Rep. Ilhan Omar promotes call for GI Bill to apply to all Americans

[Dashinka 24,871]

4 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Plumbers and electricians also go to school, it's a skilled job. BTW, Bernie will make school for them free, too. 

Yet for some reason skilled tradespeople actually learn a great skill without the crippling debt.  I wonder if they are smarter than those folks that spend a fortune for a worthless degree and then cry the taxpayers should pay for it.

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 minute ago, Bill & Katya said:

Yet for some reason skilled tradespeople actually learn a great skill without the crippling debt.  I wonder if they are smarter than those folks that spend a fortune for a worthless degree and then cry the taxpayers should pay for it.

They're good at what they do. Academics matter, too. 

[Dashinka 24,871]

1 minute ago, Orangesapples said:

They're good at what they do. Academics matter, too. 

Academics matter sometimes, this is very dependent on what is learned and how it will be applied.  I would say it is more appropriate to say learning matters. 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

16 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Academics matter sometimes, this is very dependent on what is learned and how it will be applied.  I would say it is more appropriate to say learning matters. 

Not everyone is pretty enough to be a model and not everyone is cut out to be an electrician. I don't see what's controversial about that. 

[Dashinka 24,871]

7 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

Not everyone is pretty enough to be a model and not everyone is cut out to be an electrician. I don't see what's controversial about that. 

The controversial part is expecting taxpayers to pay for someone else’s personal choices.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

35 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Yet for some reason skilled tradespeople actually learn a great skill without the crippling debt.  I wonder if they are smarter than those folks that spend a fortune for a worthless degree and then cry the taxpayers should pay for it.

It's funny because (overwhelmingly) people who go into trades tend to invest the time/effort to build their human capital because they're filling a gap that's needed, not merely for the fun of it. They take the risk and take the reward. However, if Joe Schmoe decides to, on taxpayer dime, get trained in a skill that they can't make money on, in the near infinite reasons why (but a few might be oversupply, lack of demand, etc.), in this case, the taxpayer is on the hook, not only for the useless education, but for the resulting lack of usefulness in the job market, as the same left will expect that society cover for that person's uselessness. 

 

In the end, it's another leftist idea that's useless and crippling. We already had so many people in the Bay Area with Liberal Arts degrees working retail because their degree had no value on the market. These useless degrees created a meritocratic environment where people weren't trying to find ways to create value in a marketplace but simply felt entitled to specific jobs because of their background. It not only had an effect economically but politically/psychologically. It's toxic.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

11 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

The controversial part is expecting taxpayers to pay for someone else’s personal choices.

So education is now just a personal choice, the same as getting your nails done? Society doesn't benefit from people being educated? 

 

Some taxpayers don't need free education. I am done with higher education and if we have kids, we'll probably be able to afford to pay their tuition. My spouse doesn't have any student loans left. Guess what, I want my taxes to pay for other people's education and I want kids to be able to start in life on equal footing. I don't want my taxes to go to the military. How come no one ever asks how we're going to pay for all the senseless wars? But education, nah, that doesn't matter apparently. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

17 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

So education is now just a personal choice, the same as getting your nails done? Society doesn't benefit from people being educated? 

 

Some taxpayers don't need free education. I am done with higher education and if we have kids, we'll probably be able to afford to pay their tuition. My spouse doesn't have any student loans left. Guess what, I want my taxes to pay for other people's education and I want kids to be able to start in life on equal footing. I don't want my taxes to go to the military. How come no one ever asks how we're going to pay for all the senseless wars? But education, nah, that doesn't matter apparently. 

Education (in the scope of this subject) is subjective. Not everyone needs a post-secondary education, especially to know how to utilize skills/knowledge for desired market value.

 

Especially when discussing it in a market sense, we're talking about an investment, which means its a risk. In capitalism, those who want the rewards bear the risk, which means they might have chosen wrong and need to re-evaluate their choices. Just like how businesses fail, so do people. 

 

These sort of risks aren't something that should be subsidized, especially on the scale demanded. Even the most well-intended version that perhaps allocates "free" funding toward "needed" backgrounds is also a risk because not even the government can tell people what someone's market value will be. Rather, it places the government on the hook should that person's risk not bear expected returns. There's no way this winds up anything but a colossal waste of money.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

4 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

Education (in the scope of this subject) is subjective. Not everyone needs a post-secondary education, especially to know how to utilize skills/knowledge for desired market value.

 

Especially when discussing it in a market sense, we're talking about an investment, which means its a risk. In capitalism, those who want the rewards bear the risk, which means they might have chosen wrong and need to re-evaluate their choices. Just like how businesses fail, so do people. 

 

These sort of risks aren't something that should be subsidized, especially on the scale demanded. Even the most well-intended version that perhaps allocates "free" funding toward "needed" backgrounds is also a risk because not even the government can tell people what someone's market value will be. Rather, it places the government on the hook should that person's risk not bear expected returns. There's no way this winds up anything but a colossal waste of money.

I see, so you only see education as a means to increase market value, you don't think it has an intrinsic value in and of itself and you don't think a well educated society is a better society. You also don't see how student loan debt cripples young people and prevents them from starting a family and consuming more, therefore making the economy stronger. 

 

I don't know what else to say to you. I'm glad I grew up in a different country where I could get my education for free and where rich kids (especially dumb and lazy ones) don't have an advantage when it comes to higher education. 

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

9 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

I see, so you only see education as a means to increase market value, you don't think it has an intrinsic value in and of itself and you don't think a well educated society is a better society. You also don't see how student loan debt cripples young people and prevents them from starting a family and consuming more, therefore making the economy stronger. 

 

I don't know what else to say to you. I'm glad I grew up in a different country where I could get my education for free and where rich kids (especially dumb and lazy ones) don't have an advantage when it comes to higher education. 

Dumb and lazy people don't have an advantage, we've seen countless millionaires and billionaires blow through their money and wind up deadbeats like anyone else. To maintain their wealth they can't be (too) dumb.

 

Also, the idea that taxpayers be on the hook to pay for any subjective "personal growth" knowledge, knowing the obvious wastefulness of this, is even more comical than the economic argument. I'm sure other countries don't mind wasting their money on things like this, and if that's a preference, those countries are an option for people who love throwing money away.

 

I used to think like this when I got my first degree. I simultaneously used to think that a non-religious society would inherently be a better one. Reality, however, helped me understand (since I prefer reality) that the same irrational afflictions people suffer from don't cease just because they went to post-secondary, or just because they're irreligious like me. Perspective.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Orangesapples 1,954]

3 minutes ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

 

 

Also, the idea that taxpayers be on the hook to pay for any subjective "personal growth" knowledge, knowing the obvious wastefulness of this, is even more comical than the economic argument. I'm sure other countries don't mind wasting their money on things like this, and if that's a preference, those countries are an option for people who love throwing money away.

 

 

You obviously think education is a waste. I don't know what to tell you. The real money waster is the military but no one talks about that. 

Bye

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

7 minutes ago, Orangesapples said:

You obviously think education is a waste. I don't know what to tell you. The real money waster is the military but no one talks about that. 

Bye

It's not a waste if taxpayers aren't paying for it. 

 

Then it's entirely up to the person who spent the money and time to decide whether or not it was a waste.

 

It also means if they don't like the results, its no one else's fault but their own. Government funding it means its our (taxpayers') fault if they don't get expected results, which means we should be on the hook for this and whatever other "dumb" choices people make that we have no business funding. No thanks.

 

Wars.. they aren't given blanket approval like this idea. Each war needs authorization. That authorization is from elected officials accountable to the public. So they get the blessing from citizens for that. The entitled who demand programs like this would similarly not demand accountability in the same fashion, each person is entitled to waste their entitled "free education" on whatever they felt like, and where that ends, who knows. Even more proof that this is a horrible idea.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

2 hours ago, yuna628 said:

How about out of the OC bubble though? You won't find so many good things, particularly in inner-city schools.

 

2 hours ago, Orangesapples said:

Here in OC there are some great schools. My spouse went to a public school and he's pretty smart, too. 

You don't have to travel very far from the OC to see failing schools. Just head on up the 5 to East LA or the 405 to South LA to see some failing schools. That's why the LA USD is failing with dropping enrollment year after year. 

[Orangesapples 1,954]

1 minute ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

 

You don't have to travel very far from the OC to see failing schools. Just head on up the 5 to East LA or the 405 to South LA to see some failing schools. That's why the LA USD is failing with dropping enrollment year after year. 

And if we make K-12 not free the problems will disappear? 

 

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

18 hours ago, laylalex said:

Why shouldn't all Americans have access to educational opportunities? I really don't mean to be disrespectful in any way to people who have served our country in the military, but why shouldn't more Americans get a leg up, particularly those who come from the working classes? We can do this for all of us, if those of us with more (and I am one who falls in that category) give a little more. I want us all to succeed. There are plenty of people for whom the military is not a realistic option -- why should the door be closed to them?

 

BTW, I don't like the use of "GI Bill" here at all. I just want to make that clear.

You can have educational opportunites by going to lower cost public universities and community college to start. I am more than fine for the first two years of community/vocational college to be free.

 

But I think there should be rules on it just like if you used the GI Bill. So if you are using the GI Bill and you fail a class or drop out past the drop out date then YOU have to pay the VA back for that class. So I would want those type of rules on any sort of community college being offered. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Cyberfx1024