when I was looking for the right church, I don't regret any of it because I now see that it lead me to where I needed to be.

I found the right place for me by praying and asking to be lead to the right church.

I hope you find the right place for you too.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

I'm not talking about believing in something (faith), but on some intellectual level, understanding why people believe what they believe.

I am not Muslim, but I understand the logic of why Mohammad is considered a prophet as I can understand the wisdom and truth that exists in Buddhism even thought I'm not Buddhist.

Jesus did say some things that his contemporaries found not only radical but so heretical that they wanted him dead (claiming you are the Son of God isn't something that most Jews would say). His teachings did in fact contradict a lot of Jewish laws and understanding of their faith which got him into a lot of trouble. It wasn't people who turned him into God after his death - it was his disciples through the witness of his life and teachings that recognized him as the Messiah of their Jewish tradition - a fulfillment of the scriptures.

Well said.

One issue that will come up though when discussing with someone from the Muslim faith, is that they believe the bible was corrupted, so they don't think the places where Jesus said that He was indeed God, and talking about fulfillment of prophecy about a Messiah are even the correct story of what happened.

From the bible viewpoint, it's very logical to see how Christianity became what it was, like you already described so well. But I think G-E-G doesn't believe Jesus said anything about Himself being God, but that people later made it up in the "corrupted" bible. That is just one of the issues where we greatly differ from Islam. But you are smart so you probably already knew that. Sorry if I am saying stuff you already know.

Well said, my conservative sister. (reference to the test results from the thread on what we believe)

I remember hearing that Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet (?), but all references to him being the Messiah was fabricated by his followers. Although I've never tried it, but I'd like to see just how much of Jesus' teachings and sayings would be left if you removed all references to him being the Son of God from the Gospels?

Well said, Stina and Steve As a point of clarification for GEG, no, Jesus didn't claim to be a "Christian", he claimed to be the Christ. Those who confessed him as Lord and Christ were called "Christians". Since Christians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, calling Jesus a "Christian" would be like calling God in the Old Testament a "Yahwist". And since we believe that Jesus is the same God who gave the Law on Mount Sinai, we have no problem with the idea that Jesus has the right to change/reinterpret/fulfill the Law...it is his Law. Also, the early Jewish Christians didn't break off from their fellow Jews by choice; the Jews who rejected Jesus eventually forced the Jewish Christians out of the synagogues. So, from the Christian point of view, since those Jews rejected their own Messiah, they were the ones to break off from their religion and essentially create a new religion in its place.

Thanks, but I don't need clarification. I wasn't even interested in commenting further, but the response to my post by Steven was so distorted due to his misinterpretation of my comments that I felt moved to reply. However, the responses to that post are also misinterpreted, so, once again, I respond.

I'm not just a Muslim whom is to be assumed to hold certain beliefs that would make me see things a certain way. It is quite convenient and presumptupus of those who dismiss me that way to state my belief for me when I have made no such claims for myself. My Ph.D. is in religious history and law, and it is not limited to Islam. I probably know more about Christianity and its history than most doctrinal Christians do, and not only what I would want to believe as a sectarian Christian, but what actually is known to have happened.

Considering that Steve misinterpreted my original post, and proceeded to answer it in a way that did not respond to its original premise, it followed that he and those who followed his lead needed clarification about what I said. I made that attempt, but, in turn, have merely been dismissed as a typical Muslim with a set of beliefs that would "naturally" skew my view, as if being layman Christians with a subjective set of beliefs doesn't skew one's views of Jesus. The topic of this thread is, after all, the differences between the beliefs of one set of Christians being in conflict with Michelle's views, marking the fact that people who follow some generalities of a faith may not always agree with the specifics.

It makes no sense for non-Muslims to presume to explain to others what I am assumed to believe as a Muslim while at the same time telling me what Christians believe because, as Christians, you assume you know better. If you feel a need to clarify what I believe for me, please hesitate to submit to that compulsion. You can always ask me instead; that would yield a true clarification.

Edited June 16, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Portlander 0]

I am of the belief that religion serves as a tool to help people become better. Fifferent people thrive in different churches, and those churches change over time.

Additionally, I think that understanding one's self is the most important goal therein. If you don't strive to understand yourself in the fairest possible way, you will never really know what your actions are, and why.

I strongly feel that everyone must go through stages. I don't think you can effectively "teach from the end of the book" ... you can't expect anyone to behave perfectly without any real understanding about why this or this is right or wrong. As such, I don't think God is dogmatic. Each person has to grapple with the nuts and bolts of right and wrong on their own terms. Simply hearing the rules of behavior doesn't cut it. "Fear can really only motivate people for so long. Love is a much bigger motivater."

So I guesss what I'm saying is that you know what is right for you, in your heart. You know what you need and you know where it is or it isn't. A friend once told me that she flips a coin when she makes a decision. But instead of abiding by the coin, she examines her reaction to the side of the coin that comes up, and uses THAT as a guide.

[Scott & Lai 12]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

Thanks, but I don't need clarification. I wasn't even interested in commenting further, but the response to my post by Steven was so distorted due to his misinterpretation of my comments that I felt moved to reply. However, the responses to that post are also misinterpreted, so, once again, I respond.

I'm not just a Muslim whom is to be assumed to hold certain beliefs that would make me see things a certain way. It is quite convenient and presumptupus of those who dismiss me that way to state my belief for me when I have made no such claims for myself. My Ph.D. is in religious history and law, and it is not limited to Islam. I probably know more about Christianity and its history than most doctrinal Christians do, and not only what I would want to believe as a sectarian Christian, but what actually is known to have happened.

I did not intend to "dismiss" you, but was responding to your statement that Jesus was never a Christian. Christians don't claim that Jesus said he was a "Christian," they claim he said he was the "Christ." There is a significant difference between the two. You also said that it was followers of Jesus after his death who turned him into God. The fact is, people who were there at the time and who knew him claimed that their belief in his divinity came from his own words.

You also made a point about Christians going to churches instead of synagogues....I had earlier pointed out that they are essentially the same thing, just two different words for a gathering (or a gathering place) for worship.

Please do not assume because of your PHD that you know more than than those who disagree with you. There are plenty of Christians with PHDs who have a vastly different view of the origins of Christianity and of the text of the New Testament.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

Please read carefully. I said nothing at all about Christianity being a denouncement of Judaism. I said Jesus never denounced Judiasm, and Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His contemporaries were Jews. People who came along after his death turned him into God, called themselves Christians, broke away from Judaism and created a new religion around him.

Faith is not about logic.

Thanks, but I don't need clarification. I wasn't even interested in commenting further, but the response to my post by Steven was so distorted due to his misinterpretation of my comments that I felt moved to reply. However, the responses to that post are also misinterpreted, so, once again, I respond.

I'm not just a Muslim whom is to be assumed to hold certain beliefs that would make me see things a certain way. It is quite convenient and presumptupus of those who dismiss me that way to state my belief for me when I have made no such claims for myself. My Ph.D. is in religious history and law, and it is not limited to Islam. I probably know more about Christianity and its history than most doctrinal Christians do, and not only what I would want to believe as a sectarian Christian, but what actually is known to have happened.

I did not intend to "dismiss" you, but was responding to your statement that Jesus was never a Christian. Christians don't claim that Jesus said he was a "Christian," they claim he said he was the "Christ." There is a significant difference between the two. You also said that it was followers of Jesus after his death who turned him into God. The fact is, people who were there at the time and who knew him claimed that their belief in his divinity came from his own words.

You also made a point about Christians going to churches instead of synagogues....I had earlier pointed out that they are essentially the same thing, just two different words for a gathering (or a gathering place) for worship.

Please do not assume because of your PHD that you know more than than those who disagree with you. There are plenty of Christians with PHDs who have a vastly different view of the origins of Christianity and of the text of the New Testament.

Excellent post, brother Scott.

Green-Eyed-Girl, I meant no deliberate misrepresentation of your personal belief, I was merely stating what limited understanding I have about the Muslim religion's view of Jesus. I apologize if I offended you. As compelled as you felt about responding to my post, I hope you can understand that I also felt compelled to respond to your initial post about Jesus and the Christian religion.

Edited June 16, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Please do not assume because of your PHD that you know more than than those who disagree with you.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Fandango 1,440]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Not only that, but ironically enough, the Old Testament is very clear that He wouldn't be rec'd by His own people...their denouncement of Him is one of the things that fulfills the Torah.

[Scott & Lai 12]

I've never been a Christian, nor had the inclination to become one, I have to admit. But since Jesus was a Jew, stayed a Jew, did not denounce Judaism nor create a new religion by intent, but simply meant to lead people to God and away from worldly desires, how worshipping him as God, Himself, breaking away from Judaism instead of reforming it, becoming Christians, and attending churches instead of synagogues became the result of what he taught is beyond me. Sorry, I just had to make that observation,which is not meant as a put down. It just seems strange to me.

The Jews believe in the concept of a Messiah - they just don't happen to believe that this man (Jesus) was it. Christianity isn't a denouncement of Judaism, but a fulfillment of that belief, at least in the mind of its followers. You don't have to be a Christian to understand that logic.

Not only that, but ironically enough, the Old Testament is very clear that He wouldn't be rec'd by His own people...their denouncement of Him is one of the things that fulfills the Torah.

Excellent point, Lisa

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I did not intend to "dismiss" you, but was responding to your statement that Jesus was never a Christian. Christians don't claim that Jesus said he was a "Christian," they claim he said he was the "Christ." There is a significant difference between the two. You also said that it was followers of Jesus after his death who turned him into God. The fact is, people who were there at the time and who knew him claimed that their belief in his divinity came from his own words.

You also made a point about Christians going to churches instead of synagogues....I had earlier pointed out that they are essentially the same thing, just two different words for a gathering (or a gathering place) for worship.

Please do not assume because of your PHD that you know more than than those who disagree with you. There are plenty of Christians with PHDs who have a vastly different view of the origins of Christianity and of the text of the New Testament.

I'm not making any assumptions here, merely asking that none be made about me, nor that words be put into my "mouth", as has been done, including my presumed beliefs as a Muslim nor my presumed attitude toward people without Ph.Ds who disagree with me. I am speaking from a historical context, not an emotional one. I mentioned my education merely to provide context to my comments after I saw that I was being described as a Muslim whose beliefs would limit me in my understanding of Christian doctrine, not to hold myself out as an authority re the subject. So, the high-fiving around the rebuttals to my comments may feel good, but are meaningless. I am not unaware of the background of the faith, and can express myself clearly as to what I, as a Muslim, believe. I can also distinquish between what I believe as a Muslim, and the historical context of the formation of the Christian faith.

I said that Jesus was never a Christian, never went to church, came to lead people away from worldly desires. There is nothing about that to diagree with. He was made into a God by others, as his intent was to lead others to God. There is plenty of evidence that shows that among those who followed him, not all believed him to be divine himself. His words, like any others, can and have been misinterpreted to this day, so his divinity is a matter of interpretation and still is, even among those who call themselves Christian. I also said that among Christians, there are divisions due to the acceptance and rejection of certain doctrines, and Michelle's disagreement with her parents while still believing in Christianity is evidence of that. I don't believe I have said anything new nor anything that can be held in dispute if one is objective.

Edited June 16, 2007 by Green-eyed girl