Rep. Ilhan Omar promotes call for GI Bill to apply to all Americans

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

4 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

And if we make K-12 not free the problems will disappear? 

 

No, ever since the founding of this country school has been free for students that I am aware of. 

[yuna628 9,744]

5 minutes ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

 

You don't have to travel very far from the OC to see failing schools. Just head on up the 5 to East LA or the 405 to South LA to see some failing schools. That's why the LA USD is failing with dropping enrollment year after year. 

It's just frustrating some times... there's a lot of people that have decent schools in the richer suburbia and they somehow assume everyone else must be doing just groovy. They just need to go outside the bubble to see it's not working.. 

 

I don't live in the inner city anymore, but even in this rural area, the schools are absolutely terrible and people are in extreme poverty. They don't have the education to get a job, and they turn to drugs and crime. Something I got thinking about lately is the amount of orphans that are left behind due to their parents (the lack of education and poverty is generational so that shows you how far back it goes) ODing. These kids are broken and left with nothing.. no hope.

 

I don't know how some of these kids manage to survive and do it, but you have to hand it to the courage they have, because we see them all the time coming to my husband's college to finish their GEDs and start learning a trade.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

2 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

It's just frustrating some times... there's a lot of people that have decent schools in the richer suburbia and they somehow assume everyone else must be doing just groovy. They just need to go outside the bubble to see it's not working.. 

 

I don't live in the inner city anymore, but even in this rural area, the schools are absolutely terrible and people are in extreme poverty. They don't have the education to get a job, and they turn to drugs and crime. Something I got thinking about lately is the amount of orphans that are left behind due to their parents (the lack of education and poverty is generational so that shows you how far back it goes) ODing. These kids are broken and left with nothing.. no hope.

 

I don't know how some of these kids manage to survive and do it, but you have to hand it to the courage they have, because we see them all the time coming to my husband's college to finish their GEDs and start learning a trade.

That's a very serious problem and it will not be solved by making public school charge students for tuition. 

The problem is not whether the schools are public or not, the problem is in how they're run and how much funding they receive. Also, using property taxes to fund schools is not a great idea, they need more centralized funding. 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,386]

3 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

So education is now just a personal choice, the same as getting your nails done? Society doesn't benefit from people being educated? 

 

Some taxpayers don't need free education. I am done with higher education and if we have kids, we'll probably be able to afford to pay their tuition. My spouse doesn't have any student loans left. Guess what, I want my taxes to pay for other people's education and I want kids to be able to start in life on equal footing. I don't want my taxes to go to the military. How come no one ever asks how we're going to pay for all the senseless wars? But education, nah, that doesn't matter apparently. 

Lets clear up one thing. There is no such thing as free. It's taking money from my salary and using it to subside the choices of someone else. Nothing should be without some form of accountability. Some form of community service, military service, assisting the elderly and disabled.. something. I have seen far too many people have a life goal of living of the gumberment

[Orangesapples 1,954]

5 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Lets clear up one thing. There is no such thing as free. It's taking money from my salary and using it to subside the choices of someone else. Nothing should be without some form of accountability. Some form of community service, military service, assisting the elderly and disabled.. something. I have seen far too many people have a life goal of living of the gumberment

How about... Studying hard? Getting good grades? You're acting as if education doesn't require effort. 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,386]

8 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

How about... Studying hard? Getting good grades? You're acting as if education doesn't require effort. 

No see that's what is called a deflection.  I am talking about the government giving away other people's money without expecting any kind effort to earn it. That has nothing to do with getting good grades.

[laylalex 7,300]

2 hours ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

You can have educational opportunites by going to lower cost public universities and community college to start. I am more than fine for the first two years of community/vocational college to be free.

 

But I think there should be rules on it just like if you used the GI Bill. So if you are using the GI Bill and you fail a class or drop out past the drop out date then YOU have to pay the VA back for that class. So I would want those type of rules on any sort of community college being offered. 

I think we agree on this mostly.  I like the idea of being accountable for your own success and having some skin in the game.

[laylalex 7,300]

I guess I'm coming at it from this angle -- we all benefit from a better-educated or better-trained population. Why are we not pouring money in at EVERY level of public education? Why are we so dependent on local tax bases that make for distortions in the quality of public education? I grew up in Burbank and went K-12 in their school system. I had a fantastic education. And only five miles away is North Hollywood, where I spent the first five years of my life, and where my sister did Kindergarten and first grade. It's in the LAUSD and my parents got the hell out of NoHo as soon as they could. A zip code system isn't fair to anyone except for those who already have plenty of privilege and can afford to leave.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

29 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

No see that's what is called a deflection.  I am talking about the government giving away other people's money without expecting any kind effort to earn it. That has nothing to do with getting good grades.

You earn your education by being a good enough student in order to get accepted to university and then attending your classes and studying. That requires a lot of effort and is the only effort that should be expected from kids entering adulthood. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Orangesapples

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

11 minutes ago, laylalex said:

I think we agree on this mostly.  I like the idea of being accountable for your own success and having some skin in the game.

This is what I think @Orangesapples is referring to. Because many European countries send you to college for next to nothing but you have to score high enough on the exams to warrant that.  Which anyone can tell you that the first years of college are usually the hardest. 

 

I can tell you that I had to pay back one class because I dropped it to late. Stupid Art class professor was to strict so I dropped it

 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,386]

I do not believe for one second that pouring money into education is the sole key to having great outcomes. My mothers generation went to schools in one room buildings with coal stoves. Won WW2, developed the atom bomb, put a man on the moon, cured polio 

 

 

[laylalex 7,300]

10 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I do not believe for one second that pouring money into education is the sole key to having great outcomes. My mothers generation went to schools in one room buildings with coal stoves. Won WW2, developed the atom bomb, put a man on the moon, cured polio 

 

 

I never said it was the sole solution. But we're dealing with a bigger population now in this country, sometimes using the same plant that existed 50+ years ago. In California, property tax receipts are kept artificially low as a result of Proposition 13, so more needs to be done with less. And of course money is only part of the problem -- attracting and retaining talent, reducing useless levels of administration, incentivizing pupils, discipline, security, etc. These are big issues that need to be thought about in an expansive way -- there is no silver bullet with a dollar sign on it. This is a difficult set of interlocking issues that needs big picture thinking.

[yuna628 9,744]

25 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I do not believe for one second that pouring money into education is the sole key to having great outcomes. My mothers generation went to schools in one room buildings with coal stoves. Won WW2, developed the atom bomb, put a man on the moon, cured polio 

 

 

Throwing money at the problem isn't going to help, as we've been throwing money at it for generations and nothing has changed. It has become worse. We are failing generation after generation of kids becoming adults. That's not to say that money isn't badly needed, but a whole fundamental change as well. As for all those more famous life-changing events that Americans were involved in, a lot of those persons came from foreign schools and high level universities where education is vastly different in scope. We had a much different mindset back then.

 

My grandfather was an engineer, carpenter, mechanic, and artist... never finished his schooling until he was able to get his GED as an older man. Crazy smart though, not a thing he couldn't do. Nowadays my husband is talking to teachers at college that have kids coming in that don't have basic math and reading skills. They passed entry exams and placements to somehow get in. And he's heard stories of teachers being told if they don't pass bad kids they will be fired. Some kids didn't even know how to use a computer vs a phone and couldn't function in a basic computer class. Unless proper education is given when young.. they aren't going to make it as adults.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

6 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

You know the US has terrible problems, right? 

Refresh my memory.  Why did you come here again?  Why did you leave Armenia?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

5 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

So education is now just a personal choice, the same as getting your nails done? Society doesn't benefit from people being educated? 

 

Some taxpayers don't need free education. I am done with higher education and if we have kids, we'll probably be able to afford to pay their tuition. My spouse doesn't have any student loans left. Guess what, I want my taxes to pay for other people's education and I want kids to be able to start in life on equal footing. I don't want my taxes to go to the military. How come no one ever asks how we're going to pay for all the senseless wars? But education, nah, that doesn't matter apparently. 

You DO realize, don't you, that your taxes don't have to pay for others' education?  You can just donate a portion of your monthly salary to multiple colleges of your choice, funding grants for students who need them.