Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage

[Portlander 0]

dang - thats pretty darned good. Modern diesel engines are actually less polluting than gas engines too, and biodiesel is a cinch to fuel your car with. No changes necessary at all...

[zyggy 9]

If we all turned just 1/3 of our gasoline engline into diesel engines, we wouldn't need all the oil that we get from Saudi Arabia and a few other countries run by tin pot dictators.

This is misleading at best. Diesel #2 is petroleum, just like gasoline. We would only reduce our dependency with diesel only if we went with biodiesel. But we could do that with ethanol, too. Of course, it is much easier job with biodiesel, since no conversion is required.

Actually we would because refining diesel is more efficient and takes less oil (and energy) to make and it gets better fuel economy so we would use less. I still don't understand why there is such widespread opposition to clean diesel in this country...

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Partly may be the image of diesel in the US--as well as the dearth of diesel-engine development by US vehicle manufacturers.

One example is the 350-diesel (5.7 L V-8) made by GM in the late 1970's; unfortunately, GM "bastardised" this diesel from the existing 5.7 L V-8 petrol engine, without correcting for the thermodynamic properties (higher pressures, etc).

With a well-maintained DICOR-turbo, you can actually get:

• almost as much bhp/L as with a carburetted sparker (© 52)--partly compensated by the higher torque
  
• lower fuel usage
  
• somewhat higher noise, but not excessive (I actually test-drove a Passat-TDI once, and found I could listen to the radio inside it at normal--not "freeze-on-loudest-setting"--volume), partly due to new fuel-pump design
  

I guess the opposition must be due to not wanting to provide more diesel-equipped stations.

[TerryC 0]

My older brother had a Plymouth Valiant slant-6 when he was poor and in medical school. He ran it over 300,000 then overhauled it and ran it another 40 thousand or so.

My Dad had a 1962 Chevrolet Biscayne 6-cyl that he ran for about 120,000 miles. I then bought it from him, put in a 427 and built a street machine. I sold the six banger to a friend who used it untouched for two seasons in a 6-cyl hobby class stock car.....running wide open in second gear for lap after lap. He then sold it to our local cab company who put it in one of their cabs and ran it another five or six years. All of that probably totaled well over 300,000 miles of normal use.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

My older brother had a Plymouth Valiant slant-6 when he was poor and in medical school. He ran it over 300,000 then overhauled it and ran it another 40 thousand or so.

My Dad had a 1962 Chevrolet Biscayne 6-cyl that he ran for about 120,000 miles. I then bought it from him, put in a 427 and built a street machine. I sold the six banger to a friend who used it untouched for two seasons in a 6-cyl hobby class stock car.....running wide open in second gear for lap after lap. He then sold it to our local cab company who put it in one of their cabs and ran it another five or six years. All of that probably totaled well over 300,000 miles of normal use.

The old slant-6 was considered to be almost "unkillable". Unfortunately, on Valiants and Darts (some of which survive) the bodywork was/is grossly rust-prone--resulting in considerable numbers of Darts and Valiants being effectively buried with engines in excellent condition (unfortunately, the body was totally rotten by then).

That may be the reason that many think that Yank-built engines cannot go 300K miles--because the body that's mounted on them will oft become slush long before.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

If we all turned just 1/3 of our gasoline engline into diesel engines, we wouldn't need all the oil that we get from Saudi Arabia and a few other countries run by tin pot dictators.

This is misleading at best. Diesel #2 is petroleum, just like gasoline. We would only reduce our dependency with diesel only if we went with biodiesel. But we could do that with ethanol, too. Of course, it is much easier job with biodiesel, since no conversion is required.

Actually we would because refining diesel is more efficient and takes less oil (and energy) to make and it gets better fuel economy so we would use less. I still don't understand why there is such widespread opposition to clean diesel in this country...

Americans still believe it's noisy, dirty and diesel fuel is hard to find. All that has changed.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So is there a consensus here that although hybrids offer higher fuel efficiency, in the long run we'd be better off with a diesel?

[GaryC 7]

So is there a consensus here that although hybrids offer higher fuel efficiency, in the long run we'd be better off with a diesel?

The point of the story wasn't to say we should buy a Hummer instead of a Prius. The point was that everything isn't what it seems to be. While a Prius may go further on a gallon of gas it will at the same time cost more to maintain and pollute the environment because of the batteries. Diesel or gas, you better off buying an economy car than a Prius.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So is there a consensus here that although hybrids offer higher fuel efficiency, in the long run we'd be better off with a diesel?

The point of the story wasn't to say we should buy a Hummer instead of a Prius. The point was that everything isn't what it seems to be. While a Prius may go further on a gallon of gas it will at the same time cost more to maintain and pollute the environment because of the batteries. Diesel or gas, you better off buying an economy car than a Prius.

Phew...that's a lot more sensible than saying go buy a Hummer.

I would be curious to know what scientific studies are saying about this - it makes sense about some kind of trade-off (battery production and disposal), however, I believe that possible advancements in battery technology could lengthen the lifetime as well as reduce the environment waste.

[Yodrak 7]

No, I don't think it is silly to make such comparisons. I think it's a very valuable, essential, exercise.

I'm not commenting on the validity of this particular comparison, but all too often people propose fixes for problems without taking into consideration the bigger picture beyond the immediate issue at hand, and the net value of a proposed solution may well be a cost rather than a benefit. The cure can be worse than the disease if we don't take all factors into consideration.

Yodrak

Hi, all

Just to add to the debate...

These links are worth checking out:

.....

Why the comparison was even made is silly.

[Yodrak 7]

The heart of the matter.

Yodrak

..... If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - ... fix that lead foot.

.....

Edited June 15, 2007 by Yodrak

[one...two...tree 2,762]

No, I don't think it is silly to make such comparisons. I think it's a very valuable, essential, exercise.

I'm not commenting on the validity of this particular comparison, but all too often people propose fixes for problems without taking into consideration the bigger picture beyond the immediate issue at hand, and the net value of a proposed solution may well be a cost rather than a benefit. The cure can be worse than the disease if we don't take all factors into consideration.

Yodrak

Hi, all

Just to add to the debate...

These links are worth checking out:

.....

Why the comparison was even made is silly.

In general I agree. However, with regard to the research and development of hybrid cars, the trade-off factors had been explored and discussed. Electric cars are nothing new. What is new is that people are buying more hybrids and there is an assumption being made with the original article that the Prius' popularity is solely for it's proposed 'greenness'. My hunch is that the gas prices have had the biggest impact on the boost in sales.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Almost every car my dad has owned is a diesel - with which he used to get between 35-42 mpg.

A general few things to note with diesels:

1) The acceleration isn't as good compared to an equivalent petrol engine (for people who care about such things).

2) It can take longer to start - esp in winter as the fuel is less volatile you have to wait for the glow plugs to heat up.

3) The engine has to be serviced more often - diesel fuel being sootier, builds up engine residue rather quickly (again, compared to an equivalent petrol engine).

[Cassie 8]

In general I agree. However, with regard to the research and development of hybrid cars, the trade-off factors had been explored and discussed. Electric cars are nothing new. What is new is that people are buying more hybrids and there is an assumption being made with the original article that the Prius' popularity is solely for it's proposed 'greenness'. My hunch is that the gas prices have had the biggest impact on the boost in sales.

Completely agree, along with the increase of sales pitches stressing fuel efficiency.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

In general I agree. However, with regard to the research and development of hybrid cars, the trade-off factors had been explored and discussed. Electric cars are nothing new. What is new is that people are buying more hybrids and there is an assumption being made with the original article that the Prius' popularity is solely for it's proposed 'greenness'. My hunch is that the gas prices have had the biggest impact on the boost in sales.

Completely agree, along with the increase of sales pitches stressing fuel efficiency.

Cassie, what is your average MPG with your Prius?