Poll: 63% of Americans favor letting illegal immigrants become citizens if they pass a background check and learn English

[Sofiyya 1,687]

so the pro-amnesty people are short-sighted and stupid? while the anti-amnesty people are t3h smartz?

I wouldn't use the word stupid. Short sighted is applicable though after the lessons taught to us after the '86 amnesty disaster. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I will not be fooled again.

I would use the word stupid. The illegals are certainly smarter than those legals who support them. It is a biological imperative to act in one's best interest. Those who advocate mercy and amnesty are proclaiming that the illegals are acting in their own self-interest by coming here for a better life and opportunity, but they are not smart enough to realize that their own self-interest is damaged in the process. This is not natural, and indicates a lack of an ability to discern one's own self-interest and to put a limit on acts that threaten their own ability to maintain their society. The kindest thing I can say is there are blinders on, because the contradictions are glaring to those who have not lost their ability to set limits and realize their own self-interest.

If we're talking about 'self-interest' I'd suggest we apply that argument to recent elections - where people en-masse choose to vote for candidates who singularly fail to represent their self-interest. Isn't that at least partly why, for all their promises, the government adopts a business as usual approach to issues like illegal immigration.

Short of a miracle, or someone really radical stepping up I don't see any significant progress being made on this issue which will result in anything except a 'short-term' impact.

I agree. Americans have been desensitized to what is in their best interest, and it's evident in many arenas of life, including how they vote, and their growing disinterest in preserving norms and culture.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

Numbers? Bullshite! There are, for example, just below 650,000 illegals that are currently fugitives that will be forgiven and will have their evading the law validated by th government. It's not the numbers. Surely, we can handle 650,000 fugitives and get rid of them as has already been ordered. But that is, for some reason, not what the Senate wants to do. And it ain't because of numbers. So, the question still stands: What is it that makes them better than any American and his/her family?

It's not about whether they're 'better' or 'more worthy'. Its that there's a lot of them - and trying to prosecute each and every one of them under the current removal/appeals processes would be not unlike prosecuting jay-walkers in New York City.

What about those fugitives. There ain't that many of them and they still stand to get a free ride. The Senate specifically rejected to carry out the courts orders. Why? Numbers? Gimme a break. We managed to order all of them deported - that wouldn't have happened if the numbers couldn't be handled. The numers argument doesn't fly. Which means that my questions still stands: Why are they above the law?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

anyway.. for the ones proposing the immediate deportation, what about the ones who have USC kids? where are you gonna leave those babies? or are you gonna deport USC's?? same for people with older kids.. those kids grew in the US, all they know its in here, u just can't deport his/her folks and leave them in the US alone, or deport them too..

That's for the parents to decide, isn't it? A USC child cannot sponsor a parent until the child reaches the age of 21. Those are the rules. What ever happened too taking responsibility for one's actions? Why are the results of their infractions the government's problem? It's the problem of the person who made the choice to illegally set-up shop here. This problems extends to those that depend on that person. Again, this happens every day to Americans that their lives and families are disrupted because someone in the family chose to pursue a wrong path. They have to deal with that an so does the illegal crowd and their offspring. It's their problem, not mine.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

Numbers? Bullshite! There are, for example, just below 650,000 illegals that are currently fugitives that will be forgiven and will have their evading the law validated by th government. It's not the numbers. Surely, we can handle 650,000 fugitives and get rid of them as has already been ordered. But that is, for some reason, not what the Senate wants to do. And it ain't because of numbers. So, the question still stands: What is it that makes them better than any American and his/her family?

It's not about whether they're 'better' or 'more worthy'. Its that there's a lot of them - and trying to prosecute each and every one of them under the current removal/appeals processes would be not unlike prosecuting jay-walkers in New York City.

What about those fugitives. There ain't that many of them and they still stand to get a free ride. The Senate specifically rejected to carry out the courts orders. Why? Numbers? Gimme a break. We managed to order all of them deported - that wouldn't have happened if the numbers couldn't be handled. The numers argument doesn't fly. Which means that my questions still stands: Why are they above the law?

Noone is above the law. But if the law (as it stands) is practically unenforceable, something has to give. The 650,000 figure is only those who have ignored deportation orders - the actual number of illegals is much higher.

Even so, 650,000 people is a lot in itself - the population of a small-medium sized town. That presents no small logistical problems for law enforcement to apprehend and detain them.

Edited June 18, 2007 by erekose

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

Numbers? Bullshite! There are, for example, just below 650,000 illegals that are currently fugitives that will be forgiven and will have their evading the law validated by th government. It's not the numbers. Surely, we can handle 650,000 fugitives and get rid of them as has already been ordered. But that is, for some reason, not what the Senate wants to do. And it ain't because of numbers. So, the question still stands: What is it that makes them better than any American and his/her family?

It's not about whether they're 'better' or 'more worthy'. Its that there's a lot of them - and trying to prosecute each and every one of them under the current removal/appeals processes would be not unlike prosecuting jay-walkers in New York City.

What about those fugitives. There ain't that many of them and they still stand to get a free ride. The Senate specifically rejected to carry out the courts orders. Why? Numbers? Gimme a break. We managed to order all of them deported - that wouldn't have happened if the numbers couldn't be handled. The numers argument doesn't fly. Which means that my questions still stands: Why are they above the law?

Noone is above the law. But if the law (as it stands) is practically unenforceable, something has to give. The 650,000 figure is only those who have ignored deportation orders - the actual number of illegals is much higher.

Even so, 650,000 people is a lot in itself - the population of a small-medium sized town. That presents no small logistical problems for law enforcement to apprehend and detain them.

If the premise is that aw enforcement cannot handle a mere 650K (which, in fact, it already had as they would otherwise not have been ordered deported) fugitives, then the entire "immigration reform" comes to a free fall. No enforcement, no amnesty, no guest worker program. I just don't see why some fugitives should be forgiven while others won't. How that does not equate to them being above the law is beyond me. No arrest warrant has yet been terminated because there were too many fugitives. I don't know how many active warrants are out there but I have a feeling that the number of warrants against Americans is not all that small either and those will be carried out as soon as law enforcement get their hand on those folks. The illegals that are fugitives, on the other hand, are abut to enjoy special protections from the US Senate? Yeah, that sounds just.

Edited June 18, 2007 by ET-US2004

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It isn't an injustice to make them go home. It is justice.

Start looking at this on a case-by-case basis, and that black-and-white facade will quickly reveal various shades of grey.

Especially when you start to look at USCs who have resident illegal relatives, and illegal parents of USC children. If that were to happen, those protests in the south would only be the beginning IMO.

Again, we're disrupting the lives of American families each and every day. Millions of them. Why? Because one or more members of that family has broken the law. And nobody's marching. Those are Americans, mind you. What makes the illegal crowd better so that they need to be above the law? What exactly is it that entitles them and their families to better treatment than what a law breaking American and his family receives?

Numbers.

Numbers? Bullshite! There are, for example, just below 650,000 illegals that are currently fugitives that will be forgiven and will have their evading the law validated by th government. It's not the numbers. Surely, we can handle 650,000 fugitives and get rid of them as has already been ordered. But that is, for some reason, not what the Senate wants to do. And it ain't because of numbers. So, the question still stands: What is it that makes them better than any American and his/her family?

It's not about whether they're 'better' or 'more worthy'. Its that there's a lot of them - and trying to prosecute each and every one of them under the current removal/appeals processes would be not unlike prosecuting jay-walkers in New York City.

What about those fugitives. There ain't that many of them and they still stand to get a free ride. The Senate specifically rejected to carry out the courts orders. Why? Numbers? Gimme a break. We managed to order all of them deported - that wouldn't have happened if the numbers couldn't be handled. The numers argument doesn't fly. Which means that my questions still stands: Why are they above the law?

Noone is above the law. But if the law (as it stands) is practically unenforceable, something has to give. The 650,000 figure is only those who have ignored deportation orders - the actual number of illegals is much higher.

Even so, 650,000 people is a lot in itself - the population of a small-medium sized town. That presents no small logistical problems for law enforcement to apprehend and detain them.

If the premise is that aw enforcement cannot handle a mere 650K (which, in fact, it already had as they would otherwise not have been ordered deported) fugitives, then the entire "immigration reform" comes to a free fall. No enforcement, no amnesty, no guest worker program. I just don't see why some fugitives should be forgiven while others won't. How that does not equate to them being above the law is beyond me. No arrest warrant has yet been terminated because there were too many fugitives. I don't know how many active warrants are out there but I have a feeling that the number of warrants against Americans is not all that small either and those will be carried out as soon as law enforcement get their hand on those folks. The illegals that are fugitives, on the other hand, are abut to enjoy special protections from the US Senate? Yeah, that sounds just.

Clearly they can't handle it - otherwise those people would not be at large. One would need only look at the number of illegals in the country vs the number who have actually been arrested and put through a process of law. How many times does 650,000 go into 12-20 million (the very approximate estimate of the total illegal population nationwide)? That BTW - is approximately 5% of the total US population.

Similarly, when we talking about such large numbers of people - its hard to see how anything can be achieved without a significant increase in manpower in law-enforcement. That probably not be past-due - but there always seems to be an inexhaustible supply of money to spend on other things - but never on this.

Not saying that something shouldn't be done - clearly we need to be doing something different from the business as usual approach. But at the same time - its that business as usual attitude that is the problem. I've not seen much to suggest that any of the people that we've elected into office are ruthless enough to satisfy the demands from the 'zero-tolerance' camp.

Edited June 18, 2007 by erekose

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If the premise is that law enforcement cannot handle a mere 650K (which, in fact, it already had as they would otherwise not have been ordered deported) fugitives, then the entire "immigration reform" comes to a free fall. No enforcement, no amnesty, no guest worker program. I just don't see why some fugitives should be forgiven while others won't. How that does not equate to them being above the law is beyond me. No arrest warrant has yet been terminated because there were too many fugitives. I don't know how many active warrants are out there but I have a feeling that the number of warrants against Americans is not all that small either and those will be carried out as soon as law enforcement get their hand on those folks. The illegals that are fugitives, on the other hand, are abut to enjoy special protections from the US Senate? Yeah, that sounds just.

Clearly they can't handle it - otherwise those people would not be at large. One would need only look at the number of illegals in the country vs the number who have actually been arrested and put through a process of law. How many times does 650,000 go into 12-20 million (the very approximate estimate of the total illegal population nationwide)? That BTW - is approximately 5% of the total US population.

Similarly, when we talking about such large numbers of people - its hard to see how anything can be achieved without a significant increase in manpower in law-enforcement. That probably not be past-due - but there always seems to be an inexhaustible supply of money to spend on other things - but never on this.

Not saying that something shouldn't be done - clearly we need to be doing something different from the business as usual approach. But at the same time - its that business as usual attitude that is the problem. I've not seen much to suggest that any of the people that we've elected into office are ruthless enough to satisfy the demands from the 'zero-tolerance' camp.

You're still avoiding the question: How is it just that American fugitives will stay on the warrant list and will be apprehended and jailed as soon as any law enforcement can get their hands on them while the illegal fugitives will have the court orders against them effectively dropped? If the fact that they're at large is proof that the government can't handle the problem and that is then the justification for the government to rescind the court orders which they are evading should this approach then not also benefit the Americans at large same as the illegals?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If the premise is that law enforcement cannot handle a mere 650K (which, in fact, it already had as they would otherwise not have been ordered deported) fugitives, then the entire "immigration reform" comes to a free fall. No enforcement, no amnesty, no guest worker program. I just don't see why some fugitives should be forgiven while others won't. How that does not equate to them being above the law is beyond me. No arrest warrant has yet been terminated because there were too many fugitives. I don't know how many active warrants are out there but I have a feeling that the number of warrants against Americans is not all that small either and those will be carried out as soon as law enforcement get their hand on those folks. The illegals that are fugitives, on the other hand, are abut to enjoy special protections from the US Senate? Yeah, that sounds just.

Clearly they can't handle it - otherwise those people would not be at large. One would need only look at the number of illegals in the country vs the number who have actually been arrested and put through a process of law. How many times does 650,000 go into 12-20 million (the very approximate estimate of the total illegal population nationwide)? That BTW - is approximately 5% of the total US population.

Similarly, when we talking about such large numbers of people - its hard to see how anything can be achieved without a significant increase in manpower in law-enforcement. That probably not be past-due - but there always seems to be an inexhaustible supply of money to spend on other things - but never on this.

Not saying that something shouldn't be done - clearly we need to be doing something different from the business as usual approach. But at the same time - its that business as usual attitude that is the problem. I've not seen much to suggest that any of the people that we've elected into office are ruthless enough to satisfy the demands from the 'zero-tolerance' camp.

You're still avoiding the question: How is it just that American fugitives will stay on the warrant list and will be apprehended and jailed as soon as any law enforcement can get their hands on them while the illegal fugitives will have the court orders against them effectively dropped? If the fact that they're at large is proof that the government can't handle the problem and that is then the justification for the government to rescind the court orders which they are evading should this approach then not also benefit the Americans at large same as the illegals?

You're asking me as though I agree with it...

This would be your answer...

Coordinated through an aggressive, but undermanned and underfunded ICE initiative known as the National Fugitive Operations Program, the 18 fugitive teams translate to barely 200 agents looking for nearly a half-million criminal aliens and absconders hiding in communities from Seattle and Los Angeles to Miami and New York City.

"How can we expect so few agents to effectively deal with such a vast problem?" asked Michael W. Cutler, a retired U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) senior agent who spent 31 years with the agency as a criminal investigator and intelligence specialist.

"The answer is, of course, we can't," he said.

...

A month long investigation by The Washington Times, which included interviews with ICE supervisors and agents, other law-enforcement officials and immigration experts from Washington state to California and Florida, showed that the agency has begun a reinvigorated program aimed at apprehending America's most dangerous fugitive aliens.

But the inquiry also found that the ICE Office of Detention and Removal continues to be the victim of long-standing budgetary constraints and rigidly pursued, often politically dictated policies that have devoted five times as much manpower and resources to border enforcement than to interior-enforcement efforts.

"They're being asked to do an incredibly dangerous job, one in which they are perilously outnumbered," Mr. Cutler said. "Until we adequately fund this program, the security of our country and the safety of our people will remain in jeopardy."

Los Angeles' 10-member team, for example, is responsible for the detection and detention of criminal aliens in six Southern California counties, with an area of more than 35,000 square miles and a population of about 15 million people.

...

Many ICE supervisors and agents think that both Republicans and Democrats in Congress and the White House repeatedly have ignored rapidly rising numbers of aliens in America, including violent criminals — succumbing to lobbying efforts by immigration advocates and business leaders, many of whom contribute huge sums of money to both political parties.

The pro-immigration lobby is strong and growing, assisted by various organizations, legal defense funds and churches, including the influential Roman Catholic Archdiocese in Los Angeles, which denounced the Border Patrol arrests of 420 illegal aliens at inland Southern California communities.

At a press conference last month, the Rev. Michael D. Gutierrez, pastor at St. Anne's Catholic Church in Santa Monica, backed by three dozen priests from the Los Angeles Archdiocese, reminded Border Patrol officials that "some of your parents and grandparents also were immigrants and that the undocumented are also today your brothers and sisters."

...

The Los Angeles Police Department, for example, has a long-standing policy known as "Special Order 40" that prohibits its officers from informing federal immigration officials about illegal aliens they discover during the normal course of their duties. Adopted by the department in 1979, the order is supposed to assuage the fears of illegal aliens that they may be deported if they seek assistance from local law enforcement.

...

Sanctuary laws also are in place in varying degrees in major cities, including San Francisco; New York; Chicago; San Diego; Austin, Texas; and Houston. Several cities prohibit their employees from even asking about a person's immigration status.

On July 7, the House voted down an amendment by Rep. Steve King, Iowa Republican, that would have forced state and local police officers to report illegal aliens to federal authorities. Mr. King had sought to include the amendment as part of the Commerce-Justice-State Department appropriations bill.

...

The five-term congressman has introduced the Clear Law Enforcement for Alien Removal Act, or CLEAR Act, that would, among other things, give 650,000 state and local police officers authority to enforce immigration law. The pending bill has 115 co-sponsors of both parties and has been endorsed by more than 50 law-enforcement agencies.

"America's men and women wearing the badge and making our streets safer deserve better than a dangerously inefficient and unresponsive immigration system that asks them to arrest and re-arrest any number of 80,000 criminal aliens that our failed federal system put there to begin with," he said.

But the bill remains stalled in committee.

...

As part of their effort, ICE already has introduced "Operation Compliance," which seeks to identify foreign nationals who have lost an immigration appeal and were ordered removed. Begun in Connecticut and now operating in Atlanta and Denver, the program puts ICE agents in the courtroom to take into custody those who lose their immigration appeal.

Those detained remain in custody at ICE detention centers until their appeals are exhausted or they post bail. The program addresses the fact that fewer than 15 percent of those aliens ordered to an immigration hearing ever appear.

Immigration advocates have opposed the program and the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA), which boasts about 8,000 members, has sought information on potential clients "who have been detained" in its wake.

Marshall Fitz, associate director of advocacy for the AILA, said Operation Compliance groups illegal immigrants who have been convicted of crimes with those who have not — a reality he called "unfair." He called it a "blanket policy" that is in violation of basic due-process principles.

Edited June 18, 2007 by erekose

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If the premise is that law enforcement cannot handle a mere 650K (which, in fact, it already had as they would otherwise not have been ordered deported) fugitives, then the entire "immigration reform" comes to a free fall. No enforcement, no amnesty, no guest worker program. I just don't see why some fugitives should be forgiven while others won't. How that does not equate to them being above the law is beyond me. No arrest warrant has yet been terminated because there were too many fugitives. I don't know how many active warrants are out there but I have a feeling that the number of warrants against Americans is not all that small either and those will be carried out as soon as law enforcement get their hand on those folks. The illegals that are fugitives, on the other hand, are abut to enjoy special protections from the US Senate? Yeah, that sounds just.

Clearly they can't handle it - otherwise those people would not be at large. One would need only look at the number of illegals in the country vs the number who have actually been arrested and put through a process of law. How many times does 650,000 go into 12-20 million (the very approximate estimate of the total illegal population nationwide)? That BTW - is approximately 5% of the total US population.

Similarly, when we talking about such large numbers of people - its hard to see how anything can be achieved without a significant increase in manpower in law-enforcement. That probably not be past-due - but there always seems to be an inexhaustible supply of money to spend on other things - but never on this.

Not saying that something shouldn't be done - clearly we need to be doing something different from the business as usual approach. But at the same time - its that business as usual attitude that is the problem. I've not seen much to suggest that any of the people that we've elected into office are ruthless enough to satisfy the demands from the 'zero-tolerance' camp.

You're still avoiding the question: How is it just that American fugitives will stay on the warrant list and will be apprehended and jailed as soon as any law enforcement can get their hands on them while the illegal fugitives will have the court orders against them effectively dropped? If the fact that they're at large is proof that the government can't handle the problem and that is then the justification for the government to rescind the court orders which they are evading should this approach then not also benefit the Americans at large same as the illegals?

You're asking me as though I agree with it...

This would be your answer...

Did you not say earlier that capitulating is the inevitable "solution"?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If the premise is that law enforcement cannot handle a mere 650K (which, in fact, it already had as they would otherwise not have been ordered deported) fugitives, then the entire "immigration reform" comes to a free fall. No enforcement, no amnesty, no guest worker program. I just don't see why some fugitives should be forgiven while others won't. How that does not equate to them being above the law is beyond me. No arrest warrant has yet been terminated because there were too many fugitives. I don't know how many active warrants are out there but I have a feeling that the number of warrants against Americans is not all that small either and those will be carried out as soon as law enforcement get their hand on those folks. The illegals that are fugitives, on the other hand, are abut to enjoy special protections from the US Senate? Yeah, that sounds just.

Clearly they can't handle it - otherwise those people would not be at large. One would need only look at the number of illegals in the country vs the number who have actually been arrested and put through a process of law. How many times does 650,000 go into 12-20 million (the very approximate estimate of the total illegal population nationwide)? That BTW - is approximately 5% of the total US population.

Similarly, when we talking about such large numbers of people - its hard to see how anything can be achieved without a significant increase in manpower in law-enforcement. That probably not be past-due - but there always seems to be an inexhaustible supply of money to spend on other things - but never on this.

Not saying that something shouldn't be done - clearly we need to be doing something different from the business as usual approach. But at the same time - its that business as usual attitude that is the problem. I've not seen much to suggest that any of the people that we've elected into office are ruthless enough to satisfy the demands from the 'zero-tolerance' camp.

You're still avoiding the question: How is it just that American fugitives will stay on the warrant list and will be apprehended and jailed as soon as any law enforcement can get their hands on them while the illegal fugitives will have the court orders against them effectively dropped? If the fact that they're at large is proof that the government can't handle the problem and that is then the justification for the government to rescind the court orders which they are evading should this approach then not also benefit the Americans at large same as the illegals?

You're asking me as though I agree with it...

This would be your answer...

Did you not say earlier that capitulating is the inevitable "solution"?

I said I believe an amnesty is inevitable, given the continued lack of political leadership on this issue. I didn't say it was the solution.

[homesick_american 1]

So you think the penalties are fair?

Caro

Yes.